as it cycled the round out of the chamber after firing?

...have a laser. The expensive high class guns for the 1%ers come with a Frenchman, canvas and some charcoals and pastels. I hear he's fast.

and why is law enforcement exempt?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_microstamping
http://www.officer.com/article/10249197/microstamping-calls-the-shots

if they have nothing to be afraid of...

...they should be FIRST and FOREMOST with this technology. Just like dashboard cams.

Microstamping is a waste of time and resources.

1-2. Oh derp I misunderstood the concept. This is just silly.

3. There's already a very simple way to obliterate the utility of shell casings as evidence -- use a revolver.

with the patent on the technology...

Last edited Wed Jun 13, 2012, 02:12 PM - Edit history (1)

I'm sure they'll come up with something to make wheel guns ridiculously expensive that won't work either.

Then we'll all get more lectures, from people that are proud of their technical ignorance, about more "loopholes" that need to be closed.

I can see the term "revolver loophole" being all over the media after this law passes. We as a nation are smart enough not to go down this road, right?

is for the expansion of the SOP to include discussion of firearms for the purpose of education.

Know your facts first before you post something?

with some sort of creative speculation clause so we could discuss the evil crime causing waves that guns transmit?

...ban stupid posts and keep handy some bullshit repellant.

I like the idea of adding a clickbox like the recommend button that reads "dumb and not worth reading". When the "dumbs" pass 5 and equal or exceed 2 times the recs, the post gets auto-hidden.

kill the group...

Shit, we need some entertain value. Kick me, beat me, slander my name, just don't bore me.

the name of that school. Something Ridge...

the stamp starts to wear down with the first hammer strike. pretty soon, the stamp is unreadable.
And its very easy for criminals to file down the pin.

You really want to fuck with LE? Go to a shooting range and grab a bunch of spent casings, and spread them at a crime scene.
Do you see a problem with this?
Why do you post this debunked bullshit? Don't you do your homework first?

The wide variety of shells dropped leads law enforcement to the hypothesis that it is a random collection from a firing range.

Then suppose one person at the firing range is using a rare kind of ammunition, and you drop some of that person's shells around.

That leads back to particular firing range you collected the bullets from.

And then that leads to one more piece of evidence pointing to you, if it happens to be a range you've visited, or a gun club at which you are a member.

You'd have to convince a third-party to collect shells from a firing range that you have nothing to do with, and hope they don't blab.

we now must ban THIS...

That is just too funny.

I guess we need to register files and microstamp them now.

Uh oh. I just created file humor file humor, which will now require its own file.

They don't leave shell casings at a scene, unless you need to reload.

But aside from that... it only tracks the gun to the registered owner of the gun. So not only do we have to register all guns (give the government a list of all of our firearms, continuously updated), the trail will go cold the instant the gun is lost or stolen because criminals don't register their guns.


Plus... microstamping wears away or can be removed with a file or sandpaper.

It's a no-go.

... just like those California compliant AR rifles.

Obviously revolvers are just another gun lover trick to get around the law.

<sarcasm> off

homicides by firearm continue their downward trend (preliminary 2010 data here showing values for 2009 as well), so the justification for microstamping continues to dwindle.

Requiring people to ahere to a set of laws that are ineffective in achieving desired goals is nothing more than a poor tradeoff. The people get zero benefits in exchange for less freedom. Fuck That.

Microstamping can be criminally defeated in about 5 minutes with a nail file, simply using a cheap revolver, or dropping a handfull of random range-brass at the crime scene.

You can't change stupid, unlike these ridiculous stamps.

you can't fix stupid.

God forbid the price of a gun goes up by $10 in order to make it easier for police officers to solve gun crimes!

do you not understand?
This can be defeated in so many different ways. Unless the cops get a shell casing from a gun that hasn't been fired very much, it would be useless.
Just another banners useless law that would do nothing to help solve crimes.

Thanks for the VPC and Brady talking points.
See I can do it too.

So prove what I have said is wrong instead of trying to smear what I said.
I'll wait.

All the gun control supporters have going for them is "online indignation".

They haven't had a legislative or judicial win in over a decade and their only contribution to supporting their "cause" in the real world is a series of rude, unsupported rants and whines. Hell, I asked weeks ago for a link to a single, serious Dem candidate actually running for a major office with stronger gun control as a major part of their platform. Still waiting.

None of the control supporters are actually doing anything out in the real world, like starting petitions, joining Brady or any other gun control organization. Hell, even if they wanted to, outside of this forum by Skinner, there isn't a single Gun Control website out there that allows any actual two sided discussion of the issues. No grass roots and no popular support either. Just a lot of poutrage combined with feeble attempts to to get posters here banned and the forum closed and "sanitized for their protection".

In the meantime the last state (mine) is looking at finally passing CCW, no state is even thinking about repealing it, in fact carry laws are getting more liberal in most states, and even after all the "Sturm und Drang" over the Fla SYG laws, they are actually doing nothing about it.

The entire strategy for more gun control seems to be; "Write more angry, rude online posts about it!"

So learn to laugh at them, it really seems to piss them off that no one takes them seriously. All while violent crime continues to drop.

didn't mean to accuse you of anything. Please accept my apology.

Because I haven't seen you do anything to refute them. Does the fact that it's a talking point make it any less true, or any less devastating to the idiotic notion of microstamping?

you will be accused of using NRA talking points to smear your post.

Of course, it will not be perfect, but a stamp that shows up half the time is much better than no stamp, particularly if there are several casings at a crime scene, there's a good chance one of them will show up. And the technology will keep improving -- this is 2012, I'm pretty sure we can figure out how to stamp an identifier on a casing.

The NRA's talking points here remind me a lot of wall street banks arguing against financial regulations. They point to the fact that no regulation will be 100% effective, and there will always be ways to get around the laws and blah blah blah. This doesn't have to solve all crimes in order to be worthwhile.

there is a whole other issue with case and bullet ballistic markings changing over time. Something CSI:Billings overlooks.

I agree with the point that it does not have to solve all crimes. The Brady talking point would likely be "If it only solves one crime..."

We have to look at the overall cost/benefit. The economics is variable between $200 and $12 per gun. That needs to be brought closer to what the actual cost would be. Will states have consistent requirements or can each set up its own version of microstamping. It will allow tracing to the original owner, what about reselling? Is this a back door to full registration? How will this affect guns already in circulation, will they have to be retrofit? How many crimes per year is it guestimated that it will help solve. Will it be more effective than the Canadian registry experience?

If the technology can be made reliable, at a reasonable cost and show how it will lead to solve crimes and not just hassle gun owners I would be very willing to consider it.

Since I think handguns should be registered anyway, the whole "backdoor to registration" argument doesn't matter to me. But even without registration, I think microstamping would be a good idea. As for the cost per gun, $200 is the estimate from the gun industry, so I give it as much weight as I give any industry that is trying to avoid regulations.

As for the "solving just one crime" argument, the value of a "statistical human life" is generally estimated at around $5M to $10M, for the sake of things like trying to figure out how much safety regulation is economically efficient. As an estimate, let's say it's costs $10 per gun, and 20 million guns are sold every year in the US. That means it would have to save between 20 and 40 lives per year nationwide in order to be worthwhile. I'm pretty sure that just having a national handgun registry, even without the microstamping, would save more lives per year than that.

registration if not for how it has been used historically.

The other side of the cost besides the cold calculations of the value of a life (not a slam, just the way things work) is the cost to those who will get caught up in the system through error, accident and identification.

I have to run but will expand on this later

I believe the gun manufacturers $200 claim as much as I believe the $12 claim. There will be a cost of retooling and if each state can set separate standards, it could be prohibitively expensive. It makes me wounder if this is a new tactic by anti-gun municipalities since the plan to sue manufacturers didn't work out.

If the Canadian experience is an example, we would not see 20+ crimes a year solved.

One benefit I do see is it would be a good incentive to report a stolen gun, just so if it shows up at a crime scene the prior owner is not the subject of a witch hunt.
Unfortunately, many gun owners are less than model citizens. Not saying that they break any laws but they can often match the stereotype RW beer guzzling good ol' boy. They could be subject to the easy witch hunt and that would be as unfair as frisking every long-haired teen skateboarder for marijuana.

Rather than throwing up half measures that make pro-controllers look like gun-grabbing zealots, (ala AWB) I would rather wait until we can find a policy, backed with a technology that can serve the purpose for reducing crime and convicting criminals while following the most open interpretation of the 2A

The govt. has no fucking right to know what I own. All registration does is give the govt a list of gun owners which can possibly be used for confiscation in the future. And don't tell me it hasn't happened, it happened in CA. with so called assault weapons.

You may trust the govt., I have a healthy mistrust of govt. when it comes to firearms.

Still trust the government more?

Everyone knows gun registration is the first step towards FEMA death camps!!!

(yes, here in the gungeon it's necessary...)

If you change ISPs, have a dynamic addressing (most people do), or move down the street, the IP address changes. Of course, if you get a new ether card, modem etc. your MAC address changes.

They can both be used to identify your computer on a network.

in the same sense guns are registered. It more like a street address. It is a poor analogy.

Here's an idea. Why don't we place chips in firearms with MAC addresses that will connect to an IP address when the weapon is discharged and leave a record of use? Would that be an acceptable method of "registration"?

Let's see you engineer the power supply, chipset, and radio antenna in a package that could easily and cheaply (very cheaply) integrate with all current personal firearms. Now who is going to pay for the management of a database tracking 300,000,000+ firearms?

and must be tamper-resistant! I'm loath to mention it, but it would also be nice if you found a way to make the tracking of individual firearms discharges consistent with the desperate scenario of resistance against the government?

...say, Mike Smith, and come up with a list of all the computers you own?

Even ones you have but are not turned on, or not connected to the internet?

And of course you've filled out the required paperwork and paid a registration fee, right?



Does the local or state government get to make the privilege of computer ownership "may issue", or "shall issue"?

Half-past-never, is my guess.

The purpose of microstamping legislation is to create mandatory profit for microstamp tech manufacturers, and drive up the price of firearms by perhaps hundreds of dollars in order to impede the exercise of a civil right.

It would cost nowhere near that.

It might adversely impact the price of newer guns in back alley deals.

Stormfront, Minutemen, TBaggers or hundreds of local right wing gun groups. Just more obfuscation from gun industry and it's right wing supporters.

Sources I have seen say cost would be less than $12 per gun. Triple it, I don't care -- it's still a proposal worthwhile, unless you want to consider registration.

since one company seems to have the monopoly on the technology, I'm guessing there is a chance that this is an astroturf group set up by the company?

Sad truth is, the numbers are going to depend entirely on the point of view of the source. You will never trust a pro-gun source, I will never trust an anti-gun source, and I don't see any neutral sources or, frankly, the possibility of neutrality. There's only one company (a Hitachi brand, I believe) which has the ability to set the price. Might as well require that all cars be equipped with some particular gadget from Motorola, and only from Motorola.

But either way, NSSF is for sportsmen. It's about the use of firearms for hunting and target shooting, not for defense. They tend to be more placid about the whole gun rights issue.

crud to them.

BTW -- that's how NSSF describes themselves.

...don't have any facts to back up that $12/per gun claim. What you in fact read was a failed piece of legislation that mandated it would not cost more that $12/gun. Nice bit of misrepresentation you tried there Hoyt. Fortunately most here are educated enough to see through such claims...



U.C. Davis did a study (yeah, let's see you claim RW support there ) on the feasibility of microstamping and came to the conclusion that while it sounds good on paper, it is far from as foolproof as those like you would claim it is.

http://www.news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=8643

Corrections.

http://www.news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=8163

Last edited Fri Jun 15, 2012, 02:50 PM - Edit history (1)

That's a favorite tactic of those who promote more guns and oppose every proposal that might keep a gun toter from getting away with murder -- if it's not 100%, it's no good.

Microstamping is just a refinement of COBIS. It's a forensic shortcut (akin to having people's names and Social Security numbers engraved into their fingerprints), but it's the same investigative process: recovering brass from a crime scene to match it to a registered semi-automatic handgun. In New York State's experience, in ten years COBIS did not solve one single crime. Not one. Zero percent. Capisci?

Ballistic fingerprinting is useful as corroborating evidence when a weapon has already been recovered. As far as identifying a shooter from brass left at the scene? Not so much, apparently.

Do you even grasp what microstamping is? Do you not understand that all firearms technically already microstamp a unique pattern onto the cases and bullets they fire due to microscopic details left by the machines that made them? COBIS failed with microstamping....period.

Oh, yeah:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seduction_of_the_Innocent

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_panic

...suitable for anti-gun religionists. Even if every gun made starting today had microstamping there are still 300,000,000+ million guns that don't. Complete idiocy to think that microstamping it's some sort of magic cure. I'm not surprised at those that champion it here do though.

Treat all guns and gun owners as if they are, or shortly will be, criminals and eventually you might catch a real crook. Hasn't worked anywhere that's tried it and millions of $ have been wasted, but you guys will try anything to finally win one.

That'll work about as well as Trickle Down Economics did.

But considering the gun control crowd and the supporters of it on this board, won't even get off the couch to write a letter to the editor, start a petition or do anything besides whine online and write more angry/rude/ignorant posts, I'm not going to worry too much about this latest hair brained scheme actually coming to pass.

... I wouldn't need a car?

As soon as you fire the first round, the stamp starts to wear down. It won't work, a nail file or regular file can take care of the stamp. It won't work, shell casings can be planted at a crime scene to throw off an investigation. It won't work because all someone has to do is police their shell casings. It won't work with revolvers.

Continue to stick your head in the sand, but it won't work.
I see your back to your usual name calling again, didn't take long did it?

narrow down gun used in some murders. Doesn't have to work all, or even most, of the time to be worthwhile.

You knowledge of mechanics and physics seems... faulty... at best... for someone who can field-strip a 1911 underwater.

P.S. Have you ever heard of items called "emery board" or "emery cloth"?

But yeah, I am against stupid things that won't work... and stupid people who won't think.

At least I don't accuse DUers of wanting to murder people.

Take your crap elsewhere.

murder people.

I have accused much of the gun culture here of being so selfish -- and so caught up in their guns -- that we have to put up with laws backed by lobbying organizations for right wingers who are prepared to shoot someone first chance they get.

If fingerprint ID is legal, I have no idea why this would be in any way controversial.

LEAVE GUN OWNERS ALLLLOONE. I MEAN IT1!!111!

Criminals are not legally required to register their guns as it would violate their 5A rights.

In any case, you would need to outlaw brass catchers too.

sales tax deduction - that would take away one of the opponents' arguments at least...

... love this one. But then, they've never met a piece of gun control legislation they didn't like.

Matching brass left at a crime scene to the gun that fired it is not a new concept. New York had the COBIS (Combined Ballistic Information System) until very recently. That was a physical archive of fired shell casings that could be matched to casings from the same gun by using microscopes to match breech impressions. Instead of reading a neat little number, examiners would have to do something more akin to a fingerprint match. However, it's the same essential theory: pick up brass at the crime scene and match it to the gun that fired it. New semi-autos had to be fired once to provide the casing for the COBIS archive. If the manufacturer chose not to do this, it had to be done by the seller at the State Police range.

So how well did it work? Not very.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/cuomo_whacks_pataki_gun_law_IdjMJUXtMATKjhzqCOJLAK

We could talk why it doesn't work, but the pro-gun-rights crowd already knows and the anti-gun-rights crowd will just go on blathering about "NRA talking points" with their fingers firmly implanted in their ears. The short version is that very few criminals in New York use guns that are legally registered to them -- despite the fact that New York law requires registration of all handguns. Got that? We have registration, and ballistic fingerprinting still doesn't work.

Keep in mind that microstamping is just an extension of ballistic fingerprinting, as if we had our names and social security numbers engraved on our fingertips instead of all those wacky loops and whorls. It wasn't the technology that failed in COBIS; it was the basic premise. Can you match a shell to the gun that fired it? Technogically, yes. Realistically, only if a complex set of behavioral variables are in alignment. The problem is that they rarely are -- almost never, in fact.

Yeah, that Andrew Cuomo. What an NRA stooge -- nothing more than a pro-gun hand-puppet, really.

I always laugh and shake my head, then keep them in the box the firearm came in, just so it can amuse me every time I see it.

Your realize some of the political power that gunowners have. We have been able to block this sillly feel-good law that would accomplish nothing at great cost.

Such a law could make it easier to frame someone. Get one of their expened casings, do the crime, pick up the real brass (Or better, use a revolver.) and drop the fake brass, just make sure the calibers match.

for every hardrive accessible by you that you allow .GOV unfettered 24/7 access to. You have nothing to hide, and it IS for the common good eh komrade?