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sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
Mon Sep 2, 2019, 03:15 PM Sep 2019

AR-15 inventor's family: "Meant to be a military weapon." "He'd have been horrified and sickened."

AR-15 Inventor's Family: This Was Meant to Be a Military Weapon

the family of the inventor of the AR-15 rifle says that the gun was not intended for civilian use but for military purposes.

“Our father, Eugene Stoner, designed the AR-15 and subsequent M-16 as a military weapon to give our soldiers an advantage over the AK-47,” the Stoner family told NBC News. “He died long before any mass shootings occurred. But, we do think he would have been horrified and sickened as anyone, if not more by these events.”

https://time.com/4371452/orlando-shooting-ar-15-military-civilian-family/



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AR-15 inventor's family: "Meant to be a military weapon." "He'd have been horrified and sickened." (Original Post) sharedvalues Sep 2019 OP
The AR-15 Stoner invented became the M16. It was an automatic weapon (i.e. a "machne gun"). PoliticAverse Sep 2019 #1
And it doesn't differ significantly from the current M4 issued to military personnel. flamin lib Sep 2019 #4
" That is not a significant difference." oneshooter Sep 2019 #7
You're gonna stand on a LEGAL difference? sharedvalues Sep 2019 #8
The law doesn't make them different discntnt_irny_srcsm Sep 2019 #9
The point is no matter what you call them they wasupaloopa Sep 2019 #27
M-14's in civilian form, are M1A's. yagotme Sep 2019 #30
The Virginia Tech asshole used a Glock 19 and a Walther P22. discntnt_irny_srcsm Sep 2019 #44
Recommended. guillaumeb Sep 2019 #2
"Eugene Stoner, an ex-marine and the rifle's inventor, never used his AR-15 for sport" IronLionZion Sep 2019 #3
Stoner also referred to his invention as an assault rifle. flamin lib Sep 2019 #5
I couldn't find anything in regards to this using our friend the google Lokilooney Sep 2019 #10
Don't expect a link to a source- that sort are fond of promulgating "faith-promoting rumors" friendly_iconoclast Sep 2019 #11
Here is his dog's breakfast version of the history of the Mosin Nagant... Marengo Sep 2019 #13
More of that kind of thing, in re the AR-15: friendly_iconoclast Sep 2019 #14
This message was self-deleted by its author friendly_iconoclast Sep 2019 #15
DING DING DING!!! We have a winner!!! yagotme Sep 2019 #25
re: He died long before any mass shootings occurred. discntnt_irny_srcsm Sep 2019 #6
Seems more a case of stuffing words in a dead man's mouth so to speak. The AR-15 has been Marengo Sep 2019 #12
I'm willing to listen to his family members- *after* they give away their share of his estate... friendly_iconoclast Sep 2019 #16
Right??? That would certainly be noble gesture establishing their sincerity. Marengo Sep 2019 #17
Exactly. Straw Man Sep 2019 #18
Stoner should be remembered as a ghoul samir.g Sep 2019 #19
Stoner didn't invent the select-fire rifle. Straw Man Sep 2019 #20
I used his invention in Vietnam against AK47s wasupaloopa Sep 2019 #28
AR-15 mass murder weapon jpak Sep 2019 #21
Mass murder weapon? Straw Man Sep 2019 #22
Gun nut fail - LOL! jpak Sep 2019 #23
This might be a time when... discntnt_irny_srcsm Sep 2019 #24
Thank you for your detailed and nuanced response. Straw Man Sep 2019 #26
Your response to my question was "detailed and nuanced" - lol jpak Sep 2019 #29
Diesel fuel, ammonium nitrate, Oklahoma. yagotme Sep 2019 #31
Yeah - fucking militia gun nuts jpak Sep 2019 #32
Pardon my asking, but ... Straw Man Sep 2019 #34
At least it contained factual information. Straw Man Sep 2019 #33
Why it is wrong is easy to answer. ManiacJoe Sep 2019 #35
Ask the parents of Sandy Hook if they want to have that discussion jpak Sep 2019 #36
If you are not interested, why did you jump into the discussion? ManiacJoe Sep 2019 #37
Becuz AR-15s suck - they have killed hundreds jpak Sep 2019 #38
Unfortunately, that is nothing special about AR-15 style rifles. ManiacJoe Sep 2019 #39
Except they are (like other stupid mass murder weapons like them) are the preferred gun of jpak Sep 2019 #40
It is not surprising to find the top selling rifle ManiacJoe Sep 2019 #41
And it's not surprising that ... Straw Man Sep 2019 #43
Preferred gun? Straw Man Sep 2019 #42
" they have killed hundreds " oneshooter Sep 2019 #45
What a lame response jpak Sep 2019 #46
If you can not answer the question, then why ask it? oneshooter Sep 2019 #47
Please read the OP jpak Sep 2019 #48
The OP is virtue-signalling bullshit- his family as of yet hasn't renounced his money... friendly_iconoclast Sep 2019 #49
IMNSHO, a non-answer is an answer discntnt_irny_srcsm Sep 2019 #50

PoliticAverse

(26,366 posts)
1. The AR-15 Stoner invented became the M16. It was an automatic weapon (i.e. a "machne gun").
Mon Sep 2, 2019, 03:23 PM
Sep 2019

The current gun called the AR-15 is semi-automatic and doesn't differ significantly from a host of other semi-automatic guns except perhaps it's customizability.

flamin lib

(14,559 posts)
4. And it doesn't differ significantly from the current M4 issued to military personnel.
Mon Sep 2, 2019, 06:11 PM
Sep 2019

The M4 allows 3 rounds to be fired with a single trigger activation, an AR 15 only one. Two rounds per trigger pull. That's it. That is not a significant difference.

oneshooter

(8,614 posts)
7. " That is not a significant difference."
Mon Sep 2, 2019, 10:19 PM
Sep 2019

Enough difference that one is legal for civilians, the other is restricted to Military/ Police ONLY.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
8. You're gonna stand on a LEGAL difference?
Mon Sep 2, 2019, 10:43 PM
Sep 2019

The same handguns that are legal here are effectively prohibited in Canada (except for at ranges).

So is the same handgun different because two laws treat it differently?

The guns you’re talking about are quite similar.

 

wasupaloopa

(4,516 posts)
27. The point is no matter what you call them they
Sat Sep 7, 2019, 01:00 PM
Sep 2019

are used in mass killings.

I understand the desire to make it hard to write a law banning them.

I carried a M16A1 in Vietnam. They were just being used a few months before I left. I had a M14 before. A M-14 could also be used in a mass killing. But it seems no one has one.

So there needs to be a term or description to use in the law. My idea is to make the law open ended so that it can be made to cover any new attempt to get around it.

yagotme

(2,847 posts)
30. M-14's in civilian form, are M1A's.
Sat Sep 7, 2019, 07:46 PM
Sep 2019

Same thing, except no happy switch on receiver. They are out there, but not as plentiful as the AR. Probably too heavy for the perps to carry comfortably.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,470 posts)
44. The Virginia Tech asshole used a Glock 19 and a Walther P22.
Mon Sep 9, 2019, 07:33 AM
Sep 2019

Is it the best course to outlaw weapons used in famous crimes?

IronLionZion

(45,256 posts)
3. "Eugene Stoner, an ex-marine and the rifle's inventor, never used his AR-15 for sport"
Mon Sep 2, 2019, 05:39 PM
Sep 2019
Eugene Stoner, an ex-marine and the rifle’s inventor, never used his AR-15 for sport, kept it for personal defense, or even owned one. His family said he made millions by using his design, but only for military sales.

flamin lib

(14,559 posts)
5. Stoner also referred to his invention as an assault rifle.
Mon Sep 2, 2019, 06:17 PM
Sep 2019

Even the "civilian" AR 15 which was marketed to the Navy for use aboard ship. Ships are made of steel. Bullets bounce around unpredictably in steel enclosures. The Navy did not want full auto weapons in that environment.



Lokilooney

(322 posts)
10. I couldn't find anything in regards to this using our friend the google
Tue Sep 3, 2019, 07:22 PM
Sep 2019

Could you provide a link with your source?

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
11. Don't expect a link to a source- that sort are fond of promulgating "faith-promoting rumors"
Tue Sep 3, 2019, 09:37 PM
Sep 2019

As for your interlocutor in particular, I'll just leave these links here:


https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1262&pid=11154

I have a federal firearms license. I daresay that I know more about guns and the relationship between warfare and weapons development than most gun nuts here on DU.

If YOU don't understand the internal mechanisms of assault weapons I suggest that you are too ignorant of the topic to have this discussion.




https://www.democraticunderground.com/1172197860#post19

et seq.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1172191999#post51

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1172197860#post55

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1172197860#post87

et seq.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/12629113#post2
 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
14. More of that kind of thing, in re the AR-15:
Wed Sep 4, 2019, 03:51 PM
Sep 2019
https://www.democraticunderground.com/126211593#post3


3. I'm bookmarking this for future reference

There has never been any real doubt about the AR being an assault rifle. It has been marketed as such from the beginning. It was only after the general public began to recognize it for the threat it is that the NRA launched a major marketing campaign to change the name from Assault Weapon to Popular Sporting Rifle.


https://www.democraticunderground.com/1172199103#post67

Since the NRA discovered that after years of marketing the AR as an assault weapon it was getting a bad reputation among the general public they started a concentrated effort to re-badge the gun as a "popular sporting rifle".


https://www.democraticunderground.com/1172199103#post103


103. Do tell.

"Since the NRA discovered that after years of marketing the AR as an assault weapon it was getting a bad reputation among the general public they started a concentrated effort to re-badge the gun as a "popular sporting rifle". This is a totally and completely new and fictional kind of gun."


How long had they been "marketing the AR as an assault weapon" before 1963, when this ad appeared?





And why was the NRA doing Colt's marketing for them? Do they actually create advertising campaigns for manufacturers, or do they just run the ads for free in the American Rifleman?



Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #14)

yagotme

(2,847 posts)
25. DING DING DING!!! We have a winner!!!
Sat Sep 7, 2019, 12:47 PM
Sep 2019

Whoever wrote that didn't know Stoner that well. There are Former Marines. Not Ex. Therefore, the rest of his statement falls into question...

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,470 posts)
6. re: He died long before any mass shootings occurred.
Mon Sep 2, 2019, 06:24 PM
Sep 2019

Mr Stoner died April 24, 1997

Since these shootings were major crimes and 10 or more people were killed at each one, I'm sure his family is mistaken.
1949 Camden shootings
1966 University of Texas tower shooting
1975 Easter Sunday massacre
1982 Wilkes-Barre shootings
1983 Wah Mee massacre
1984 San Ysidro McDonald's massacre
1984 Palm Sunday massacre
1986 Edmond post office shooting
1991 Luby's shooting

Many firearms were designed for the military and have been used by civilians for legal purposes.

 

Marengo

(3,477 posts)
12. Seems more a case of stuffing words in a dead man's mouth so to speak. The AR-15 has been
Wed Sep 4, 2019, 08:12 AM
Sep 2019

A available for civilian sales since 1964. He had more than enough time to speak up if he truly felt that way.

Straw Man

(6,613 posts)
18. Exactly.
Thu Sep 5, 2019, 01:42 AM
Sep 2019

He didn't say it when he was alive, but in posthumous hindsight they are eager to assert that he would have done so had he been asked.

I think it's a defensive reaction on their part to the public shaming that is attaching itself to anything AR-15-related.

Straw Man

(6,613 posts)
20. Stoner didn't invent the select-fire rifle.
Fri Sep 6, 2019, 02:17 AM
Sep 2019

He merely refined and modernized it.

This AR-fetishism is getting absurd.

Straw Man

(6,613 posts)
22. Mass murder weapon?
Sat Sep 7, 2019, 12:31 AM
Sep 2019

Here's the weapon that was used in the deadliest mass killing to date in the United States:

Straw Man

(6,613 posts)
26. Thank you for your detailed and nuanced response.
Sat Sep 7, 2019, 12:52 PM
Sep 2019

I will ponder it deeply and respond as time permits.

jpak

(41,741 posts)
29. Your response to my question was "detailed and nuanced" - lol
Sat Sep 7, 2019, 07:13 PM
Sep 2019

If you were referring to David Koreash and Branch Davidians, they used assault weapons to kill and injure federal LEO - before they burned themselves down.

Lawn Darts were banned after one death.

The AR-15 death toll is in the thousands and counting....

Have a wonderful night!

yagotme

(2,847 posts)
31. Diesel fuel, ammonium nitrate, Oklahoma.
Sat Sep 7, 2019, 07:49 PM
Sep 2019

Ring any bells?

ETA: Along with jet fuel in tall buildings. Just remembered the upcoming date after posting.

jpak

(41,741 posts)
32. Yeah - fucking militia gun nuts
Sat Sep 7, 2019, 07:58 PM
Sep 2019

That own shit like AR-15s

Gun nut fail

Again

Oh - yeah.

AR-15s have killed more Americans than OKC and 9/11 combined

Epic Fail

Straw Man

(6,613 posts)
34. Pardon my asking, but ...
Sat Sep 7, 2019, 10:41 PM
Sep 2019
AR-15s have killed more Americans than OKC and 9/11 combined

... I'd like to see a citation for that. What's your source?

Straw Man

(6,613 posts)
33. At least it contained factual information.
Sat Sep 7, 2019, 10:39 PM
Sep 2019

No, not the Branch Davidians. Google "the Happy Land Social Club fire." Read and learn.

ManiacJoe

(10,136 posts)
35. Why it is wrong is easy to answer.
Sun Sep 8, 2019, 07:16 PM
Sep 2019

The AR-15 style rifles are semi-auto rifles.
By definition, that means they cannot be weapon of mass destruction.

There is no such category as "mass murder weapon". The concept is pure silliness. Any object can be used as a weapon to commit mass murder if one tries hard enough.

If you want to have a meaningful conversation, you first need to define the terms you are making up on the fly.

jpak

(41,741 posts)
36. Ask the parents of Sandy Hook if they want to have that discussion
Sun Sep 8, 2019, 07:21 PM
Sep 2019

case

closed

The AR-15 is indefensible.

Yup

ManiacJoe

(10,136 posts)
37. If you are not interested, why did you jump into the discussion?
Sun Sep 8, 2019, 07:32 PM
Sep 2019

Unfortunately for any discussion purposes, the Sandy Hook parents are just as ignorant about guns and their laws as you are. That makes having any real discussion rather difficult.

If you believe there is something special about AR-15 style rifles that causes them to need extra restrictions that other rifles do not need, please let us know what it is.

jpak

(41,741 posts)
40. Except they are (like other stupid mass murder weapons like them) are the preferred gun of
Sun Sep 8, 2019, 08:02 PM
Sep 2019

mass murderers.

Fact

ManiacJoe

(10,136 posts)
41. It is not surprising to find the top selling rifle
Sun Sep 8, 2019, 08:10 PM
Sep 2019

at the top of the "criminally-used rifle" list. The fact that any kind of rifle used in crimes is relatively small in number just skews the stats even more.

This is like saying that the Toyota Camry is the most popular bank-robbery get-away car. As true (or not) as it may be, it does not help in discussions about bank robberies.

Straw Man

(6,613 posts)
43. And it's not surprising that ...
Mon Sep 9, 2019, 01:37 AM
Sep 2019

... "90% of crime guns come from 5% of licensed dealers," as I've heard bandied about so much lately. Uh ... yeah. Those are mega-dealers who outsell Ma and Pa Gunshop by a factor of ... oh, shall we say 20 to 1? We're talking Wal-Mart, Bass Pro, Academy, Gander, Bud's, Hyatt, etc. Arguably, 90% of all guns come from that 5%.

The number itself is no indicator of corrupt practice, especially since it doesn't account for any changes in the chain of custody from point of sale to use in a crime.

Straw Man

(6,613 posts)
42. Preferred gun?
Sun Sep 8, 2019, 11:36 PM
Sep 2019

As in "I want to commit mass murder, but if I can't get my preferred weapon, I think I'll just go home and look for a movie on Netflix"?

Some facts are more useful than others.

oneshooter

(8,614 posts)
45. " they have killed hundreds "
Mon Sep 9, 2019, 04:56 PM
Sep 2019

And how many of these " hundreds " were killed by the AR-15, WITH OUT the hand of a human controlling it?

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
49. The OP is virtue-signalling bullshit- his family as of yet hasn't renounced his money...
Mon Sep 9, 2019, 10:13 PM
Sep 2019

...Stoner said bupkis publicly about civilian use of his design while he was alive, and the claim that
"he died long before any mass shootings occured" is demonstrably false, as see:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1172208791#post6


Mr Stoner died April 24, 1997

Since these shootings were major crimes and 10 or more people were killed at each one, I'm sure his family is mistaken.
1949 Camden shootings
1966 University of Texas tower shooting
1975 Easter Sunday massacre
1982 Wilkes-Barre shootings
1983 Wah Mee massacre
1984 San Ysidro McDonald's massacre
1984 Palm Sunday massacre
1986 Edmond post office shooting
1991 Luby's shooting


On the plus side, because of this thread we've all learned a new template for non-responsive responses to inconvenient questions:

"A noun, a verb, and something derogatory about guns and/or gun owners"
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