Religion
Related: About this forumTranshumanism is not Atheism and is often Misrecognized Religion
Last edited Mon Jun 15, 2015, 11:34 AM - Edit history (1)
http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/cannon20150614By Lincoln Cannon
Metacannon
Posted: Jun 14, 2015
Some Transhumanists have a hard time distinguishing between Transhumanism and atheism, and some Transhumanists have a hard time recognizing the religious behavior in which they are engaged.
First I have a few thoughts to share regarding any atheists attack on religion. I agree that religion certainly has been and is used for evil, perhaps even the greatest evils in human history. Focusing on those, however, in an account of religion is like focusing on nuclear weapons in an account of technology. Simply because really terrible things have been and are done with technology doesnt mean that technology is inherently and exhaustively evil. To the contrary, much good has also been done with technology, and an account of technology is not complete without acknowledging that. The same is true of religion, which I contend is the most powerful social technology, for both evil and good.
Of course there are risks in religion. If were not careful with religion, it can turn people into superstitious zombies. But if we avoid religion altogether, we relinquish its organizing and inspiring power. Be warned: when the most vital moments of life press our civilization, religion will drive irreligion to the wall. The strenuous mood, organized into collective action, will dominate, whether its domination comes about through compassionate influence or oppressive compulsion. Either way, it will be religion, even if evolved beyond historic and present manifestations of the religious function.
more at link
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)" Be warned: when the most vital moments of life press our civilization, religion will drive irreligion to the wall."
Yay, happy fun execution time.
Seriously?
muriel_volestrangler
(101,426 posts)Not content with merely winning the match, they used every opportunity to push the inferior team to the wall.
...
up against the wall,
a) placed against a wall to be executed by a firing squad.
b) in a crucial or critical position, especially one in which defeat or failure seems imminent:
Unless sales improve next month, the company will be up against the wall.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/drive+to+wall
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)TexasProgresive
(12,165 posts)There are lots of metaphors that use wall. The ones you state are valid but not unique.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)evokes being "up against the wall" as in at the moment of elimination.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Phrasing is important. The marathon example involves encountering an obstacle, not being driven into something by a 3rd party.
I'm actually a member of Marathon Maniacs, so I have some expertise in your example.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)The company isn't in jeopardy because being up against the wall is a uncool place to hang out and all the uncool kids are there, it's jeopardy because the continued existence of the company is in question. It's an existential threat.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,426 posts)That's why 'driven to the wall' is not about 'execution'. It's a different phrase. The first one I gave is #16 under 'wall' at that link, the second is #21.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)The company is against that wall against its will, implying it was forced there, and it does not wish to be there due to a sword of Damocles like doom hanging over it.
It is precisely about the expectation of being terminated. You've actually reinforced my point with your example.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,426 posts)which was what you objected to. You have said "phrasing is important"; I agree, which is why you should not be claiming the 'up against the wall' phrase means the same thing as 'driven to the wall'. The dictionary has them listed as separate idioms. The writer used 'driven', not 'up against'. The dictionary example for that is about a team in a match, not a company against the wall.
If you think that a losing team is always 'terminated', that's your own idiosyncratic view of things.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Keep in mind the context, the author specified one group doing something to another group.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,426 posts)OED: "to drive (or push) to the wall : to drive to the last extremity."
1st use, 1546:
"J. Heywood Dialogue Prouerbes Eng. Tongue ii. v. sig. Hiiiv, That dede without words shal dryue him to the wal. And further than the wall, he can not go."
This predates the idea of executing people up against a wall.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Not an individual pressed to a wall against their own volition. You do not seem to understand the idiom you have cited.
Why do you think that predates people being executed against a wall? It doesn't even predate firearms let alone crossbows or bows.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,426 posts)Where did that come from? Read it again. "shal dryue him to the wal" - not "he shall drive to the wall". "Him" is the object of the sentence.
I'll give you the other quotations:
1644 W. Prynne & C. Walker True Relation Prosecution N. Fiennes 34 The Colonell thus driven to the wall and worsted on every hand, used two pleas more for his last reserve.
1817 Scott Rob Roy III. v. 127, I see what you are driving me to the wa' about.
1828 W. F. Napier Hist. War Peninsula I. iii. iii. 336 The commissaries pushed to the wall by the delay, offered an exorbitant remuneration.
1860 L. V. Harcourt Diaries G. Rose II. 30 Being..driven to the wall, Addington complied.
See? Something or someone else drives a person to the wall, and then they are left without a choice, and forced into a particular action. The alternatives in the OED Thesaurus are "to drive into a corner" and "to corner".
People in the 16th century were not executed against a wall with firearms, or bows for that matter.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)He is not being driven to the wall by a third party, he is driving there of his own actions.
People were executed by firearm in the mid thirteenth century. Though, I will grant they were more often tied to a tree.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,426 posts)And it's unwilling, not someone pressing forward and encountering resistance; the 'deed' is adultery, and if it's he's caught doing it.
And if ye chance in adultery to catch him,
Then ye have him on the hip, or on the hurdle;
Then have ye his head fast under your girdle;
Where your words now do but rub him on the gall,
That deed without words shall drive him to the wall.
And further than the wall he cannot go,
But must submit himself; and if it hap so
...
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=pK07AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=That+deed+without+words+shall+drive+him+to+the+wall&source=bl&ots=pGcW5jCMW5&sig=xqHECOavfK7ITYWDObn3mgJ5Aw8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAGoVChMIzNuevMCSxgIVCzsUCh0niAB8#v=onepage&q=That%20deed%20without%20words%20shall%20drive%20him%20to%20the%20wall&f=false
The uses, and the primary meaning given by the Oxford English Dictionary, are all clearly about one person or event driving another to the wall. As, for that matter, is the use in the OP you're having an outrage party about.
Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #25)
AtheistCrusader This message was self-deleted by its author.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)"The 'to the wall' phrase raised some disagreement around whether it meant more 'up against the wall' as in a firing squad, or some other 'pressed to the limit' type connotation. Any clarification would be helpful, if you have time. Thank you, in advance."
My intention is a mix of the two interpretations you suggested. Religion will press irreligion as far as it can go, and if it does not respond with religious strenuosity of its own, it will become subservient to religion. Assuming I'm right, it's vital that we associate the religious impulse with the most constructive and life-affirming values we can imagine, to preserve them in the face of attacks from escapist and nihilistic impulses.
Substitute my 'imminent doom' with his 'subservient', and uh, yeah. Think I had it right.
Good game, next match.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,426 posts)'Driven to the wall', meaning 'cornered', as you drive a flock of sheep against a wall when you're controlled it. Yes, subservient fits, but execution doesn't. So I don't think you can just say 'substitute ...' without changing the meaning you're putting on it. The James' passage is not about killing:
human possibilities that even if there were no metaphysical or
traditional grounds for believing in a God, men would postulate one
simply as a pretext for living hard, and getting out of the game of
existence its keenest possibilities of zest. Our attitude towards
concrete evils is entirely different in a world where we believe there
are none but finite demanders, from what it is in one where we joyously
face tragedy for an infinite demander's sake. Every sort of energy and
endurance, of courage and capacity for handling life's evils, is set
free in those who have religious faith. For this reason the strenuous
type of character will on the battle-field of human history always
outwear the easy-going type, and religion will drive irreligion to the
wall.
TexasProgresive
(12,165 posts)It might be more helpful if there was rational evaluation showing that this is actually suggesting execution. To say that this person is advocating execution of atheist appears similar to me to this:
Robert Jeffress: Gay Wedding Cake Wars Will Escalate Into Full-Fledged Holocaust Against Christians
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113744678
I think that we should be more careful, I think rational thinking is what separates us from freepers and RWRNJs. Please prove me right.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Honestly, I think it's useless hyperbole, and I do not take it seriously. I think it more speaks to the authors credibility.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Which explains his overt hostility to atheism and his devotion to irrational religiosity
Response to cbayer (Original post)
struggle4progress This message was self-deleted by its author.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)struggle4progress
(118,379 posts)Jim__
(14,098 posts)From another of his essays - linked to from the essay cited in the OP:
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I also think that non-theists often find it offensive to have things like this called religion.