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How do we know which is the true form a religion? (Original Post) CJCRANE Jul 2015 OP
There is no such thing. Act_of_Reparation Jul 2015 #1
I think the true form of a religion is set down in its tenets and dogma. Maedhros Jul 2015 #2
Is Catholicism the true form of Christianity skepticscott Jul 2015 #4
So when the eastern catholic church and western catholic church split Warren Stupidity Jul 2015 #5
I asked that question many years ago xfundy Jul 2015 #3
Simple, it's the denomination which reflects what God actually wants... brooklynite Jul 2015 #6
If you start a question with a completely faulty premise, cbayer Jul 2015 #7
You have failed to grasp the deeper message of the question skepticscott Jul 2015 #8
Yes, there is a true form of religion... CJCRANE Jul 2015 #9
Ok, can you share what that is? cbayer Jul 2015 #10
I'm being facetious but it's a serious point: CJCRANE Jul 2015 #11
I agree that people feel they have found the right one... cbayer Jul 2015 #12
The ideologies themselves specify that only one (or none) is correct. AtheistCrusader Jul 2015 #18
Faulty premise? trotsky Jul 2015 #13
Stop that! skepticscott Jul 2015 #14
Personally, I'm not a theophobe. Arugula Latte Jul 2015 #60
Anti-theist apolagists? Lordquinton Jul 2015 #17
If two religions make mutually exclusive claims about the nature of or demands of god(s) AtheistCrusader Jul 2015 #16
But...but... skepticscott Jul 2015 #21
The one that has the most money? mr blur Jul 2015 #15
I have no clue. pinto Jul 2015 #19
The one with the heaviest artillery, at least according to Napoleon Fumesucker Jul 2015 #20
Give me 10% of your wealth every year and I will give you immortality Angry Dragon Jul 2015 #22
Every religion through time was certain they knew the truth Marrah_G Jul 2015 #23
Are we talking about the One True Religion here? stone space Jul 2015 #24
Except that when you ask skepticscott Jul 2015 #25
Hey, welcome back!!! trotsky Jul 2015 #26
When searching for truth in music or poetry, what kind of "test" do you use? stone space Jul 2015 #27
I'm glad you're back! trotsky Jul 2015 #28
I assume that your problems with discernment... stone space Jul 2015 #29
So glad you're back, your last return was so brief. trotsky Jul 2015 #30
Sometimes religious folks expand on the poetry and explain the metaphors via actions. stone space Jul 2015 #31
Lots of religions (and religious people) leave me guessing and scratching my head. trotsky Jul 2015 #32
When it comes to discernment, that one is an easy call for me. stone space Jul 2015 #33
I find it much preferable to speak Truth to Power. AlbertCat Jul 2015 #35
Did you read the article? stone space Jul 2015 #36
Did you read the article? AlbertCat Jul 2015 #59
You certainly haven't lost much of your style from your repeated timeouts. trotsky Jul 2015 #39
Because he stabbed several people. That's one clue. This isn't rocket science. stone space Jul 2015 #40
So you have to use information and values from outside religion to judge the truth... trotsky Jul 2015 #41
I'm an atheist. Even us atheists have moral values. stone space Jul 2015 #44
So you admit that one must use information from outside a religion... trotsky Jul 2015 #45
It's so easy you can't explain it. Act_of_Reparation Jul 2015 #43
What's to explain? Guy stabbed several people at a gay pride parade. stone space Jul 2015 #46
Oh, I discern lots of things. Act_of_Reparation Jul 2015 #47
That stabbing folks at a gay pride parage is morally wrong. stone space Jul 2015 #48
I discerned that. And so did everyone else. Act_of_Reparation Jul 2015 #49
What did you discern from my example, above? stone space Jul 2015 #50
I already told you what I discerned. Act_of_Reparation Jul 2015 #58
I don't recall, say, a Yeats fan stabbing people at an Angelou reading event. AlbertCat Jul 2015 #34
!!! trotsky Jul 2015 #38
Yeah, you can search and search and never find a damn thing. AtheistCrusader Jul 2015 #37
Well...yeah...I've certainly run into that problem when it comes to Gun Worship. stone space Jul 2015 #42
Where did Houser get his hatred of women? AtheistCrusader Jul 2015 #51
How many more must die at the hands of your Gods of Metal? stone space Jul 2015 #52
I'm an atheist. I don't sin. I don't have idols. I don't have cults. You're thinking of someone else AtheistCrusader Jul 2015 #54
For an atheist, you do seem to put quite a bit of faith in the Holy Gun. (nt) stone space Jul 2015 #55
Your perception is faulty, if I 'seem' to exhibit 'faith' in anything. AtheistCrusader Jul 2015 #56
If Houser the woman-hating white christian terrorist had used a pipe bomb in his muders, where would AtheistCrusader Jul 2015 #57
the are all equally true( or false) bowens43 Jul 2015 #53

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
1. There is no such thing.
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 04:45 PM
Jul 2015

There is too much variation within the world's major religions to define them in meaningful propositional terms.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
2. I think the true form of a religion is set down in its tenets and dogma.
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 05:53 PM
Jul 2015

The true form of Roman Catholicism, for example, is codified in the Catechism.

Many, many variations echo from these true forms, however.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
5. So when the eastern catholic church and western catholic church split
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 07:25 PM
Jul 2015

starting around 1053, which one was the true religion?

brooklynite

(94,974 posts)
6. Simple, it's the denomination which reflects what God actually wants...
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 09:13 PM
Jul 2015

...but since God doesn't exist, it'll be hard to figure out which one that is.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
7. If you start a question with a completely faulty premise,
Thu Jul 2, 2015, 07:02 AM
Jul 2015

I'm not sure what responses you might expect to get, other than snark and derision.

Do you think there is a true form of religion?

CJCRANE

(18,184 posts)
9. Yes, there is a true form of religion...
Thu Jul 2, 2015, 08:34 AM
Jul 2015

My interpretation.

Now I've just got to convince everyone else.

CJCRANE

(18,184 posts)
11. I'm being facetious but it's a serious point:
Thu Jul 2, 2015, 09:00 AM
Jul 2015

Most people think their interpretation is the correct one...until someone comes along and convinces them otherwise (or they change their mind for whatever reason).



cbayer

(146,218 posts)
12. I agree that people feel they have found the right one...
Thu Jul 2, 2015, 09:03 AM
Jul 2015

for them at least.

While some feel it is also the best for everyone, that's not always the case and seems to be changing in significant ways.

I suspect you have ideologies and beliefs that you think are correct. You may even think they are correct for everyone and until someone comes along and convinces you otherwise, I doubt you will change your mind.

You know what you know and so do others.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
18. The ideologies themselves specify that only one (or none) is correct.
Thu Jul 2, 2015, 04:13 PM
Jul 2015

There are precious few and little-followed relations that allow for multiples, but most of THOSE only take the sandbox approach. (Everyone can play, like the Unitarian Universalists, who can join hands but not resolve ideological differences. )

It's not about what he thinks. It's about the revealed truth claims of a given religion and its mutually exclusive incompatibility with other religions. (Or the natural world)

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
14. Stop that!
Thu Jul 2, 2015, 12:32 PM
Jul 2015

Totally not fair to use someone's own words against them..that's bullying!!!

You evil theophobe.

 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
60. Personally, I'm not a theophobe.
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 09:03 PM
Jul 2015

But, because of recent revelations, I have turned into a cliffophobe.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
16. If two religions make mutually exclusive claims about the nature of or demands of god(s)
Thu Jul 2, 2015, 04:02 PM
Jul 2015

Then only one can be true. (Both can be wrong)

Buddhism allows for God like supernatural (but similarly damaged/imperfect like humans) beings, but no creator deity. Salvation/enlightenment comes from within.

Christianity requires a singular supreme creator deity through which is the only path to salvation.

These are mutually exclusive claims. They cannot both be true. One or both are wrong.


Which is wrong, and which, if any, are right?
That was the nature of 'true' the author was alluding to.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
21. But...but...
Fri Jul 3, 2015, 07:04 PM
Jul 2015

Blind men! Elephant! That's the answer to everything. Christians and Buddhists are just feeling different appendages of god.

Marrah_G

(28,581 posts)
23. Every religion through time was certain they knew the truth
Wed Jul 15, 2015, 01:50 AM
Jul 2015

Those who worshipped Zues or Thor were as every bit certain that they were real and true Gods as modern religions are certain that theirs is the real one. Someday, the God of Abraham will be read about as mythology.

 

stone space

(6,498 posts)
24. Are we talking about the One True Religion here?
Thu Jul 30, 2015, 05:59 AM
Jul 2015

I really don't understand the question.

One can search for truth in many places, and religion is one of those places.

But when you put the definite article "the" in front of it, it makes it appear as if there is only one "truth".

I can't answer the question in that form, since it strikes me as being a lot like asking which mathematics is the true mathematics.

There is much truth in mathematics, and even though many of those truths may contradict one another, that in and of itself is not considered a major problem by most mathematicians in our search for mathematical truth.

For me, as an atheist, finding truth anywhere (even in religion) means looking at the details.

Contradictory truths are not a problem for me, given my background as a mathematician.



 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
25. Except that when you ask
Thu Jul 30, 2015, 06:54 AM
Jul 2015

what is the true form of A religion, as this poster did, none of your objections makes sense. Many religious believers make such claims about their version, but that doesn't happen at all in mathematics, so the two are not remotely analogous. Different religious spheres are not defined by agreed-upon postulates either, so that's yet another flame-out for your analogy.

How was the vacation, btw?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
26. Hey, welcome back!!!
Thu Jul 30, 2015, 09:06 AM
Jul 2015

Wow, it's been a while!

"One can search for truth in many places, and religion is one of those places."

How would one validate if they found "truth" in a religion? Is there some kind of test or check one can perform?

 

stone space

(6,498 posts)
27. When searching for truth in music or poetry, what kind of "test" do you use?
Thu Jul 30, 2015, 11:13 PM
Jul 2015
How would one validate if they found "truth" in a religion? Is there some kind of test or check one can perform?


I guess that I'm not understanding the problem here.

Difficulties with discernment are not restricted to religion.



trotsky

(49,533 posts)
28. I'm glad you're back!
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 07:07 AM
Jul 2015

Did you enjoy your break?

The difficulties of discernment in religion are unique. Do you know why?

 

stone space

(6,498 posts)
29. I assume that your problems with discernment...
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 07:45 AM
Jul 2015

...in religion are somewhat related to my own problems with discernment in poetry.

We just don't get it, that's all.

Something about the way our minds work.

Oh, well...it takes all kinds...

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
30. So glad you're back, your last return was so brief.
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 08:33 AM
Jul 2015

So no answer for me, huh? It does indeed take all kinds! Do you discern any difference at all between poetry and religion?

Let me give you a hint: has anyone established the Church of Whitman?

 

stone space

(6,498 posts)
31. Sometimes religious folks expand on the poetry and explain the metaphors via actions.
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 08:40 AM
Jul 2015

Poets tend to just leave you guessing and scratching your head.

But hey, that's just me.

I can get the metaphors eventually, but somebody needs to hold my hand and walk me thru them.




trotsky

(49,533 posts)
32. Lots of religions (and religious people) leave me guessing and scratching my head.
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 08:50 AM
Jul 2015

Like this guy:
Repeat attacker stabs 6 at Jerusalem gay pride parade

I mean, seriously...

I don't recall, say, a Yeats fan stabbing people at an Angelou reading event.

Have I mentioned how great it is to have you back from yet another vacation?

 

stone space

(6,498 posts)
33. When it comes to discernment, that one is an easy call for me.
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 09:15 AM
Jul 2015

Stabbing six people at a gay pride parade is an action that speaks Power to Truth.

I find it much preferable to speak Truth to Power.

Distinguishing between speaking Power to Truth and speaking Truth to Power requires some discernment, but in the case you cited, the level of discernment required is rather low.

But if you compare your example with another example, you might begin to see and understand the difference between speaking Power to Truth and speaking Truth to Power.

You posted an example of speaking Power to Truth.

Here is an example of speaking Truth to Power.

Can you tell the difference when you examine both examples side by side?

“It’s idolatry, putting trust in weapons. And weapons are made like gods. … Weapons are always false gods because they make money. It’s profiteering.”

---Sister Megan Rice---

The Prophets of Oakridge

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/wp-style/2013/09/13/the-prophets-of-oak-ridge/?tid=ptv_rellink




trotsky

(49,533 posts)
39. You certainly haven't lost much of your style from your repeated timeouts.
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 10:01 AM
Jul 2015

I began this subthread by asking you how we could verify "truth" in religion. The attacker in that news story thinks he has religious truth. How do you know he's wrong? Tell me, because that will answer my question. Better yet, tell HIM, so he doesn't attack again. Can you do that?

 

stone space

(6,498 posts)
40. Because he stabbed several people. That's one clue. This isn't rocket science.
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 10:06 AM
Jul 2015
How do you know he's wrong? Tell me, because that will answer my question.


Seriously, discernment isn't as difficult as you think it is.

There are difficult cases, but you seem to be getting hung up on the easy stuff.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
41. So you have to use information and values from outside religion to judge the truth...
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 10:30 AM
Jul 2015

of a religious claim?

Is that what you're saying?

 

stone space

(6,498 posts)
44. I'm an atheist. Even us atheists have moral values.
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 10:40 AM
Jul 2015

And, like everybody else, we use those moral values in discernment.

Is it really that hard to understand?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
45. So you admit that one must use information from outside a religion...
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 10:42 AM
Jul 2015

to judge the truth of a religious claim.

Thank you.

 

stone space

(6,498 posts)
46. What's to explain? Guy stabbed several people at a gay pride parade.
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 10:44 AM
Jul 2015

If that's not enough to get your powers of discernment up and running, I really have to wonder what it would take.


Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
47. Oh, I discern lots of things.
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 10:55 AM
Jul 2015

What is it, specifically, you think I should be discerning from Trotsky's example?

 

stone space

(6,498 posts)
48. That stabbing folks at a gay pride parage is morally wrong.
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 11:00 AM
Jul 2015

It is an example of speaking Power to Truth, not an example of speaking Truth to Power, as my example illustrates.

By the use of discernment, we can quite easily distinguish between the two.

These are not hard cases.

I don't understand why folks are treating them like they are hard or ambiguous cases.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
49. I discerned that. And so did everyone else.
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 11:11 AM
Jul 2015

The problem you are encountering is not that people have no discernment, but that you have no fucking idea how discernment works.

 

stone space

(6,498 posts)
50. What did you discern from my example, above?
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 11:13 AM
Jul 2015

Were they speaking Power to Truth, or were they speaking Truth to Power?

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
58. I already told you what I discerned.
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 12:32 PM
Jul 2015

You have no fucking idea how discernment works.

In order to discern what is or what is not moral, one must first define their morality. Because morality is subjective, definitions will vary from place to place, time period to time period, and person to person. You cannot, therefore, assume the man from trotsky's article failed to discern right from wrong. All that can be said of him is that he adheres to a moral standard entirely different from the asinine, cliché-ridden, dimestore revolutionary standard you, for some incomprehensible reason, assume is universal.

 

AlbertCat

(17,505 posts)
34. I don't recall, say, a Yeats fan stabbing people at an Angelou reading event.
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 09:43 AM
Jul 2015

Even tho' they should.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
37. Yeah, you can search and search and never find a damn thing.
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 09:54 AM
Jul 2015

"One can search for truth in many places, and religion is one of those places."

I keep looking for a million dollars in my couch cushions, but damned if it hasn't turned up.

 

stone space

(6,498 posts)
42. Well...yeah...I've certainly run into that problem when it comes to Gun Worship.
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 10:31 AM
Jul 2015
Yeah, you can search and search and never find a damn thing.


But that's because it's a Death Cult that practices Human Sacrifice.

Human Sacrifice is a huge red flag for me when it comes to discernment.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027015154

The Rude Pundit - American Has Become a Second Amendment Death Cult

You can remember learning in school or at a museum or maybe on the Discover Channel about human sacrifice in ancient or distant cultures, whether it was the temples of the Aztecs and Incans down south or the bogs of the British Isles, where the Celts performed their rituals. You can remember how you felt: the gruesome fascination followed by disbelief at the stupidity of the reasons. Killing the slaves of a dead master? Ludicrous. And the tribes and nations that sacrificed children, virgins, whoever to appease angry gods just seem insane in retrospect. The circular logic was mind-boggling: We must cut out the hearts of these kids so the gods will make the crops grow and keep away the storms or volcanoes. But if there is a storm or volcano and the crops all die, we'll just sacrifice more kids because obviously we didn't please our mad deities last time.

You know that there were many people in Incan villages in Peru who thought the whole thing was bullshit, that slitting the throat of the woman who lived down the road was entirely unnecessary, that maybe they could spend more time learning about weather and crop rotation. But they didn't dare say anything because they didn't want to piss off the priests and their most devoted followers who might decide that they needed to be sacrificed next. People die all the time because cowards don't speak up.

The mass shooting in Lafayette, Louisiana, hit home, literally, for the Rude Pundit. That's where he grew up. It's where he went to college. It's where his family lives and where he visits twice a year. He can't count the number of times he has been to the Grand movie theater on Johnston Street, right across from the Judice Inn and its delicious Cajun hamburgers. From the Grand, you go northeast on Johnston and make a left on Jefferson Street to get to Parish Ink, the t-shirt and design shop where he regularly bought souvenirs from home to give as gifts, where family bought gifts for him. He spoke a few times to co-owner and designer Jillian Johnson, praising her work and laughing at the puns on the shirts. Johnson was one of two women who were shot and killed by John Russell Houser while they watched the film Trainwreck in the bone-chilling air-conditioning that makes the Grand an oasis in the smothering Lafayette summer.

Many on the left have focused on Houser's despicable beliefs, which are not really that far out of the conservative mainstream anymore. It's an awfully short journey from Scott Walker to Stormfront. On the right, they're more concerned about Houser's mental illness, which is what they always talk about when a white Christian is the one doing the shooting, as if a Muslim man can't have depression exacerbated by drug use that is exploited by a radical ideology to inspire him to violence that ultimately ends his life, as he had wanted.

The Rude Pundit thought about the Inca, the Mayans, the savage tribe of Skull Island when he began trying to piece together something to say about the Lafayette shooting. It's long been apparent that the United States is now a death cult built around the worship of guns. The dead in each shooting, whether it's gang-related in Los Angeles, accidental in Virginia, or mass shooting after mass shooting, are treated as a necessity in order for us to stay safe. How is Sandy Hook any different than the Aztecs stabbing a child to keep the city from destruction? How did that work out for them?

Multiple massacres ago, the Rude Pundit could say he knows someone who knew one of the kids murdered at Sandy Hook. Now he can say he actually met one of the murder victims in Lafayette. What's next in this macabre progression? At some point, despite your faithful devotion, the priests come to sacrifice your family members. Or you.

Our firearm-centered death cult is based on a deliberate misinterpretation of the Second Amendment. No matter what courts or lobbyists or corporate-manipulated citizen-tools say, the Second Amendment has a conditional phrase, "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State." You can pretend that that doesn't matter or you can lie about what it means, but "well-regulated" is in there, and we live in a country that is far, far from regulating guns, let alone militias, well. The Second Amendment wasn't meant to be a murder-suicide pact. It was meant to deal with a widely-spread, small population that wanted to kill the British and some Indians. A rational nation would revisit it to clarify or change it. In the United States, that would probably just mean craven politicians frightening Americans into taking out the opening phrase so no one can bring up the argument against more guns anymore.

In Louisiana, the death cult is practically having a blood orgy on a constant basis. Writes Adam Duvernay in the Lafayette Daily Advertiser, "In 2013, 446 people in Louisiana were killed with with guns, according to statistics collected by the U.S. Center for Disease Control and Prevention. By body count, that placed Louisiana 7th in the nation. In terms of murders per 100,000 residents — 9.6 — the Bayou State was 1st." This is in an article titled, mournfully, obviously, "Analysis: Theater shooting won't change a thing."

If we continue to do nothing, we are all mentally ill and we are all extremists. We are just another bunch of Mayans, watching the high priest politicians cut out the hearts of the children in Newtown, the churchgoers in Charleston, the women in Lafayette, all to appease the malicious gods of the NRA, holding the gore aloft so all may see it, hoping that our sacrifices are deemed worthy, not realizing that the gods are illusions and that we're just killing our way into oblivion.

http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/2015/07/american-has-become-second-amendment.html

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
51. Where did Houser get his hatred of women?
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 11:41 AM
Jul 2015

Shouldn't work outside the home? Be silent in church? Gosh, it's almost as if that's a wide swath of American Christians! Almost as if!

https://christianpundit.wordpress.com/2015/07/27/mass-murderer-houser-equally-yoked-teaching-sexism-condoned-and-advocated-by-some-christians/

A man with a gun in his hand, and NO murderous intent, no dismissal of human life, no hatred for 'the other' is pretty harmless, no?

Houser killed them for reasons that came directly out of that fucking bible, or, specifically, how some people interpret it, and supposedly supernatural security camera in the sky can't be arsed to come down and clarify anything.

Imagine that.

 

stone space

(6,498 posts)
52. How many more must die at the hands of your Gods of Metal?
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 12:05 PM
Jul 2015

It's Idolatry.

Some of us are unbelievers, and we don't want to have anything to do with your Gods of Metal.

We don't need your filthy Death Cult forced down our throats, in our theaters, in our churches, in our classrooms, and in our streets.




AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
54. I'm an atheist. I don't sin. I don't have idols. I don't have cults. You're thinking of someone else
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 12:13 PM
Jul 2015

idol
[ ˈīdl ]

NOUN
an image or representation of a god used as an object of worship.
synonyms: icon · representation of a god · image · effigy · statue · figure ·
More


Herp derp all you want, I don't worship anything.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
57. If Houser the woman-hating white christian terrorist had used a pipe bomb in his muders, where would
Fri Jul 31, 2015, 12:25 PM
Jul 2015

you frantically bury the blame to protect religion then?

Without your gun boogeman, what's left? What do you have for your next act?

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