Religion

cbayer

(146,218 posts) Tue Jun 23, 2015, 08:32 AM Jun 2015

Will the left ever get religion?

https://www.opendemocracy.net/transformation/michael-edwards/will-left-ever-get-religion

MICHAEL EDWARDS 23 June 2015

Can there ever be a truly successful, secular revolution?

Credit: http://blindgossip.com/. All rights reserved.

Why does religion drive so many people nuts? That’s the question that opens and closes our debate on religion and social change. On the surface the answer is obvious, at least for progressives—it’s because of the damage that’s been done by religion to the causes they hold dear: independence and equality for women, gay marriage and LGBTQ rights, peace and protection from zealots and fanatics, and safety in the face of sexual abuse. How come the ineffable being is always a bloke with a beard who privileges others who look the same as him? Religion has become the mother-lode of patriarchy, stupidity, homophobia and all things conservative.

But the opposite is also true: religion gives tremendous strength and staying power to the struggle for equality and social justice. It’s a force that makes people go to jail for their beliefs, break into nuclear weapons facilities and daub biblical slogans on the walls, found social movements that change society, organize workers to stand up for their rights, and confront dictators at the cost of their own lives. Religious groups are also the mainstays of health, education, social welfare and community-level conflict prevention in many countries. For Dorothy Day, Cesar Chavez, Martin Luther King, Oscar Romero and many others, religion isn’t incidental to social change, it’s pivotal—it’s the reason why they are willing to give so much to the cause.

Faced by these contradictory realities, what’s the best response for those committed to radical transformation? Ignoring, belittling or actively opposing religion all have their supporters, but active, open and critical engagement is likely to be much more effective, for at least three reasons.

First, the world is increasingly religious, and is likely to continue along this path. According to data from the Pew Center for Research on Religion, 84 per cent of adults in their global surveys said they were affiliated to one religion or another in 2010, a figure that’s projected to rise to 87 per cent by 2050—if for no other reason than the demographic growth of the Islamic population, which accounts for much of this extrapolated expansion.

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19 replies

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Highlight:

Will the left ever get religion? (Original Post) cbayer Jun 2015 OP

Wasn't it Jefferson who 'edited' his Bible? Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jun 2015 #1

Jefferson did edit his bible. cbayer Jun 2015 #3

What? He "edited" it to deliberately remove Warren Stupidity Jun 2015 #4

There already was one. trotsky Jun 2015 #2

Maybe it's because the most backward, edhopper Jun 2015 #5

The parts of the world where religiosity is Warren Stupidity Jun 2015 #6

And that "rise in religion" edhopper Jun 2015 #7

Will a fish ever get a bicycle? AtheistCrusader Jun 2015 #8

Only if they can marry it... truebrit71 Jun 2015 #11

Oh, snap! n/t trotsky Jun 2015 #12

YOU WIN TEH INTERSTESTS Heddi Jun 2015 #13

Most of my congregation would identify as progressive. hrmjustin Jun 2015 #9

I assume most DUers who are also members of church are affiliated with fairly progressive churches. cbayer Jun 2015 #10

We actually get a fair amount of converts from non-believers in my parish. hrmjustin Jun 2015 #14

I think there is change in both directions. cbayer Jun 2015 #17

I doubt that progressive activists would be knee-jerk DerekG Jun 2015 #15

I agree and it makes me wonder about what kind of exposure that those that are so hostile cbayer Jun 2015 #18

It does make one wonder. trotsky Jun 2015 #19

Why this article is full of crap Yorktown Jun 2015 #16

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)

1. Wasn't it Jefferson who 'edited' his Bible?

Reply to cbayer (Original post)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 08:37 AM

Jun 2015

For the left to quit being so wary of or outright disgusted with religion requires a major modern 'makeover', editing out large chunks of the racist, homophobic, patriarchal roots of most religions.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)

3. Jefferson did edit his bible.

Reply to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #1)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 08:47 AM

Jun 2015

He did it primarily to make it speak more to him and not so much as a political statement.

He did it literally, but I think many do it metaphorically.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/how-thomas-jefferson-created-his-own-bible-5659505/?no-ist

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)

4. What? He "edited" it to deliberately remove

Reply to cbayer (Reply #3)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 08:54 AM

Jun 2015

all of the miracles and related nonsense in order to demonstrate that one could follow the rational ethical guidance in the New Testament without having to also believe in ridiculous bullshit.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)

2. There already was one.

Reply to cbayer (Original post)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 08:37 AM

Jun 2015

It's called the United States of America.

Honestly the crap you dig up sometimes, cbayer.

edhopper

(33,667 posts)

5. Maybe it's because the most backward,

Reply to cbayer (Original post)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 09:00 AM

Jun 2015

least progressive States are also the most religious.
Maybe some of us "get' religion all to well.

And "but active, open and critical engagement is likely to be much more effective, for at least three reasons."

Is just called religious bigotry anyway.

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)

6. The parts of the world where religiosity is

Reply to cbayer (Original post)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 09:08 AM

Jun 2015

increasing are the parts where religious fundamentalism is also on the rise. The author wants us to abandon the increasingly successful effort to reduce the influence of religion in the other parts of the world in order to reach out to the non-existent "liberal" religious in that other demographic.

He brings up the Arab Spring - but why? That was an appalling failure that enabled a fundamentalist revolution in Egypt and gave birth to Isis in Syria and Iraq.

He quotes Emma Goldman but neglects to mention that she was a vocal atheist and antitheist very much in the New Atheist mold.

In short, the author is full of shit.

edhopper

(33,667 posts)

7. And that "rise in religion"

Reply to Warren Stupidity (Reply #6)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 10:31 AM

Jun 2015

is almost all due to population growth in those countries. You know the thing the Pope won't talk about.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)

8. Will a fish ever get a bicycle?

Reply to cbayer (Original post)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 11:04 AM

Jun 2015

truebrit71

(20,805 posts)

11. Only if they can marry it...

Reply to AtheistCrusader (Reply #8)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 02:57 PM

Jun 2015

...

trotsky

(49,533 posts)

12. Oh, snap! n/t

Reply to truebrit71 (Reply #11)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 04:18 PM

Jun 2015

Heddi

(18,312 posts)

13. YOU WIN TEH INTERSTESTS

Reply to truebrit71 (Reply #11)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 06:30 PM

Jun 2015

I know the intermest are not mine to give because they belong to anyone, HOWEVER...

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)

9. Most of my congregation would identify as progressive.

Reply to cbayer (Original post)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 12:39 PM

Jun 2015

I am a proud progressive and person of faith.

Very easy for me.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)

10. I assume most DUers who are also members of church are affiliated with fairly progressive churches.

Reply to hrmjustin (Reply #9)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 01:23 PM

Jun 2015

I think is directed towards the non-religious.

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)

14. We actually get a fair amount of converts from non-believers in my parish.

Reply to cbayer (Reply #10)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 06:54 PM

Jun 2015

But truth be told i doubt many progressive non-believers will ever become a believer.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)

17. I think there is change in both directions.

Reply to hrmjustin (Reply #14)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 06:43 AM

Jun 2015

Some people are spiritual in a way that may lead them to be believers and others will never be either.

It's the understanding , acceptance and lack of hostility towards others that is key.

DerekG

(2,935 posts)

15. I doubt that progressive activists would be knee-jerk

Reply to cbayer (Original post)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 09:31 PM

Jun 2015

Anyone who's been to anti-war or anti-poverty rallies will have met plenty of people of faith, and consequently harbor a more nuanced appraisal of religion and its adherents.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)

18. I agree and it makes me wonder about what kind of exposure that those that are so hostile

Reply to DerekG (Reply #15)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 06:44 AM

Jun 2015

towards all things religious have had.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)

19. It does make one wonder.

Reply to cbayer (Reply #18)

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 08:43 AM

Jun 2015

Since it appears to be a straw man of your creation - these people who are "hostile towards all things religious."

Criticism is not hostility. Questioning is not hostility. You don't help discussion AT ALL by characterizing those who disagree with you so dishonestly.

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)

16. Why this article is full of crap

Reply to cbayer (Original post)

Tue Jun 23, 2015, 10:50 PM

Jun 2015

First paragraph says progressives are wary of religion because of all its backward stance.
So far, so good.

Then comes that second paragraph, as fine a pile of rubbish as ever crafted:

But the opposite is also true: religion gives tremendous strength and staying power to the struggle for equality and social justice. It’s a force that makes people go to jail for their beliefs, break into nuclear weapons facilities and daub biblical slogans on the walls, found social movements that change society, organize workers to stand up for their rights, and confront dictators at the cost of their own lives. Religious groups are also the mainstays of health, education, social welfare and community-level conflict prevention in many countries. For Dorothy Day, Cesar Chavez, Martin Luther King, Oscar Romero and many others, religion isn’t incidental to social change, it’s pivotal—it’s the reason why they are willing to give so much to the cause.

Let's break that down. he's really trying to make only two points:

religion gives tremendous strength and staying power to the struggle for equality and social justice

Equality and social justice? Really? In Islam, men are superior to women, non-muslims must pay special taxes, children in mixed couples must be raised muslim, other relgions cannot advertise their beliefs, etc. Where is the equality there? Where is the Christian message of social justice to same sex couples?

Then comes the wonderful fallacy of the second argument:

Religious groups are also the mainstays of health, education, social welfare

What a joke.
- health? Condoms in Africa? Opposition to vaccination by Talibans or the RCC in Africa?
- education? Teaching kids Adam beats darwin, genesis beats the Big Bang?
- social welfare? the Hezbollah/Muslim Brotherhood welfare is pork barrel politics.

The P&L of religion is in negative territory, time to cut the losses.

Teaching cosmology and evolution in primary schools would be a nice first step.

(That, and teaching how the Flying Spaghetti Mnster initiated the Big Bang,
and guided darwinian evolution with its loving noodly appendage, of course)

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