And I find no difference between them and climate deniers in the depths of their destructive denial.

where the strong survive and the weak submit or get crushed.

A lot of talk about guns on DU confuses me, a Canadian.

I think we have fairly reasonable firearms regulations in Canada. A shitload of us are hunters or, if not, are respectful of hunters and their ethos (we're even willing to use the euphemisms adopted by hunters, such as that a hunter isn't "killing", the hunter is "harvesting&quot . We don't have something in our constitution that can be interpreted as a right to unregulated access to firearms.

We don't discuss the difference between "open carry" and "concealed carry".
We don't have "stand your ground" laws that give some kind of emotional credence to the idea of standoffs on Main St. between two pistol wielding adversaries duelling with guns. Zimmerman, who stalked his prey and gunned him down, then appealed to something like "stand your ground laws" would have a bit of a time explaining his actions, his gun, and the entire conduct of the murder.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Canada#Classification_of_firearms

...even those who think they are pro-gun yet not beholden to the NRA.

Yet they've internalized the panicky talking points, conflating their guns with their personhood. And so they "I only target shoot" crowd continues to support social and political policies that keep guns flowing into the hands of killers...

I don't own a gun, but many of my family and friends do.
Those who have hand guns seem even more prideful of their ownership because of the restrictions.
For one thing, they know that if someone is caught with a restricted weapon with no reason to carry it, they ought to be detained.
The idea isn't that if firearms are restricted by regulation then only criminals will have guns, but that if firearms are restricted by regulation then criminals are in the cross-hairs when they breach those regulations.

And they're on the side of gun culture.

I do know that "false flag" posts are becoming much more common now that the internet is coming of age - so I don't take strangers at their word when they claim to be spokesperson for issues/parties/classes/cultures.

There will *always* be people posting, saying the damnedest things.

n/t

But we will also need much more than that.

And while "capitulation" might be one word, "in thrall" might be another.

They are in other countries, and I'm not "racially prejudiced" against the USA to such degree as to think US citizens are somehow inherently different.

who are irrational as all fuck. That doesn't seem to be a problem there. Also, in the US it is the honest target shooters and hunters that are in the cross hairs. They read about your Crown arbitrarily changing firearms from "unrestricted" to "prohibited" without grandfathering (like machine guns were in 1977) nor financial compensation. and the complete failure of Australia.
Why?
Those prohibited from possessing firearms can not be charged with having an unregistered gun, criminals do not buy their guns at gun shows nor gun shops,

Also, hunters and target shooters in the US are also well informed of US gun laws, peer reviewed studies in criminology journals, and the junk science funded by the likes of Bloomberg. Many of them are also educated enough to spot a string of logical fallacies gun control activists call arguments.
Really, let's face it: in US culture, if some racist authoritarian like Bloomberg wants to push something on Vermont, Wyoming, or even rural New York, he is going to be told to screw off and rightfully so.

who are as irrational as all fuck.

Indeed, there is no difference between them and climate deniers, in their inability to put together cause and effect...

the racist POS did not buy it at a gun store or gun show. He is under felony indictment for drug charges, and would have failed the background check. He is also prohibited from possessing a firearm under the Gun Control Act. His father, I have a feeling the apple didn't fall far from the tree, gave it to him. My question is will the feds charge the father with knowingly violating the Gun Control Act by giving it to him, or will they blow it off?
My hope is that dad gets the 5-10. The cynic in me says not likely.

If there's a family member in the house who has felony drug charges and is prohibited from possessing a firearm, shouldn't that reasonably ping on the father's background check? Is it not reasonable to say "Hey, your son has been indicted on a felony drug charge, and putting more guns within his reach would be illegal?"

Different story if he's living states away independently, or is estranged from the father, but if they're living together or nearby, why wouldn't that make it more difficult for the father to access a gun?

because the background check is on that specific individual. However, if they lived in the same house, it would still be a violation of the Gun Control Act unless it is in a safe that the son did not have the key or combination to it.

Last edited Fri Jun 19, 2015, 05:37 PM - Edit history (1)

When people's guns are so important to them that they must display their guns prominently in virtually every situation, especially those marked as important rites of passage, then they think of their culture as being defined by their passion for guns. Their guns are the "stars" of almost every scene--or at least their love of and relationship with their guns star in every scene.

When television shows and movies (and video games, too, of course) make it seem as though shooting at someone or something is the way to deal with almost any difficulty, that is gun culture. Kids grow up in a milieu that normalizes the use of guns as a way to settle disputes, express anger and frustration, or simply express one's social status and power.

When cops automatically reach for their guns when they interact with citizens who do not immediately bow and scrape submissively enough before their "authoritah," that is gun culture.

When people sleep with their loaded guns right by their beds, so they can grab them while still groggy after being awakened from a deep sleep and shoot at any sound or movement in the dark (without bothering to find out whom they are shooting at, and thus all too often killing their own loved ones), that is gun culture.

When people become the gun-owner version of cat ladies and other out of control hoarders, that is gun culture.

When terror that the government will snatch their precious away, or at the very least forbid them to purchase any more guns or ammunition, provokes gun lovers into panicky runs on stores that sell guns, so the sellers can hardly keep up with the demand, that is gun culture.

In gun culture the only truly inalienable right is the right to pack heat, and single-issue RKBA voters will elect any dangerous demagogue, regardless of his stance on other really important issues, as long as he squawks loudly enough in defense of their right to stockpile unlimited quantities of of guns and ammunition and to carry their guns aggressively into public spaces, scaring the caca out of people who just want to go about their normal activities.

In gun culture, an endless sequence of gun massacres--no matter how many die, no matter how innocent or young the victims are--cannot have any influence on the debate about reasonable laws pertaining to responsible gun ownership.

And when guns kill so many people, many of them children, each year, each day, in the US--a bloody harvest that we just don't see in other First World nations--that is gun culture!

Interesting to note that nobody is contesting these "inconsequential" statistics. Of course, we know that suicides don't count, because they would have found another equally efficient method sarcasm:
Also, "thugs" killing "thugs" don't count and the cops only kill one "thug" a day.

So, basically, all these shootings are "STATISTICALLY INSIGNIFICANT"

Meanwhile, the rest of the world shakes its head in wonderment, while recognizing how fortunate they are not to be bridled with the insanity of a constitutional right to carry guns around.

Some want to get at the racism in this country and its legitimization on hate radio and RW rhetoric; others gun types and prohibition.

..and the degree to which they're indivisible....

nt.

n/t

n/t

...your "climate denial" approach to this subject, to which you are so personally fused, makes any kind of actual conversation impossible.

So you post whatever will make you feel better after this massacre, and be sure to do likewise after the next one, too.

I bid you good day, and good thread, my friend.

I've always supported reasonable regulations on firearms. I support universal background checks (which we just got here in Oregon), increased access to mental health records for the NICS database used to conduct those checks, mandatory secure firearms storage, and so forth.

I also support efforts that are not directly gun-related, but would do far, far more to prevent gun-related deaths. I particularly advocate for greater economic equality (the majority of gun-related murders are not committed by deranged mass killers, but by common career criminals, for which poverty and hopelessness are major causal factors). I advocate vastly greater support for our neglected mental healthcare system (2/3 of gun-related deaths are suicides...). I advocate ending the incredibly counterproductive, wasteful War on Drugs (illicit drug trafficking is implicated in a high percentage of gun-related crimes).

This country established a Constitution wherein individual rights of the people are recognized (not accorded) by the government, and done so in a "negative" way: "Congress shall make no law infringing/abridging..." One of those individual rights is the right to keep and bear arms (2A), prominently listed at the beginning of the Bill of Rights. That unique right (among the nations of the world), protected in a unique way, reflects how deeply embedded the RKBA is in our society and culture. That right Will Not go away except through (probably) violent authoritarian take-over (few nations are willing to cede a monopoly on violence).

Many forget that even after our revolution, we were and are a collection of states which still have tremendous powers, and not merely departments of a typically strong central government (democratic or not) found elsewhere. The "militia" language in the Second reflects this reality, both now and when it was written. In a time when a collection of states was formed around the federal government, militia authority was given to the federal government in Article 1, and reasserted in the Second as one reason for the RKBA, but not as a sole condition of the right. All individual states recognize the RKBA under their respective constitutions as well. It Must be remembered that the rights in the Second and other Amendments are individual (not of some body, association, or government), and recognized necessarily as pre-existing.

The framers knew the United States were an experiment which was subject to instability. Some call it the Wild West (a dime novel concoction of political theory if ever there was such), others see the U.S. as a massive blend of interests and peoples that is always changing, and are more comfortable with fairly autonomous states, individual rights, and the means of violent self-defense Shared not just with government, but with each other.

I hope my take on our society and culture is helpful.

You have a hatred for the NRA. Everyone sees it, that's your choice. But you can't solve problems with prohibition. Yet you keep coming back to it.

Panicky talking points? It's what I hear from your posts. You seem to have no sense of irony.

No one has ever said that. The Supreme Court has specifically said that.

Zimmerman stalked Trayvon Martin, and killed him with a gun.

It wasn't the reverse, as you claim.
Whoa, I never want to meet up with you, in person.

Bye.

I didn't get my "information" from blogs. I didn't say Martin stalked anyone. He did ambush Zimmerman while he was walking back to his car. You can watch the entire trial on You Tube, or read the very good coverage here.
http://www.talkleft.com/

Either way, "stalking" has a specific legal meaning in the US. People who use "stalking" and "child" misused words to get an emotional reaction.

If you watch the You Tube archive, you might see me in the fourth row of the peanut gallery. I'm a pretty mellow guy in person. I do accept facts and evidence as they are, even if it means it goes against my ideology.

[font face="courier new"]Total murders...................... 12,253
Handguns............................ 5,782 (47.2%)
Firearms (type unknown)............. 2,079 (17.0%)
Clubs, rope, fire, etc.............. 1,622 (13.2%)
Knives and other cutting weapons.... 1,490 (12.2%)
Hands, fists, feet.................... 687 (5.6%)
Shotguns.............................. 308 (2.5%)
Rifles................................ 285 (2.3%)[/font]

What kind of POS kills 9 people in church with any kind of weapon?

Is there anything I can do toward stopping this stuff?

Far more important for spending political capital. ENOUGH.

That's the mass murderers gun of choice.

including suicides.
So what's your point?

This is about a mass shooting, not a suicide.

If only you all cared as much about human life as your precious guns, this shit wouldn't keep happening. The right to kill must not be infringed.

For example, when Pamela Gellar exploits tragedy and blames all Muslims for the actions of a
murderous minority, it's bigotry and prejudice.

When antigun types exploit tragedy and blame all gun owners for the actions of a
muderous minority, it's concern.

And by all means, don't call it culture war...

What makes you think we don't? One need not preclude the other.

For that matter, you've been less concerned in this thread about the nine murder victims
and more about seeing that people that weren't involved get the kicking they 'deserve'

You must be happy having another tragedy to put to good use.

Published gun control talking points.

On Thu Jun 18, 2015, 06:13 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Does waving that bloody shirt get tiring after a while?
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a barf emoticon over the loss of life is over the top. This sort of craven disregard for mourning the dead is unacceptable anywhere.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Jun 18, 2015, 06:21 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

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Someone is under the impression that antis alert when they get painted into a corner.













Gee, I wonder where they got that idea?

On Thu Jun 18, 2015, 06:13 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Does waving that bloody shirt get tiring after a while?
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a barf emoticon over the loss of life is over the top. This sort of craven disregard for mourning the dead is unacceptable anywhere.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Jun 18, 2015, 06:21 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

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It is, however, the American homeowner's rifle of choice, by a huge margin.

You are aware that rifles are the least misused of all weapons in this country, yes?

Murder, by State and Type of Weapon, 2013 (FBI)

[font face="courier new"]Total murders...................... 12,253
Handguns............................ 5,782 (47.2%)
Firearms (type unknown)............. 2,079 (17.0%)
Clubs, rope, fire, etc.............. 1,622 (13.2%)
Knives and other cutting weapons.... 1,490 (12.2%)
Hands, fists, feet.................... 687 (5.6%)
Shotguns.............................. 308 (2.5%)
Rifles................................ 285 (2.3%)[/font]

but mass shootings.

not a rifle.

unless it is a simple rifle that has been hacksawed, violating the National Firearms Act. He sat through the an hour of service without someone slipping out to call the cops. That means concealed. Also, NYT and others are reporting that he reloaded five times.

Although when they are used, they get a disproportionate amount of coverage and calls for bans, compared to pistols or other civilian rifles with the same (civilian, one-shot-at-a-time) rate of fire but more traditional looks.

Looks like the coward in SC used a low-capacity pistol, if early indications are correct.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1911_pistol

It's pinned to the top of the Group.

The Virginia Tech killer used a handgun with standard magazines. Sorry to breakdown your Narrative™.

He was there in the church praying with them for an hour before he began shooting.

Probably a handgun. Concealed until he began shooting.

But AR rifles are black and scary but rarely used in mass shootings. But i am sure you know that.

"Where there's a will, there's a weapon." - Lord of War

If it was, then what?

So the answer is yes, it belongs in the hands of civilians.




Are you saying you'd trust it in LEO and Military hands more???

With an 18-year old private under the command of a 22-year old lieutenant using one to shoot funny-looking foreigners while stationed on the other side of the world. You know, responsible adults like everyone is at that age.

So it is not the possession nor use that he has a problem with, he just wants to make sure the right sort of non-Americans are killed with them...

It could have been a simple pump shotgun or any number of semi-automatic handguns.

No it doesn't belong in the hands of civilians. Unfortunately someone who really wants to kill a group of people can probably make one.

I can't understand what's going through the mind of these killers so don't know what effort they may put into planning and acquiring weapons. I think the Aurora shooter spent over a month planning. If he wasn't able to get other weapons I can certainly imagine him building a bomb.

How long until the Tactical Tier 1 Operators blame the deaths on the victims for not having armed themselves?

but with good situational awareness someone could have made the task less easy. Having a firearm is less than half the battle when confronted with a shooter.


I know the last cat that come in dressed odd and out of place in our church, we ended up escorting out at the end of the service when he stood up and started ranting how everyone in our "lukewarm" church was going to burn in hell. I remember commenting to the wife that the first thing I felt for was my PSD.


Since then I've acquired what I call my "church gun" while it's a tiny little pocket 380 I don't have to feel like an easy victim just waiting to happen when at services anymore.

Throw in the fact my wife and I are responsible for 15 youths in our class I'm always keeping a sharp eye out considering all the hate religious folks endure these days.

than it will for no compromise controllers to stand in the blood screaming collective guilt. They arrived before the ambulances.

But can't let a good tragedy go to waste.
It's in the manual:

But it is certainly taking them a lot longer than the "operators" who are blaming the object for the actions of a racist nutjob. I guess the operators you are referring to are a bit brighter and more self-aware than the ones I am referring to.

Oh, and a bit of friendly advice from here (oh look, it's your post!)

Folks such as yourself, have been using a particular anti-gun talking point for years. It goes something like this:

"Who needs a gun in church".

according to reports, including the NYT, the racist apartheid loving POS reloaded five times. That could mean a lot of things.

104 year old design, 7 round mags .

In no way would I provide fuel for anything in the way of victim-blaming, in this case or any other.

I will stipulate that I am anti-gun as well as generally conflict-averse but also influenced by extensive recent reading of Lee Child.

Very little so far has been revealed about the makeup of the prayer group, gender, age, etc., as well as the room configuration.

It is a rare occasion for me to violate the space of another person or take the initiative in an unpredictable fashion. The other day I did witness a frail person struggling to get her oversized suitcase up Metro bus stairs and helped with that. When the opportunity presents I am quite happy to play helpful. But normally, like most of us I bet, I keep to myself.

But am I to understand that the shooter was allowed to reload, possibly more than once, without physical intervention? I'm not saying I know how it came down or that I would have had someone there play Jack Reacher, but it seems a bit incredible what has been reported so far.

And that is perhaps the essence. Given the predictable total BS from the MSM, deteriorating with every year unfortunately, rarely headlining this comparably to much-smaller crimes of violence by POC, never mind calling racist terrorism out by its proper name, we can no longer trust these bastards beholden to Fox and the only-slightly-less reprehensible money-squeaking liars at virtually all of the few other remaining outlets/spigots to do any proper journalism.

What the hell happened here? Tell us.

per media reports.

Generations of tv and movie gunfights totally ignore the actual effects of a .45 caliber slug. SImply put, if you are hit by one you will end up on the floor, usually seriously injured or dead. That is why it was developed in the first place and is still used by many Special Ops teams and others. If you are a good shot that seven round magazine would produce seven very seriously injured(or dead) victims especially at close range. Change the magazine and you can kill another seven.

Reportedly this murderer got his weapon as a birthday present.