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OKIsItJustMe

(19,940 posts)
Wed Jun 20, 2012, 12:25 PM Jun 2012

Toward super-size wind turbines: Bigger wind turbines do make greener electricity

http://portal.acs.org/portal/acs/corg/content?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=PP_ARTICLEMAIN&node_id=223&content_id=CNBP_030130&use_sec=true&sec_url_var=region1&__uuid=f4c39d99-e5b1-4bec-8cc7-1d316f8e219d
[font face=Serif][font size=5]Toward super-size wind turbines: Bigger wind turbines do make greener electricity[/font]

Wind Power Electricity: The Bigger the Turbine, The Greener the Electricity?
Environmental Science & Technology

[font size=3]In a study that could solidify the trend toward construction of gigantic windmills, scientists have concluded that the larger the wind turbine, the greener the electricity it produces. Their report appears in ACS’ journal Environmental Science & Technology.

Marloes Caduff and colleagues point out that wind power is an increasingly popular source of electricity. It provides almost 2 percent of global electricity worldwide, a figure expected to approach 10 percent by 2020. The size of the turbines also is increasing. One study shows that the average size of commercial turbines has grown 10-fold in the last 30 years, from diameters of 50 feet in 1980 to nearly 500 feet today. On the horizon: super-giant turbines approaching 1,000 feet in diameter. The authors wanted to determine whether building larger turbines makes wind energy more or less environmentally friendly.

Their study showed that bigger turbines do produce greener electricity — for two main reasons. First, manufacturers now have the knowledge, experience and technology to build big wind turbines with great efficiency. Second, advanced materials and designs permit the efficient construction of large turbine blades that harness more wind without proportional increases in their mass or the masses of the tower and the nacelle that houses the generator. That means more clean power without large increases in the amount of material needed for construction or fuel needed for transportation.

The authors acknowledge funding from the European Commission.[/font][/font]
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Toward super-size wind turbines: Bigger wind turbines do make greener electricity (Original Post) OKIsItJustMe Jun 2012 OP
Putting offshore oil platforms to a better use? Ezlivin Jun 2012 #1
Creative thinking, but probably not. FBaggins Jun 2012 #2
Hmmmm… OKIsItJustMe Jun 2012 #4
Sure... but let's consider why. FBaggins Jun 2012 #7
You can see the rigs offshore from Corpus XemaSab Jun 2012 #9
“…someone is willing to accept the eyesore” OKIsItJustMe Jun 2012 #10
The "eyesore" I refer to... FBaggins Jun 2012 #11
You could leave it as hydrogen, or combine with CO2 to produce methane OKIsItJustMe Jun 2012 #12
I love the idea of using solar/wind to produce fuels. FBaggins Jun 2012 #13
It is far more efficient to build power lines. kristopher Jun 2012 #14
As I suspected. FBaggins Jun 2012 #15
“The losses in for hydrogen storage are extremely large” OKIsItJustMe Jun 2012 #17
The efficiency of producing hydrogen using electricity really isn’t that bad with catalysts OKIsItJustMe Jun 2012 #16
Move the platforms? FogerRox Jun 2012 #6
Hundreds? There are about 4,000 oil platforms in the Gulf of Mexico. tclambert Jun 2012 #3
IIRC the East coast is much better than the gulf FogerRox Jun 2012 #5
In the 1890's a German inventor had a unique idea Rain Mcloud Jun 2012 #8

Ezlivin

(8,153 posts)
1. Putting offshore oil platforms to a better use?
Wed Jun 20, 2012, 12:39 PM
Jun 2012

It seems like the best place for gigantic wind turbines would be on any number of the hundreds of offshore oil platforms that dot the Gulf of Mexico.

I'm also interested in how the "egg beater" design will fare when it's scaled up.

http://www.mnn.com/green-tech/research-innovations/blogs/eggbeater-technology-to-double-wind-farm-output

FBaggins

(26,799 posts)
2. Creative thinking, but probably not.
Wed Jun 20, 2012, 01:08 PM
Jun 2012

Something like that was tested with much smaller turbines, but big ones like this would likely be limited to one per platform (and would require "creative" designs to mate them together.

Then add to this the fact that the turbine needs to be connected to the grid, so you would need to move all of those ugly platforms close to each other and comparatively close to land.

FBaggins

(26,799 posts)
7. Sure... but let's consider why.
Wed Jun 20, 2012, 07:59 PM
Jun 2012

It isn't that it isn't possible... just that it isn't justified.

Back-of-the-napkin, there are in the neighborhood of 4,000 oil platforms in the gulf, producing something around 1.75 million bpd. So let's ballpark it at 425 bpd/platform. One barrel of oil carries the equivalent of somewhere between 1.5 and 2.0 MWh... so that's close to 750 MW/h. Compare that to the largest wind turbine at, say, 6MW * 24hrs * 50% capacity factor.

So the question could start with asking whether you would run a connection for (very roughly) 1/10th of the energy flow? There are some offsets we haven't considered (it's just got to be cheaper to run a cable than a pipe, and there will be wind at that location for longer than there will be oil)... But that isn't really the question. The real question is why you would do it when you could instead run cable to a hub that serves 100 turbines close to each other?

So it might make sense to construct turbine supports that are essentially modified oil rig jackets, but it's unlikely that thousands upon thousands of existing (abandoned) oil rigs in the gulf will become turbine platforms unless there's an easy way to move them together and someone is willing to accept the eyesore.

XemaSab

(60,212 posts)
9. You can see the rigs offshore from Corpus
Thu Jun 21, 2012, 01:01 AM
Jun 2012

There may be problems with putting windmills in the gulf, but visual impacts are totally not a thing out there.

OKIsItJustMe

(19,940 posts)
10. “…someone is willing to accept the eyesore”
Thu Jun 21, 2012, 11:29 AM
Jun 2012

You mean as opposed to the beauty of the oil platforms?

Here’s an idea… use the electricity to create a liquid or gaseous fuel of some sort which could be transported using the existing pipelines…

FBaggins

(26,799 posts)
11. The "eyesore" I refer to...
Thu Jun 21, 2012, 11:40 AM
Jun 2012

... is a hundred of them of differing ages and designs right next to each other to facilitate an efficient wind farm.

Here’s an idea… use the electricity to create a liquid or gaseous fuel of some sort

Hmm... like seawater electrolysis to produce hydrogen. A clever notion (though I have no idea whether it makes sense).

OKIsItJustMe

(19,940 posts)
12. You could leave it as hydrogen, or combine with CO2 to produce methane
Thu Jun 21, 2012, 11:46 AM
Jun 2012
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabatier_process#Energy_Storage

Since there are preexisting “natural gas” pipelines, this would seem to make sense.

FBaggins

(26,799 posts)
13. I love the idea of using solar/wind to produce fuels.
Thu Jun 21, 2012, 01:00 PM
Jun 2012

You almost completely do away with variability concerns.

I doubt that this would make economic sense. Get CO2 out there (or take it from the atmosphere), crack the hydrogen from sea water (with the attendent losses and most of it ends up as water again), then get the resulting fuel back onshore... etc. But it's the kind of thinking we need.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
14. It is far more efficient to build power lines.
Thu Jun 21, 2012, 01:29 PM
Jun 2012

The losses in for hydrogen storage are extremely large.

There is little advantage in using the oil platforms as a base for wind turbines. However if winds happened to justify it, an oil platform might serve as the location for the transformer hub linking a wind farm.

As previously noted the winds of the Gulf are not particularly good. Texas opened that area to wind development long ago, but it has attracted no investors because the onshore winds in the region are nearly as good.

FBaggins

(26,799 posts)
15. As I suspected.
Thu Jun 21, 2012, 01:37 PM
Jun 2012

Makes sense, thanks!

Still... it's always a good idea to encourage lateral thinking on repurposing some of those ugly beasts

OKIsItJustMe

(19,940 posts)
17. “The losses in for hydrogen storage are extremely large”
Thu Jun 21, 2012, 03:19 PM
Jun 2012

Care to quantify that?

I know you feel that it’s true, but others do not.

FogerRox

(13,211 posts)
6. Move the platforms?
Wed Jun 20, 2012, 07:59 PM
Jun 2012

The Atlantic Wind Connection will be 350 miles of HVDC cable. Plus IIRC wind potential in the Gulf is not great, the east coast is much better.

In fact oil platform construction companies are now getting into offshore platforms for HVDC components, 5-20 miles offshore.

FogerRox

(13,211 posts)
5. IIRC the East coast is much better than the gulf
Wed Jun 20, 2012, 07:55 PM
Jun 2012

for potential wind power.

Utilities are climbing over each other for east coast leases, the Gulf... not so much.

 

Rain Mcloud

(812 posts)
8. In the 1890's a German inventor had a unique idea
Wed Jun 20, 2012, 11:35 PM
Jun 2012

Build a metal chimney with an impeller inside.
The Sun heats the tube causing an updraft which would pull the rising air across the impeller blades causing rotation which would drive a generator.

Then the idea was revisited with modern technology and on a grander scale.
Sadly the project was scaled backed due to budget shortfalls.
A smaller package may still be in the works in Australia,i have not heard in several years what progress if any has been made.

The project was to rise over 3000 feet in height and employ 32 turbines at the base generating 200 Mega Watts of power.
Here(hopefully)is a link to a short video of the project:
[link:

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