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Related: About this forumTV debate: parties claim spoils after seven-way battle
The Conservatives and Labour have both claimed victory in the aftermath of Thursday's TV election debate between the leaders of seven political parties....
Amid suggestions of a hung Parliament and possible coalitions and deals after the election, commentators have said that the debates made the British political system look very different from the traditional two or three-party set-up.
Ms Sturgeon, Plaid Cymru leader Leanne Wood and Green leader Natalie Bennett all argued against austerity.
The SNP leader signalled areas, such as on tax, where she could work with Labour but said getting more SNP MPs elected to Westminster was needed to "keep them honest".
(More at link)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32172871
I thought the whole thing was very artificial, but was much more impressed by Nicola Sturgeon and Leanne Wood than by the Westminster-mainstream-party leaders, who were mostly just saying what they've said hundreds of times before in parliamentary debates. Among the Westminster leaders, Ed made most sense; Dave's tendency to blame all the UK's economic problems on the last Labour government is getting a bit old after 5 years; but no one made major gaffes or what the Americans call 'Macaca moments' except dear Nige, with his obsession with immigrants, and his shameless pandering. He always makes me want to throw something at my TV!
A clue to the possible winner of the debate perhaps lies in the Daily Fail's frontpage headline today. It was about Nicola Sturgeon, and yes, it read 'IS THIS THE MOST DANGEROUS WOMAN IN BRITAIN?'
muriel_volestrangler
(101,390 posts)ICM scored it as a narrow win for Miliband, YouGov for Sturgeon, Comres as a three-way tie between Cameron, Miliband and Farage, and Survation the same except with Farage a point behind. In other words, it was a draw. The main outcome, probably, is that nobody had a disaster; its not so much about winning as about not losing, and on this occasion there was no obvious loser.
Cameron engaged enough to not seem uninterested, then withdrew enough to look prime ministerial; Miliband was cogent and competent and got in a couple of zingers without seeming to have been up all night practising them. Sturgeon did well enough to make lots of people wonder why she was on the show in the first place, since the overwhelming majority of the UKs population cant vote for her party, any more than they can for Plaid Cymru (who were present) or the DUP or UUP or SDLP or Sinn Féin (all absent). Im not saying that the debate would have benefited from more participants, but the criteria for inclusion looked odd.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2015/04/03/john-lanchester/episode-four-0-0-0-0-0-0-0/
Ironing Man
(164 posts)while i'd certainly agree that Nicola Sturgeon is an impressive performer - and a competant health minister and first minister - its worth remembering that she and the SNP are on to a winner because they are campaigning for policies that their electorate won't have to pay for, or if excluded from a future coalition/arangement, can honk off about westminster ignoring the Scottish electorate.
for all the 'progressive' stuff from the SNP about their commitment to public services and their willingness to raise taxes to pay for them, they're in their second turn of government with direct tax raising powers - yet somehow those powers have gone strangely untouched.
if Sturgeon is the winner - and she is a seriously impressive politician, she's run a critical department and done it pretty well, and she's a good orator - then Miliband is the loser. he did well, he didn't screw up, he made his points - but not only does he pale in comparrison with 'the real thing', but perhaps more crucially that the former tory/libdem, potential labour voter in England knows that if Labour need SNP help to form/maintain a government, it will be Scotland that gets the extra resources, and at English expense.
so a Labour minority government with SNP support might end up scrapping the Bedroom Tax in Scotland but retaining it in England in order to help pay for it.
LeftishBrit
(41,212 posts)E.g. Scottish students don't pay tuition fees; English students do.
However, I think that it would be difficult for Miliband, if he won (whether on his own or in coalition with Sturgeon & perhaps Wood) to continue with such viciously regressive policies as the Bedroom Tax. And I think that coalition with more progressive leaders would push him a little to the left.
Who knows, I may be over-optimistic as we were with Blair. But even Blair introduced the minimum wage, and while he mostly couldn't care less about poorer people in society, at least did not wage war on them to quite the same extent as Osborne and Duncan-Smith. (Ye gods; it shows how bad some of the people are now, that I can compare them unfavourably with the Poodle!_
Ironing Man
(164 posts)Miliband can't really go left, he and his entire shadow cabinet are wedded to the concept of there being little or no 'spare' money left in the system - they can rob one budget to pay another, they can spend various bank/financial taxes half a dozen times, they can fiddle around at the margins, but their economic doctrine is that there is no real extra money floating about looking for a budget to fill.
for Labour (or Miliband) to enter some rainbow coalition of the left and start reversing great swathes of Tory policy means lots and lots of money - real money, money the credible people in Labour who support his throne say is not there. it means Ed Balls and his Treasury team reversing everything they've been saying for the last 5 years - or being replaced.
so no, he can talk left, but he can't do it - he doesn't have the money to do UK wide undoing of austerity, all he can do is buy off the SNP or PC so they get less austerity, but in doing so he entrenches it in England.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,390 posts)and rich supporters who want their taxes cut, and government shrunk, under the guise of austerity:
Summary of responses
The great majority disagree or disagree strongly with the proposition. Of the 50 economists in the survey, 33 responded: two thirds disagree or strongly disagree that coalition policies have had a positive effect on aggregate economic activity. To be precise, no one strongly agrees, 15% agree, 18% neither agree nor disagree, 33% disagree and 33% strongly disagree. Ignoring those who sat on the fence, 19% agree and 81% disagree with the proposition. This ratio is unaffected by confidence weighting.
Many of the respondents begin by noting that it is far from clear what the counterfactual is and that austerity policies were significantly loosened in the second half of the term.
Nevertheless, the clear majority of our respondents disagree or strongly disagree with the proposition. Simon Wren-Lewis (Oxford) even goes so far as to ask whether this is a joke before pointing out that by using numbers from the Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR), one can derive a lowest estimate for the cumulative loss in activity of 5% of GDP (or £1,500 per capita) and a best guess could be nearer to 10% of GDP. Ethan Ilzetzki (London School of Economics, LSE) strongly disagrees, noting that interest rates were at historical low levels and there was no indication that the debt burden was a drag on growth. John Van Reenen (LSE) also strongly disagrees, although he says that austerity was correctly relaxed after 2011-12 as the nascent recovery stuttered. He and Tony Yates (Bristol) both mention the zero lower bound on interest rates as an argument for less austerity.
http://cfmsurvey.org/surveys/importance-elections-uk-economic-activity
The monthly CFM survey informs the public about the views held by prominent UK-based economists on important macroeconomic and public policy questions. The survey sheds light on the extent to which there is agreement or disagreement among these experts. An important motivation for the survey is to give a more comprehensive overview of the beliefs held by economists and in particular to include the views of those economists whose opinions are not frequently heard in public debates.
Osborne changed his spending plans so it would, just, avoid dropping back to government spending levels from the 1930s (ie before the NHS existed). Now, the OBR says, it's just going to go back to 1964 levels:
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/03/were-only-cutting-spending-1964-levels-balls-mocks-tories-new-defence
Meanwhile, the interest we pay on the public debt is fairly low - 2.91% of GDP in 2014, which is lower than any year from 1916 to 1991. The highest it got after the 2008 recession was 3.15% - the same as 1999.
Labour (and the Lib Dems) really ought to be pointing out that austerity is not needed. This is something the Greens (and SNP and PC, for those who can vote for them) are getting right:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-31761540
https://www.greenparty.org.uk/news/2014/12/15/green-party,-snp-and-plaid-cymru-austerity-has-failed.-time-for-a-new-approach-to-politics/
Ironing Man
(164 posts)i'm not debating whether there is or is not more money floating about, i'm suggesting that because Labour has conceded that there isn't really any proper money floating about - and has been doing so for 5+years - it would be rather challenging to suddenly whip out great wedges of cash and claim they found a bundle of unused £50bn notes stashed in the sofa.
4 weeks out from an election is not, i would think, time to pull a new economic/fiscal policy out of the hat, one that pretty much contradicts everything you've been saying (grudgingly) for the last 5 years. moreover, if they pull one out of the hat, post election, in order to get support for a minority government from the SNP and PC, then they'll look ridiculous.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,390 posts)ridiculous too. And there are 'credible people' outside politics - ie the majority of top British economists - who say austerity is not needed.
T_i_B
(14,749 posts)This result was backed up by the newspaper and websites you usually read, and about 80% of the people you chose to be connected to on social media.
Early polling after the event indicates a massive 0% of people changed their voting intentions as a result of the debates.
Meanwhile, reports indicate that none of the six remaining Liberal Democrats intend to desert the party unless they change their minds.