I hope they decide correctly, but I doubt they will do so! Regardless of ideological orientation, European people will increasingly fight the austerity and nation-destroying measures.

mentioned on another thread if they tell the people they owe money to kiss off they will have a hard time getting future loans for projects so what else can they really do?

Why is everything always financed on the backs of the poor? (and I am talking about this country as well)

something has to give or in other words perhaps its time that the people as a whole learn to compromise because no one can have everything they want in life either in Greece nor here in the US.

the global corporatists, aren't compromising and stealing more and more. You can not compromise with those who would enslave you.

If anybody is stealing, its the Greeks.

I wish that the 99% of people who live on this planet were in the position where they could "compromise". That is a bourgeoisie game amongst the top players. For the poor in this world their entire life is a compromise - just staying alive is at the whim of those who control all the wealth.

They sure seem to get just about anything they want.

I'm not buying that compromise has to be only for the working class. Not for an instant. I do not accept that compromise should be first from the working class. Or even that compromise from the working class is overly significant in the grander scheme.

and instead said people as a whole, that means rich and poor.
Somehow we need to learn to work together to find solutions that we can come to agree while not perfect work well enough to get the job done.

The most commonly proposed and actually publicly debated solutions put the bulk, if not the entirety of the "compromise" on the shoulders of the working and poor. That was the thrust of the first sentence of that paragraph, which you have quoted. Then, to build on that frame, I continued:

"I do not accept that compromise should be first from the working class. Or even that compromise from the working class is overly significant in the grander scheme. "


I do not accept that we need rich and poor to compromise. Poor and working class people have been compromised. It is the turn of the rich. That is where this needs to start. I do not accept that the beginning step starts with the poor and the working class giving up even more of what little they have. Not even if the rich give up a little too.

This starts with the ones who have not compromised yet, and only then, if that is still not enough, do we look back for yet more compromise from the rest of us.

the goals for those near the bottom of the 99% in the world (and yes I am one of those) need to be realistic ones as well.

How much more realistic do we need to be than "I would like to be able to keep my home and afford food and clothing"?

We need systemic change.

Remember the goal isnt to crush the rich its to try to find a way that lifts us all to a more level field.

But even a 90% tax on anything over a million wouldn't "crush" Romney, or Gates, or any of the rich.

At 90% tax over a million, Romney would still take home more in one year than I would make in 40 years at the best pay I have ever made.

At 90% tax over a million, a Koch still makes more in one year than I would make in two thousand years.

No one is talking about crushing anyone.

The average worker is struggling to meet bills. Now, I think that we could use a lot of serious financial education, and that would help a lot of people make better choices and be more able to survive on what they can make. But that requires investment in education, not cuts.

We need investment. And the rich have made it 100% clear they will not make those investments voluntarily. I dont have any problem with them being rich. I do have a problem with them being thousands of times beyond rich, while people starve and die. I don't want to crush the rich. I do want them to contribute to the system that makes them rich.

That is where any compromise must begin. To begin anywhere else is a waste of time, as well as being immoral.

I could see 40% for those earning over 5 million decreasing by 2% for every million below and zero loopholes for them to avoid paying it.
Furthermore the inheritance should be put back into place in order to blunt the wealth from consolidating among a few people like is happening now.

I don't think we need to go that far. But even what sounds harsh, a flat 90% over a million, with no loopholes, still would hardly be more than an inconvenience for the rich.

In comparison, even a 1% tax increase at 25k a year makes a catastrophic hole in the budget. Minor cuts, or even mere freezing of Medicare, Medicaid, Unemployment, food stamps etc, also make serious and catastrophic problems for thousands or millions of people.

So what do we compromise? A compromise where thousands or millions of people are seriously damaged, and a few people are cosmetically inconvenienced is no compromise I can get behind. Especially when those millions have already given up a lot in the past 10 years, and the few have actually gained rather than lost up to this point.

We offer them a compromise of if there is a national healthcare system that treats everyone we will agree to caps on malpractice lawsuits and or other heath related lawsuits involving drug companies providing it wasnt caused by a criminal act.
After all there are alot of benefits to be had for such a thing, companies and doctors wont have to pay so much for insurance and we can do away with VA and any other current programs because there would be one program that provides fair access to healthcare for everyone regardless of their income level plus it would save money because you wouldnt need to run more than one program.

The rich are cockroaches. You can never totally wipe them out. But you can refuse to feed them after midnight.

Why are they cutting minimum wages? Of what value to paying off the debt would be cutting minimum wages for everyone? Most government workers do NOT get minimum wage. Greece has already fired many government workers. Cutting the minimum wage is just an excuse for corporation to get cheap labor.

There is no compromising with thieves and criminals. The Greek people did not run up the debt. It was a handful of greedy, corrupt politicians in league with some crooked banksters that ran up the debt. The German and American Banksters are using financial weapons of mass destruction to enslave the Greek people.

They should prosecute and put the politicians and banksters in jail. Then negotiate down their debt down like Donald Trump does every few years.

And if they don't have the guts to put the corrupt politicians and banksters in jail then they should default and get out of the EU. Several other countries have defaulted and the resulting economy was better than what austerity is doing to the working class in Greece.

An alternative is orderly, determined default on sovereign debt, and the implementation of policies promoting an independent national economy. I agree with the KKE's proposals in this regard.

but it could not and cannot be allowed because TPTB would have to eat their losses and CDS would have to be honoured...note that the figures concerning how bad it REALLY is (economically speaking - ie how big were the bank losses really) were redacted out of the last detailed "troika" report...where have I seen that before?

The "cataclysmic prospects" - Papademos invoked 9/11 - of a disorderly default are being used as part of the IMF/ECB/EU/state terror campaign. It would seem the people in the square are not budging much while there's tear gas and stun grenades. Terror will have to be upped a notch (in roll the tanks, so to speak) or the government will be toppled or replaced, would be my guess. I hope it's the second.

The government was replaced with the ex-ECB technocrat Papademos, to do his true masters' bidding I would say. That is, impose neoloberal terms at gunpoint as a solution to what was triggered by a banking crisis.

All of this forced austerity is essentially the same as borrowing from a loan shark.
A loan shark who promises you even more money but with very onerous strings attached
until one day you realize your house and everything in it is claimed by the loan shark
and you STILL have bills to pay and mouths to feed.

rough analogy, to be sure, but close.

Meanwhile, Iceland told the loan shark to get stuffed, had a couple years of self imposed austerity,
and last I heard, was doing ok.

so not a bailout package to a government. But since our governments go bankrupt through us paying for inflating a balloon with a big hole in it, that just means they were one step ahead.

Nt.

is that Iceland was not part of the Eurozone and had independent control over its currency.

she may well have to pay higher interest rates to do so.

This whole austerity plan benefits creditors (big banks) at the expense of people.

Whatever happened to the notion that lenders lend at their own risk????

it died in 2008

Lenders lend on collateral or because they know their are legal options to try to regain their money. You will find very few lenders who lend on faith.

I remember one of those buildings from my days in Athens.
IIRC, it's in the midst of the downtown area.
Doesn't look good.
And this will devastate the tourism industry.
Greece gets a lot of bucks from that.
So sad.

.

I have been following at http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2012/02/2012212114832570350.html

"As more than 40 buildings went up in flames, including two historic cinemas and several banks, Athens city centre was left resembling a war zone with cafes and shops smashed and looted as MPs backed the austerity measures by 199 votes to 74 in the single most important ballot in modern Greek history.

The chaos dominated one of the stormiest debates seen in the Greek parliament as MPs argued over a raft of strict measures demanded in return for international aid. Clashes were also reported in Thessaloniki, Patras, Corfu and Crete."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/12/greek-protesters-clash-parliament-austerity

and they are NOT going to be sympathetic to anything concerning workers. They are concerned about $$$.

for those businesses, I say used to because its unlikely their going to have jobs now with the businesses burned down so all that the rioters who are doing who are burning the businesses down are doing is hurting other working people in the end.

Trying to pit working people against each other is a common game of the bourgeoisie and honestly you may find takers here but I'm not one of them.

hard cheese to people who want better than slave wages
then
try telling X to the people who now lost their jobs
or
loss of wages is more important than loss of wages
resolves as
whatever authority says is right

The rioters should be more than happy with that and submit to the austerity plan.

is way too much.

ANd, "rioters"? People are dying of starvation and there's 15000 people at Athens' soup kitchens. I hope you are informed of the details of the package and the actual situation the people have been in.

That's not to say violence is the smartest way.

Especially in "proper" pass the grey poupon circles.

Their own government borrowed the money. They can't expect to keep living like they did on a unsupported credit card binge.

children solved ...............what exactly?

it hasn't been so bad for Iceland.

made it worse just like I believe the violence in greece is making it worse.

Nt.

just one step ahead. Countries save banks, then get downgraded and into trouble.
Trouble that already existed because of cheap borrowing. Whose fault is that?
Who needed to push loans on people ànd governments?

Teh Bubble People

Bailing out banks and sovereign debt are two very different things. Kind of like equating an ATM fee to property taxes.

Iceland, in some ways, followed the normal financial rules. The government carried on paying its own debts; it did not attempt to bailout the banks, but nationalised them to separate out the needed everyday banking functions, and declared the investment parts bankrupt. There was the dispute about refunding the 'guaranteed' amount for foreign savers, which appears to have been settled now - effectively they made foreign savers wait until the assets that the bankrupt investment banks had could be realised (but they did put those savers ahead of bondholders in the queue to be repaid).

In some ways, this looks like less intervention in 'the free market' than bailing out banks - shareholders lose their money first, then bondholders, then depositors. The government stepped in to keep the vital banking services running, while the investment arms were allowed to go bankrupt because they'd made too many bad loans and investments. There was a bit of discrimination in favour of Icelandic depositors (who were paid back immediately, rather than having to wait like the foreign ones (the foreign ones were actually paid by their own governments, so those governments took their place in the queue).

Iceland could be said to have avoided the 'moral hazard' of bailing out banks and thus encouraging bad banker behaviour all over again. It's not been easy for them - the currency plummeted (but that did show the advantage of an independent currency), and the cost of living has gone up. And they still have a lot of their own mortgage issues (many people took out mortgages denominated in Euros, so the currency drop hurt them. 40 percent of mortgages are underwater. But unemployment is only 6.1%.

that is the key, isn't it. Glass-Steagal, and a limit on leverage, and a big banking tax. Hole plugged. Everything else, biggest heist in history.

My point however, that they chose to ignore the Markets and voted no on a bailout (which leads to a manufactured sovereign debt crisis if you do bail out), and are doing fine, stands

or? The unruly unwashed could be getting ideas.

I notice heavy debating on the same topic in the comments on The Guardian. Many Greeks chiming in recently, interesting reading. It seems many UK people see more clearly that Greece is "merely" a test case, and this will be hitting all of us soon. Of course, they have had a big chunk of austerity.

EU leaders (ok, German politicians) seems intent on repeating the mistakes that led to the Great Depression. If you can't see the greek package is destined to creditors and will push normal people into a depression after 4 years of depression, one doesn't read enough. So the goal clearly is not solving the budget. Then, what is?

I don't think the 25% of Germans on 4 euro/hour jobs in temp positions with almost non-existent benefits agree much either. There is a reason Occupy had thousands in several german cities. Besides, the german economy being reliant on export, they are shooting themselves in the foot in a short while. Glass houses and all. Of course, the US and China are their main markets before the EU so they may just be ready to let all the rest of us wither and slave.

It is five past twelve for regular people all over the west to unite, instead of allowing ourselves to be divided though cliches like lazy greek only profiting, which goes for the fat cats and the politicians. Imho, the solution involves revalueing the family, the local community and national sovereignty as well.

Thanks again

bmc

I've found 20% unemployment and a deep recession, but no starvation. Are you sure that's happening?

which may prove hard since I read so much. It was in one of the greek newspapers, I suspect Kathimerini.

Mind you, I didn't read of widespread dying of starvation, to be clear. Prices of produce and necessities are up 20% though.

kind of language? Surely you understand that the principal beneficiaries of the so-called austerity plan will be German and French banks (and U.S. banks to a lesser but still significant extent) who hold large amounts of Greek debt on their balance sheets. Now explain to me why it is in the interest of any working person in Greece or anywhere for that matter to "submit" to a scheme that benefits German and French creditors.

In case you think I'm indulging in hyperbole, the so-called next tranche of aid will be placed in an escrow account with creditors (those self-same German and French banks) being made whole first before the Greek government can use any remaining funds for domestic purposes.

If I lived in Greece, I'd be rioting right now too.

There also could be economic consequences for the Greeks if they refuse to pay any of it back.

Greece is just the test monkey for the fucked up economic policy.

austerity never ever works.

the entire european union is nothing more than borrowing from paul to pay peter.

they are trying like hell to keep Greece from going under, not because they believe it's the right thing to do, but because if they don't all their throats become slit.

They are tossing Greece over the side to save their own asses.

if you believe that the people of Greece, who have an unemployment number of 20%+ should just deal with austerity, it clearly shows just how completely ignorant you are of this colossally screwed up situation is.

The people shouldn't have to pay for their governments fucked up accounting and for the european unions morons looking the other way when they wanted Greece to join the EU.

As always, the people pay the price for the riches fuck ups.

They should have done what Iceland did. Tell the EU to fuck off, declare bankruptcy, prosecute the purpetrators in their own government and dump the euro. Then climb out under their own terms instead of those dictated by the banks that want to parcel off Greek interests.

or are you just trying to be rude and uninformative?

Perhaps instead of being rude, you could use it as an educational moment, no?

Everyone here isn't a know-it-all and Iwould enjoy being corrected if I am wrong.

Alas, you choose not to.

Not being rude, but the situations are very different.

very nice.

You are now blocked due to being rude.

You know, you can catch more flies with sugar and all that.

Sorry if you took it the wrong way.

and in Iceland, the problem was its own banks that had made bad loans and investments, not too much government debt. And since Iceland was already outside the eurozone, saying "do what Iceland did" is very hard advice to follow. Greece would need to set up a new currency, and do it in such a way that all the money isn't sent out of the country, as euros, before the new currency is set up. It may be possible, but it hasn't been done before (Argentina had a somewhat similar situation at the start of the century, but it had pegged the peso to the dollar - it wasn't actually using dollars. So it could remove the peg in one go, while cash, bank accounts, debts etc. were all already clearly denominated in the newly independent currency).

the only real analysis. Greece is but a canary, but given the leverage who knows how big the mess is. The troika redacted that out of their latest report! The point about the icelandic no to a bailout not being a default on sovereign debt is disingenious. And oft-repeated by a couple posters only. Rock on!

Greece is bankrupt. It just can't be called that or the house of cards comes down (CDS...)

Very painful austerity for the long term if they take the bail out, or INCREDIBLY painful austerity for the short term if they default. Defaulting is probably the better option, but it will depend if the current generation is willing to take the hit.

have many choises. They have also the choice of revolution and getting rid of all banksters and politicians, to occupy their lives again without banksters and politicians limiting their choices to pain or more pain.

is a matter of and for the state and banks. Does not really concern ordinary Greeks, who are busy building parastate social networks just to cope and get their dignity and freedom back. Networks of free health care and education, community gardens, meals for the hungry etc., with little or no money involved, you know the drill.

Going back to the drachma is probably the best option, but it will be VERY painful for 15 or 20 years. Probably will be something akin to Germany right after WW2.

Here is a short synopsis.

Greece is in an ugly storm due to incompetent government and predatory capitalists.

First, the government failed to collect tax revenue, or enforce penalties against tax evaders. Next, paying out disability to 20, 000 deceased, etc Spending too much money on military hardware, and worst of all hiding the debt from the public to trick European banks to lend to them.

Goldman Sachs assisted Greece in hiding this debt so the European banks would lend to them. They knowingly did this because they could make major bank betting Greece could not pay back the debt reasonably having this hidden information. Not only that, but banks are swooping in to seize Greek assets dirt cheap now.

Yes, there are people starving in Greece, and many people are abandoning children because they can't feed them. Austerity is making things worse, not better. In my opinion, Greece should leave the Euro zone for many reasons. There are rumors swirling that the military will intervene and throw out the technocrats.