Religion
Related: About this forumGiant Sawfish Have Virgin Births, Rewrite Biology Textbooks
To the surprise of scientists, giant endangered fish with sawlike snouts in Florida are experiencing virgin births, reproducing without sex. This is the first solid evidence of such asexual reproduction in the wild for any animal with a backbone, scientists added.
http://www.livescience.com/51032-sawfish-have-virgin-births.html
A new religion is born.
exboyfil
(17,865 posts)Punett Square down in disgust. Its bad enough that you get horizontal gene transfer. Now clones.
By the way the link is to a different story.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Until it is, it's just another fake religion.
Do I really need the thingy here?
mr blur
(7,753 posts)the Heavenly Host?
Iggo
(47,599 posts)Iggo
(47,599 posts)Whew!
Okay, I'm back.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)...until such a time that they reach arbitrary population, after which we are required by the very definition of tolerance to treat them with deference and respect.
TwilightGardener
(46,416 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Yorktown
(2,884 posts)Proof of virgin births confirms the stories of Mithra and Horus.
Further proof Mithra and Horus are demi gods upon which the Flying Spaghetti Monster smiles.
RAmen.
struggle4progress
(118,379 posts)In mammals, parthenogenesis produces only females, so we really cannot look there for the origins of Horus or Mithras
The true conception-story for Horus clearly involves sex, though the details are a bit awkward: after mostly reassembling the pieces of her murdered and dismembered husband Osiris, Isis conceived Horus with the help of a golden dildo she attached to the corpse to replace that important body part, lost in the Nile
Nor was the Roman Mithras a virgin birth: ... It is certain that Mithras is born from a rock ... It seems, in fact, that having sex with stones was somewhat popular back in the day, which (as the Pseudo-Plutarch in De fluviis XXIII par 4 reports) may explain the origin of some mountains: ...Mithras desirous to have a son, yet hating woman-kind, lay with a stone, till he had heated it to that degree that the stone grew big, and at the prefixed time was delivered of a son, called Diorphus; who, growing up and contending with Mars for courage and stoutness, was by him slain, and by the providence of the Gods was transformed into the mountain which was called Diorphus ...
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)struggle4progress
(118,379 posts)Yorktown
(2,884 posts)So if Osiris conceives a child with the only use of an inanimate object, it's not parthenogenesis?
Please do elaborate.
struggle4progress
(118,379 posts)Yorktown
(2,884 posts)..closing the Osiris chapter
I am impressed.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Something about the FSM must really hit a nerve with you.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Be specific.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Short attention spans around here.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Give me specifics how i have been conducting a campaign.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Blocking it from groups you host (that ironically enough are based around tolerance and inclusion) and so on.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)about this and you think i am waging a campaign.
This is bull. You said i am trying to keep this off of du. Prove it.
I am for keeping it out of interfaith and the prayer circle. I am not for banning it in DU.
Your game is transparent and you play it poorly.
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)Especially if you are representing interfaith dialogue.
Parody? In what is it more a parody than the fairy tale about Moses? Or the genesis myth?
How about the righteous daughters of Lot raping dad just after god picked them for salvation?
And the prophet sending shebears to maul kids for mocking him? Not a parody?
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)Fair is fair, I suppose.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Yorktown
(2,884 posts)Just demanding respect for my faith here and now.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Fsm is a parody and it will be treated like such.
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I call it host consensus.
Response to hrmjustin (Reply #73)
Yorktown This message was self-deleted by its author.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Yorktown
(2,884 posts)You take everything personally, don't you?
An image is meant to convey a parallel in graphic terms.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)We are done.
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)You claim you're not for banning it, but you promote intolerance of it and cheer when you think that a group won't be formed for it.
So much for Christian spirit. Your agenda is loud and clear, you have your group (your welcome) no one else can have one unless it passes your arbitrary test.
Hypocrisy is in the bible, your god was against it.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)look bad is only making you look bad.
Njoy your game all you want. Name call all you want. You called me an oppressor a few posts ago.
Seems like you good at name calling but you play your game poorly.
Your not fooling me.
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)Our Church just demands equal treatment and equal respect.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I said no as do the other hosts.
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Oh yes i have some thoughts but i really don't know you.
The others i know their game.
It is to make me look bad as they have tried and failed for years.
Oh yes i have my faults and have had to apologize on more then one occasion.
But i know nothing about you.
Respect is earned.
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)I don't know you. I have nothing for or against you. And mo reason to make you look bad.
I am just making the case for my religion on a discussion forum about religions.
And respect for religions is not earned, it's a reciprocal due.
Or accept disrespect for your religion.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Does not bother me.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Even when a member of the church, several in fact, tell you your wrong you insist on mislabeling them. Why are you so scared to even give them a chance?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)and your friends play this game.
But you lost. The owner of this site stood by our decision and agreed with the interfaith host it is a joke and it does not belong in interfaith.
And the owner will not create this new fsm room. He saw right through this.
Oh i find it hilarious. You guys went all in on this as and lost.
Game over.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)And you think a website administrator has the authority to declare what is and isn't a religion? He has about as much right as you do. Maybe if you listened to the adherents and what they have to say you'd calm down about this, but you're more interested in scoring points for, what your god?
I'm sure she apreciates the hate your spreading.
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)Theological quantum fluctuation?
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Our priest would always say she during the Eucharist.
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Yorktown
(2,884 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Goodbye.
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)Don't take figures of speech over literally
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)You are lucky i did not alert on you to give you your fifth hide Which is what i should have done!
You had to self delete because you knew no jury would keep what you posted.
I should have screen saved it.
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)It is a debating forum. Images are figures of speech/debate.
I did not say you were a white supremacist (something rather unlikely in this site)
I thank you for not reporting it, but it was meant as a parallel argument from power.
And I deleted it at your suggestion as many people here read things in a PC literal way.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)As far as i am concerned the fsm issue is settled.
You went too far tonight with me and i will speak with you no more.
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Usually done by female priests.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)It is just not compatible with the two rooms i host.
The hidden posts in the prayer circle show that.
if i felt threatened by it i would avoid the poster who posts it.
I find it amusing.
Now the owner is the final authority on this sosite for what is and is not allowed.
And yes the owner responded tp the threads posted at the same time of the request for the fsm group.
No response means no group.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Both from your religion and from being a host, might want to check that.
As a host you could choose to declare it legitimate in the groups, but you don't. Why does it upset you so? You're practicly livid in this read, and when you realize you've been bested you attempt to squash the whole thing under the weight of privilege. Your premature gravedanxing is sickening.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Ran out of arguments?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)You generally are one of the smarter posters here but you went too far with me tonight.
We are done.
You may be done (gonna leave out the "who is we" game some here love to play) ere, but this is still an issue. FSM is winning court cases when people challenge their status, I'd think a progressive board would be on e right side of things. We shall see.
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)In this forum on 'religion', you should respect the beliefs of the Pastafarians.
If not
1- you are disrespectful and hurtful
2- you are claiming bronze age religion privilege
3- you are creating an atmosphere of enmity between religions (*)
(*) seeing your disrespect makes me wish to become disrespectful of other religions.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Yorktown
(2,884 posts)LostOne4Ever
(9,302 posts)[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]I am personally holding out hope till after Friday.
Even then, I don't plan to give up. Things change and just because this time we lost who can say the outcome will be the same next week? Or next month? Or next year? Who knows?
It might be possible, that the reason we got a pocket veto was because York had alienated the owners with his posts and if we try again in the future we might be more successful.
And truth be told, I kinda wanted to start this group LONG before York started posting here (in case you can't tell I have been having a lot of fun with this) but I didn't bring it up because I didn't want to be a host. When york brought his thread to A&A I saw it as a chance to get the ball rolling.
When york's post in general was hidden it finally angered me to action. All we were doing was looking for supporters, and we were not even allowed to do that? But like all things done it anger, I was probably acting prematurely. I should have let the issue cool off a bit and any bad feeling between the owners and york be forgotten.
If we failed, it probably has more to do with me being a chicken-shit before, and me being a hot-head now. But I am not giving up. I will find victory in this defeat, learn from my mistakes and try again in the not too distant future.
Have a good night Captain Justin.[/font]
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)I'll be damned by the Great Flying Spaghetti Monster if I can see how I would have created a bad feeling among owners I know nothing about.
I just tried pushing the cause of the Holy Flying Spaghetti Monster in an environment which is new to me and seems to have lots of untold rules.
I do hope people who created a website with so many users don't take against noobs who just try things their way, not knowing all the local codes.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Yorktown
(2,884 posts)Alleged reason by 'reporter': "This member (me) has been trolling Skinner"
Holy Spaghetti: I was blissfully unaware of Skinner until someone suggested to me to write a request in 'Ask the Administrators'.
One or two 'believers' seem to have strange ways to apply the message of love of their religions to the realm of every day interaction with fellow members of this website.
LostOne4Ever
(9,302 posts)[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Might have come across wrong.
Nothing more than that. I don't plan to give up and I am sure you aren't willing to give up either [/font]
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)Not hiding behind someone else, just saying I tried to conform to local rules.
I know one of my two advisers was surprised by the subsequent 'hide' it got me.
LostOne4Ever
(9,302 posts)Response to Yorktown (Reply #117)
LostOne4Ever This message was self-deleted by its author.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Can you tell us the history of it and why it exists and is popular? Do you even know why it exists?
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)As for His story, please scroll down the threads to
New Religions (3) the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Please proceed!
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)Only when the seriousness of the stories of Moses, Genesis and all the saints can be defended would it become possible to start mocking the beliefs I hold dear.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Yorktown
(2,884 posts)From the get go, the inspired person who revived this ancient religion of ours in the modern times was careful to insist it was not, had never been meant as a parody but as a serious faith.
Which is why any and all jabs taking our faith less than seriously are so hurtful.
Why, o why, do you disrespect my faith?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)this is not a safe haven.
Your "faith" statrted as a parody and will be treated like such.
The owner thinks it is a joke.
http://election.democraticunderground.com/12597940#post1
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)The 'about us' page of the official site of my faith is very clear about this point:
The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, while having existed in secrecy for hundreds of years, only recently came into the mainstream when this letter was published in May 2005.
With millions, if not thousands, of devout worshippers, the Church of the FSM is widely considered a legitimate religion, even by its opponents mostly fundamentalist Christians, who have accepted that our God has larger balls than theirs.
Some claim that the church is purely a thought experiment, satire, illustrating that Intelligent Design is not science, but rather a pseudoscience manufactured by Christians to push Creationism into public schools. These people are mistaken. The Church of FSM is real, totally legit, and backed by hard science. Anything that comes across as humor or satire is purely coincidental.
Further
Pastafarianism is a real religion.
http://www.venganza.org/about/
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)But i appreciate your persistence.
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)Or risk seeing yours not respected as a 'real' religion
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I think you are posting this to try religion look foolish and to me look bad for not allowing this in the prayer circle or interfaith.
I simply do not believe you.
Note to jury the owner agrees it is not real.
http://election.democraticunderground.com/12597940#post1
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)In the name of reciprocity, you should respect other people faiths.
Especially when you are the local authority on interfaith dialogue.
Can just one person make religion look foolish?
I can assure you I did not post about my religion with you in mind.
(I only thought of your role re my religion when interfaith was discussed)
I do not see why you should deny my faith, just based on your beliefs.
We already noted the fact above. Let's move on to other aspects of my faith.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I do not respect a parody that people try to parade around as if it is true.
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)Belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster gives me hope and helps me live my life.
Your open disbelief in my faith, well that's just your opinion man.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Enjoy.
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Yorktown
(2,884 posts)I suggest we save the discussion about dead people becoming undead for a real thread.
Maybe after one about the untraceable Moses.
Back to THE Jesus, do you agree John Turturro played the part well?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Yorktown
(2,884 posts)I have faith in that Lebowski.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Yorktown
(2,884 posts)When the Dude signs his check, GHW Bush (dad) speaks on TV about Iraq.
The check is dated 9/11. (around 3:00 in the clip)
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Yorktown
(2,884 posts)Unbelief might cause one to become a nihilist.
Believing in nossing.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)Find the one this year and go. Watch the film first, and then go watch it with the fans. You'll love it. Really.
I went to the Lebwoskifest in Milwaukee two years ago and it was great. They are having one again this August.
Dorian Gray
(13,535 posts)Lebowski is worth watching. Over and over again! Great movie. (And I was sad I didn't make the Lebowski fest, but my favorite ice cream shop in Brooklyn currently has The Dude as a flavor. (Essentially White Russian!)
Now I have to go get ice cream!
struggle4progress
(118,379 posts)in reptiles, birds and sharks of 'virgin birth' in captivity. This raises many questions about how common this mode of reproduction is in the wild". In the phenomenon called parthenogenesis, female egg cells can develop into a baby without being fertilized by a male's sperm cells. In this process, a precursor cell divides into four cells. The one that becomes the egg cell continues to have key cellular structures and the gel-like cytoplasm and other three cells hold extra genetic material ...
A FIRST: PARTHENOGENESIS SEEN IN A VERTEBRATE IN WILD
Submitted by Gloria Bradley on Tue, 06/02/2015 - 13:55
Facultative parthenogenesis discovered in wild vertebrates
Warren Booth, Charles F. Smith, Pamela H. Eskridge, Shannon K. Hoss, Joseph R. Mendelson, Gordon W. Schuett
Published 12 September 2012
Abstract
Facultative parthenogenesis (FP) ... has been documented in a variety of multi-cellular organisms but only recently in snakes, varanid lizards, birds and sharks. Unlike the approximately 80 taxa of unisexual reptiles, amphibians and fishes that exist in nature, FP has yet to be documented in the wild. Based on captive documentation, it appears that FP is widespread in squamate reptiles (snakes, lizards and amphisbaenians), and its occurrence in nature seems inevitable, yet the task of detecting FP in wild individuals has been deemed formidable. Here we show, using microsatellite DNA genotyping and litter characteristics, the first cases of FP in wild-collected pregnant females and their offspring of two closely related species of North American pitviper snakesthe copperhead (Agkistrodon contortrix) and cottonmouth (Agkistrodon piscivorus). Our findings support the view that non-hybrid origins of parthenogenesis, such as FP, are more common in squamates than previously thought ...
edhopper
(33,667 posts)in Jurassic Park?
Response to Warren Stupidity (Original post)
Post removed
HassleCat
(6,409 posts)They could be true hermaphrodites, creatures capable of impregnating themselves. Some animals can change gender when necessary, and some have been discovered to have both male and female reproductive organs, but none have been found to have a completely self-contained reproductive system, with fully functioning make and female organs. I'm curious to know more.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)and reproduce by Parthenogenesis.
This might be a viable survival strategy when a species suffers from a population collapse, or when the sexes aren't balanced correctly. Other species can change sexes to cope with changing population dynamics, others reproduce asexually. I would say, if sexual reproduction isn't introduced after too long a time, eventually the lack of gene mixing will result in a more homogeneous species more vulnerable to extinction.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)This was the first observed occurrence in the wild.
But yeah, this is a desperation move for a species. Makes some sense though, produces a lot more females so that any surviving males will have many more opportunities to mate, and the species can rebound quicker.
But without sexual reproduction to help mix up the genes, their days are numbered.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)that, unfortunately, we are the source of.
I will say that this demonstrates that life, as Ian Malcom would say, "Finds a way". I just hope that we can possibly reverse or alleviate the worst affects of this extinction event. Part of the reason I'm all for them experimenting with Mammoth DNA to see if they can bring an extinct species back to life. It will be a good learning experience, especially if they can clone a viable, breeding population. They technically even have a possible habitat to take over, much of the tundra in the northern hemisphere is bereft of large megafauna, most likely due to climate change at the end of the last ice age combined with possible overhunting by humans. Also a reason I'm a fan of DNA banks for all currently extant and extinct animals and seed banks for extant and extinct plants.
I could easily imagine that in a few short decades, we could clone and develop embryos without the need for surrogate mother, external, artificial placentas. This will be a boon in attempting to reintroduce and save endangered and extinct species. We have even create, if we don't have a large enough DNA pool, engineered variance so inbreeding can be avoided.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)If successful, will at least let us preserve species for the future so that if we can get our shit together and figure out how to coexist, we can bring them back.
Or we could just pray, I suppose.
Dorian Gray
(13,535 posts)was the most interesting in the entire topic. Thanks for the scientific discussion. It's a lot to think about. Nature and Science are amazing, and the thought about reintroducing extinct species into the world is a fascinating one. (Jurassic Park, notwithstanding!)
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)DNA has a half life of about 521 years, which is very short. That means about half the information is lost in that time period, give or take. Mammoths have been extinct for longer than that, however, maybe not too much longer, and we have a LOT of preserved Mammoth tissue. This helps, because we can fill the gaps with lots of samples, because its not like the same half of the DNA present(or more) is destroyed over time. We can, through sequencing, figure out where the holes are, infer what information is supposed to be there, and fill them with either other DNA samples, or possibly elephant DNA. Kinda like what they demonstrated in that cartoon on Jurassic Park.
Problem with Jurassic Park is time, we are talking about species that have been extinct millions of years, not thousands, so if any DNA is preserved, which is highly unlikely, it would be too degraded to be useful. The Mammoths we would resurrect would be, at best, accurate DNA reconstructions, not straight clones.
Dorian Gray
(13,535 posts)really freaking cool.