Typically, YMMV.

than gasoline. I made additions (excerpts and links) to OP which refers to this.

Thats MegaJoules.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_fuel

Last edited Mon Jun 18, 2012, 08:50 PM - Edit history (3)

more power. IF you take advantage of ethanol's higher octane you can get better performance (e.g. better mpg) with ethanol than with gasoline.

see: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/10/turbo-charged-d.html

and : Ethanol Boosting Systems

Ethanol Boosting Systems is a company started by three MIT scientists who designed an Ethanol enabled, direct injected engine (also using turbo-charging) which gets about 30% BETTER mpg than the typical ICE on straight gasoline while using only 5% ethanol (directly injected) and 95% gasoline. A 30% improvement in mpg results in a 23% reduction in fuel consumption. To that you must add in the 5% ethanol which displaces gasoline giving you a total gasoline consumption reduction of 28%.

To put this into perspective, if all the cars on the road were equipped with this engine we would see total gasoline consumption reduced by 28% while using a volume of ethanol equal to only 5% of the total fuel supply. Any ethanol we produced above the 5% figure would add to the gasoline consumption reduction by displacing gasoline. Right now we are producing ethanol in a quantity that's about 10% of the fuel supply. So with all cars using this engine we'd see a gasoline consumption reduction of 33%. This would have a very favorable impact on the price of gasoline.

The marginal cost of this engine is $1,000 to $1,500 or about one fourth the cost of a conventional hybrid auto.

Additionally, this engine could use methanol along with the ethanol and get much the same results. We currently have a methanol production capacity of 2.6 billion gallons (at about $1.25 a gallon) and could fairly rapidly (i.e. compared to the time required to increase adoption of hybrid and plug-in hybrid autos) increase our production of methanol (from natural gas, coal or agricultural or lumber industry waste) and add it to the ethanol for greater reductions in gasoline consumption. Actually, this is the cheapest, quickest and easiest (technically doable right now, no new technologies to be developed, refined, made cost effective) way of increasing our energy independence and protect our economy from the inexorably rising price of oil.

By saving our economy from ever higher prices for oil and preventing the effects of higher gas prices such as slower economic growth and stubbornly higher unemployment we would actually be facilitating the adoption of the more expensive technologies (hybrids and plug-in hybrids) as there would be more people in a good enough economic position to be able to buy the hybrids and plug-ins.

But this of course will not happen, as the Oil companies have funded a very successful disinformation campaign on ethanol that has convinced most people that ethanol is the molecule from HELL. LOL (actually, it's not that funny )


also see:

CRC Project No. CM-137-11-1, REVIEW TO DETERMINE THE BENEFITS OF INCREASING OCTANE NUMBER ON GASOLINE ENGINE EFFICIENCY

Of does high octane ethanol require higher compression and particular tuning?

Last edited Tue Jun 19, 2012, 04:29 PM - Edit history (1)

The ethanol allows the engine to use turbo-charging to boost compression chamber pressures beyond what gasoline alone could handle. Gas alone would give you pre-ignition --- baaad.

for more standard FLex fuel vehicle you could use turbo-charging for E85 and have a waste-gate (to release pressure from turbo) if you can only get gas with 10% ethanol. Regarding ignition timing that can be set up to be variable with computer control. The engine has a sensor to monitor fuel mix. IF it senses high mix ethanol, timing of ignition would be adjusted (to get more spark advance with higher compression).

Challenge. 14 College Engineering student teams competed in optimizing a 1997 Chevrolet Malibu to run on E85 (85% ethanol blended gas). In the end, most of the teams produced vehicles which beat straight gasoline fuel efficiency with the best teams exceeding gasoline efficiency by 13% to 15%.


http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/C/19.pdf

Note that this competition took place in 1998. The performance improvements accomplished by the engineering students were achieved without benefit of Direct Injection or other enhancements in internal combustion engine design which were beyond the capacities of college engineering students in this competition.

Using computer controlled ignition timing and variable turbocharger boost you can build cars to run efficiently on either high or low ethanol blends, adapting to the change in octane as needed.

This all has rather significant implications in that the Dept of Energy still uses Green House Gas emissions numbers for ethanol that assumes gas mileage with ethanol willbe about 35% worse than with gasoline. If they were to at least recognize the above facts the GHG emissions/ GHG reductions numbers for ethanol would improve dramatically.

For example a car that gets mpg on ethanol comparable to gasoline's, instead of 65% of the mileage of gasoline, would have GHG emissions numbers more like 51% of those of gasoline rather than the 79% (roughly) that Dept of Energy consistently quotes. Now, engines not tuned for higher octane ethanol will get less mpg than gasoline but wouldn't it be worthwhile to recognize what CAN be done if we made a little effort?

The MIT designed engine mentioned by Bill_USA also has very significant implications.

One of the percieved drawbacks of biofuels is the notion that we can't make enough of them to have a very significant impact on our gasoline consumption. But the MIT ethanol enabled Direct Injection engine (demonstrated by Ford Motors to dept of Energy ... really) in achieving 28% gasoline consumption reduction using only 5% ethanol - means that a supply of ethanol (or ethanol plus methanol) equalling 25% of the fuel supply (definitely do-able with the addition of methanol) would yield a gasoline consumption reduction of 48% (23% - efficiency gain, 25% displacement of gas) if all the cars on the road were equipped with this engine. This would protect our economy from rising gasoline prices and at a rate of adoption (because of the $1,000 to $1,500 marginal cost) that would mean the cut in gasoline consumption would be achieved in a timely fashion - when we need it!


(By the way, it is a pleasant surprise to see such an open minded, rational discussion of ethanol here (or anywhere!). Discussions of ethanol are usually fraught with dire warnings, uttered with religious fervor, of the demise of civilization should the ethanol 'monster' be let loose upon society.)

to an engine. That's not even with E85 that's with the ethanol in regular 87 octane gas.

damages carburetor gaskets, diaphragms and fuel lines. For some reason this has just been happening the last couple years.

That is why the poster provided zero evidence.
Biofuels are renewable, made in the USA, and shift wealth from the middle east... To our mid west. My company fleet cars are E85 and we've had zero problems.

Stop already!!

engine of small engine mechanic and he will tell and most likely show you some ruined parts from
them. I've had a couple small engines totally destroyed from the ethanol in gas myself the
last couple years. I had to replace my fuel line on my outboard this spring because of it. They tell you to
buy high octane gas or gas without ethanol if you can find it. If car is designed
for E-85 it may work fine. But for some reason regular 87 octane gas the last couple years has
caused major problems with small engines.

... I run it in my lawnmowers, weed eaters and chainsaws and... Sorry ...have not had a problem.
Maybe you're right about boats...I can't say.

But, in the Big Picture, if you oppose bio fuels, you're supporting fossil fuel (big oil).

Sorry... I get passionate about this.

we can find an even more inefficient fuel additive then ethanol!

That would be a challenge though, and the end result would probably lack the beauty ethanol's inefficiency all along the chain of production as well as it's low energy inadequacy as a final product..

...according to a USDOE study. And whatever (big oil financed) study you're using to prove ethanol's "low energy inadequacy" (whatever that means) is probably from the 1980s.

Today's ethanol uses much less bio- input (could be corn, could be energy crop) less water, less transport, and less carbon footprint than your Saudi Oil.

If you drive anything other than pure electric (or pedal-powered!) then you
are supporting the fossil fuel industry (big oil). (*)

If you drive a corn ethanol vehicle, you are supporting the monocultural
agricultural lobby ("big agra&quot .

There *are* some good biofuels but don't assume that "bio" = "good".





(*) = That doesn't mean that you shouldn't try to get the most efficient
or best trade-off options available, just that even fuel with 90% ethanol
is still supporting the fossil fuel industry with the other 10% (plus a little
bit of hidden support).

gas, mostly at marinas. I know several people that work on small engines and every one of them has told me to buy ethanol free gas if you can find it or at least buy the high octane gas because it has less ethanol in it. My outboard mechanic showed me some plastic and rubber parts out of small engines that ethanol literally dissolved. It doesn't make sense to me to burn food as a fuel to lower the price of gas when it raises the price of nearly every food product you buy. For years they have had some ethanol in gas but apparently they have been jacking up the percentage the last couple years because it has been causing a lot problems and any money saved on the price of gas is more than offset buy the damage it does. It has also been causing problems with older cars from what I have heard.
Yes there are places where you can buy ethanol free gas, here is a web site
http://pure-gas.org/

22 years ago, I think it was 10% ethanol. Back then that was unique.

if damage is being done to engines, there are several possibilities that need to be ruled out and the following questions have to be asked;

How can you isolate the damage done to your boat motor to the ethanol in gasoline?

Do boats use parts that are sensitive to ethanol?

Generally speaking:

Is the damage done to engines greater that what would have occurred on pure gasoline, how can we be sure?

Could the composition of the parts that are being damaged changed in the last several years to something that is more sensitive to ethanol?

Has something in the storage and delivery method of ethanol changed, something that might have introduced a new variable, specifically some new ingredient.

If ethanol is the culprit we should be seeing widespread damage, if not, how can sporadic cases be explained?

Now I know little to nothing about this ethonol debate, these as just the kinds of questions I would start with....