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hue

(4,949 posts)
Sat Jun 9, 2012, 10:15 AM Jun 2012

Wisconsin Recall: The adjusted Final Exit Poll was forced to match an unlikely recorded vote

http://richardcharnin.wordpress.com/2012/06/06/wisconsin-recall-the-adjusted-final-exit-poll-was-forced-to-match-an-unlikely-recorded-vote/

Richard Charnin

June 6, 2012

The media and the exit pollsters have done it again.

Before the first votes were posted, the media reported that based on the exit polls, the election was “too close to call”. But Walker won by 53.2-46.3%, a 173,000 vote margin. There was a significant 7% discrepancy between the unadjusted exit poll and the recorded vote. What caused the red shift?

Forcing the exit poll to match the recorded vote

The Wisconsin exit poll (2547 respondents) indicated that Walker had 53.0% (see the NY Times link below). The 0.2% difference between the Final and the recorded vote was the result of the standard policy of forcing the unadjusted poll to match the vote.
The pollsters claim that the exit poll had a 4.0% margin of error. But they can’t mean the final, adjusted poll because it is always forced to match the recorded vote within 0.5%.

Why did the media not provide the unadjusted exit poll crosstabs? Was it because they knew that they would have to adjust all the crosstabs to match a bogus recorded vote and did not want the public to view the “adjustments”?
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Wisconsin Recall: The adjusted Final Exit Poll was forced to match an unlikely recorded vote (Original Post) hue Jun 2012 OP
Do we even have a democracy anymore? BlueCaliDem Jun 2012 #1
This time Democrats most definitely must go into this recall election thoroughly, and really make Cal33 Jun 2012 #2
I totally agree with you, one hundred percent. BlueCaliDem Jun 2012 #3
I wonder if these are the politicians who never run for public office, but are really the ones Cal33 Jun 2012 #6
K&R'd snot Jun 2012 #4
More on forcing the exit polls to match the recorded vote: bleever Jun 2012 #5
"Unadjusted exit polls" are a crock. Igel Jun 2012 #11
Absolutely magic.... Media announces winner... midnight Jun 2012 #7
We've seen this in Florida over and over... Sancho Jun 2012 #8
Where are the votes that were Flipped, Etc? Ford_Prefect Jun 2012 #9
K&R SunSeeker Jun 2012 #10

BlueCaliDem

(15,438 posts)
1. Do we even have a democracy anymore?
Sat Jun 9, 2012, 11:33 AM
Jun 2012

I read as much of the piece as my simple mind could stand (never had a head for math), but what I've read startles me. Even no one at MSNBC or CurrentTV, for that matter, has reported on these anomalies. In my heart of hearts, without a smidgen of proof just my gut feeling, the votes have been flipped from Barrett to Walker. I believe Barrett, not Walker, got the 53.2%. But corporate media, helping their corporate friends, Koch & Co, needed to spin or omit in order to sell it to the unwashed, unintelligent, uninformed masses.

The only power we have is to continue to question the results, just like we did in 2000 and 2004, until even corporate media is forced to report, however antagonistically, that the election was stolen. This makes the Republicans look like thieves, again and again and again.

 

Cal33

(7,018 posts)
2. This time Democrats most definitely must go into this recall election thoroughly, and really make
Sat Jun 9, 2012, 11:48 AM
Jun 2012

a show-down, if it can be shown that hanky-panky has been involved. This time
Democrats mustn't let up.

If not, Dems. will be losing to right-wingers always. And we'll be having sicko
sociopaths for our leaders. Our country is already way downhill from what it
was because of them. A few steps down further, and it will be permanent chaos.
Sociopaths are not capable of governing. And we shouldn't let them.

BlueCaliDem

(15,438 posts)
3. I totally agree with you, one hundred percent.
Sat Jun 9, 2012, 12:02 PM
Jun 2012

I believe powerful Dems are in on it. Just consider their strange and shocking reactions regarding "speak no evil of Bain and private equity firms" or "Bush tax cuts should be extended".

There has to have been some backroom deal to allow a Dem to win every now and then, especially when things are so horribly messed up that their polls - not the ones they buy to sell us their BS, but their internals - show the growing anger among the American people. When this happens, they allow a few Democrats to win, even one to win the WH, because they can't have one Republican after the other win despite horrible polls and growing anti-Republicanism, could they? That would be too obvious. They still have to give us some sense that we're still a Democratic Republic.

 

Cal33

(7,018 posts)
6. I wonder if these are the politicians who never run for public office, but are really the ones
Sat Jun 9, 2012, 03:12 PM
Jun 2012

who run the whole show, giving broad hints to those in office as to what the limits are.
--the real power brokers. I imagine many of them are the corporatists.

They apparently are incapable of seeing that, with the state of corruption our country
is in today, we can't last much longer. They may grab all the money, but they eventually
won'teven have a country left to control.

Money without power! That surely isn't what they want - but that is what they will get.
And the amount of misery and number of deaths they have already caused, and will continue
to create!! This is the result of having too many sickos in power!

bleever

(20,616 posts)
5. More on forcing the exit polls to match the recorded vote:
Sat Jun 9, 2012, 02:41 PM
Jun 2012

From the article:

The National Exit Poll is always forced to match the recorded vote to within 0.50%. Yet the pollsters claim that the MoE is 4.0%. Why do the pollsters even bother to mention the MoE? It has no meaning since the exit poll is always adjusted to match the recorded vote anyway.

If we had unadjusted exit poll data, the margin of error would be applied to determine the interval where the vote share would fall 95% of the time. This is why unadjusted exit polls are necessary. The standard practice of forcing the exit poll to match the recorded vote implicitly assumes zero fraud, i.e. the recorded vote is identical to the True Vote. It never is.

Igel

(35,393 posts)
11. "Unadjusted exit polls" are a crock.
Sun Jun 10, 2012, 01:49 PM
Jun 2012

You get the raw data, every X voter at a small set of precincts. You know the demographics for respondents, and you know the group that poll workers put all non-respondents into.

So you know in precinct 212 that for those who answered the poll 83% of (D) went for Barrett, 17% went for Walker; that 84% of (R) went for Walker and 16% went for Barrett. What does that get you, when 30% of those asked didn't respond at all?

Well, you know, for respondents, how many blacks and women and people in each age group went for Walker or Barrett. And you know how poll workers categorized the 30% of voters that didn't respond--black/white/Latino/Asian, male/female, age group. Even some idea of SES because of dress. You don't know if the blacks avoided the poll worker because they voted for Walker, or if the 30% were mostly (R) that refused to answer because the male poll worker was wearing an earring.

You made an assumption. Was it right? You don't know. And can you extrapolate that precinct's raw data?

Well, last 3 elections, on averge the blacks in Precinct 212 voted just like the blacks did statewide. So you know how blacks voted this year. Right? Well, last election was an off-year election, and were blacks as motivated to vote as this year? The previous one had Obama running, with very high black turnout. So that "on average" has a really large standard deviation. This year the numbers are fairly meaningless. You picked this district because the white voters were rock solid in their distribution the last three elections, not because of the black voter turnout or results. Yeah, there's data you can extrapolate--but it's not straightforward. You need to make an assumption. Was it right? You don't know.

The raw data gives you precious little. You need to have a model to interpret the data! So those early, first results are still based on a model. But it's a model that they adjust as time goes on.

The more they adjust their model, the more assumptions they make. And, at the end of the day, they have data from perhaps 5% of the precincts and make a prediction--using their model. If they're at odds with the election results, there are a lot of assumptions behind the pollster's prediction, from a valid computer program to poll workers that followed the protocol to no systematic bias and a correct model. The only assumption behind the election results is that nobody tampered with the results in a way that the final canvassing of the voting machines won't turn up. (And most 'election fraud' that I've seen here was turned up during the official count, not the rushed early count.)

In the WI recall election, more than one precinct had massive new voter registration. Models are based on past elections, so anything with a lot of new voters renders that assumption problematic. They were single-issue voters, whatever their issue was, and that makes predictions about voter demographics harder. Lots of assumptions--so little validation. That makes for nervous pollsters because the data are useless with a valid model.

In other words, you don't know if your prediction was right or wrong. There are external polls, but they have their own biases. (Note that with the WI elections, the external polls mostly side with the election results.) So it's a damned good thing that the prediction isn't even the main reason for the exit polls. I know, it's the reason we want them to have to running the polls. But it's not.

Instead you get a wealth of data on who votes for whom and why. Politicians, reporters, social scientists all want this data. Homeowners voted for Obama a lot less than apt. dwellers? There's a mortgage interest deduction tie-in. Those making over $200k/year voted 60% for Obama and self-identify as (D)? So much for the upper class being all stodgy (R). Those with some education or just a high school degree vote mostly (R), but high school drop outs and those with grad degrees vote (D)? Good luck classifying (D) as all educated, and lack of education equating to being (R).

Except that if you don't know if your prediction was right you don't know if any of this kind of data is right. However, given facts you can validate your model and adjust your model. This is what they do--not given election results for the state, but for each precinct that they polled. In the end, the adjusted numbers can still be off--yeah, you fit your precinct data to the final vote, but there's still error. It's in the big name result figures, it's in the details. Why?

Because a lot of voters don't answer. Paragraphs earlier I said you knew some information "for respondents." But there are always non-respondents. Often 10% or more are non-respondents. Sometimes 30% or more. Imagine: For 30% of your sample you have virtually no data. Cool!

Now, you need to randomly sample a precinct. If your sample's not random, you don't have anything close to a valid sample. You may pick every 10th voter; given a few hundred voters, it'll do. If one #10 doesn't answer, you don't ever just pick the 11th. That lets the respondent self-select and that's non-random. But you can't let 10, 20, 30% of your data walk away.

There's a work-around. Poll workers eye up the #10s that get away and class them. "Okay, that's one's black, late 20s, female, has a wedding ring and seems to have a small child with her." Plop goes that #10 into the right "box." No clue how she voted, but at the end of the day the non-respondents will be assigned Walker/Barrett votes based on how the known respondent pool voted. (Just think about the ways the assumptions for this could be wrong!)

Even knowing the final results per the election board you've just estimated from 10 to >30% of your voters. That means estimation and rounding for each little subgroup. When you're done and you add all the subgroups together for a precinct, and all the precincts together, you're no longer likely to match the final result #s. And they're the numbers you have the least error for.

Europe doesn't have this problem. They sample nearly every precinct. They have more data and less extrapolation, making for fewer assumptions. They have greater buy-in because their exit polls are quicker because they collect less data per person and their elections are simpler. And yet they still blow some really close elections. We just don't notice because it doesn't fit our preconceived ideas.

Similarly, American election polls produced some hilarious results. Decades ago. In one case, commentators were struggling to explain a predicted surprise win for a (D) candidate based upon a surprisingly large black and (D) vote and lowered white and (R) vote, only to have the (R) win in the end. The exit poll workers polled near the front of the polling station. The polling station was urban, in a depressed minority neighborhood, with a bus stop out front. The pollster identified the anomalous precinct among the few precincts polled and interviewed the poll workers. They followed the rules. Then the pollster went to the polling station itself. The front door was by the bus stop; pedestrians used it, so people living nearby used it. The back door led to the parking lot. If you came from the middle-class community more than walking distance away you were almost certainly white and almost certainly (R). And almost certainly drove. The poll workers didn't get a random sample: They basically only got the occasional white, (R) voter who parked on the street. (Now we'd scream "election fraud"--and the raw data, coupled with a really bad assumption, would certainly support it!)

midnight

(26,624 posts)
7. Absolutely magic.... Media announces winner...
Sat Jun 9, 2012, 04:21 PM
Jun 2012

"with just 21% of the 100% unverified computer-reported results in, and even as voters in three counties were still said to be voting, thanks to long lines all day and night, as well as ballots and registration forms running out at a number of locations across the state."


http://www.bradblog.com/?p=9332

Sancho

(9,072 posts)
8. We've seen this in Florida over and over...
Sat Jun 9, 2012, 04:26 PM
Jun 2012

The exit polls, witnesses claiming "flipping", and weird undervotes have been prevalent since 2000. Electronic voting is a fraud. It makes no sense to continuing using the damned DRE's and tabulators. Thanks, Richard. Maybe someday people will listen.

Ford_Prefect

(7,943 posts)
9. Where are the votes that were Flipped, Etc?
Sat Jun 9, 2012, 06:31 PM
Jun 2012

At TPM the tracking page showed roughly 200,000 vote advantage with 34% precinct count onwards. The specific difference varied higher and lower over the course of the count. MSNBC called it for Walker at 37% precinct reported.
At the same time the exit polls were still said to be 50-50.

According to observers voting was still going on when the election was called for Walker. My thought at the time was were there 200,000 more Democratic votes left to count? A number of districts reported requiring extra ballot and registration materials throughout the day and evening. Has anyone reviewed the proportions and distribution of same day registrants for accuracy? Has there been any formal analysis of the vote by precinct?

If votes were shifted, flipped or otherwise modified by the equipment or those administering the vote, which precincts indicate such a pattern? If people were told not to vote by robo-callers which precincts were affected? When fraud has been suggested in the past as in Ohio and Florida there were precincts where the vote was clearly different in pattern and proportion than in previous elections.

We know the true details of Ohio and Florida were hidden or denied. Even so there were clues present in the reported vote, much as Richard Charnin suggests there must be.

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