These are the people who are attempting to create a theocracy here, along with radio and TV shills like Jim Bakker, Pat Robertson, Charles Stanley, Andrew Wommack, Barbara Carmack, Benny Hinn, the Crouch family and the various spawn of Swaggart, Graham and Schuller, who don't all have brick and mortar "churches".

Maybe they just expect democracy like the rest of us?

But if you think those churches are good representations of what Christianity is about, that probably says more about you than it does about Christianity.

it's always about me!

More squirming:

Shucks!

What is Christianity to you?

I asked what it is to you. Unless your name is Joel Osteen your response is a non-response.

You certainly give so many of them out.

are you saying? Or, if you claim the right to define Christianity, will you also admit to my right to define atheism?

You tell me what I'm saying.

Well done. None of us can know, we can only ask.

going to a football game or a U2 concert with 30 or 40 thousand people, but I can't imagine it for church. They must have something appealing though to draw in those crowds I guess.

at the Lakewood Church (formerly The Summit) a number of years ago!

There IS something filling that venue weekly!

They put on a good show, that's a fact. If you're interested in seeing a service and don't live near any of the really huge churches, some of them make their productions available to watch online.

...it's really just a numbers game? Is that what matters?

More of "I've got the biggest...(insert noun here)"?

Let's see...TX...TX...TX (apparently 7 out of 25)...I guess you are probably only allowed to attend only if you drive up in a monster truck.

And yes, some are in extremely large metropolitan areas in Texas. Everything's bigger in Texas!

The 1,500 megachurches are spread out everywhere!

Lots and lots of Democrats, too!

You may be a fan of the "prosperity gospel," yallerdawg, but not many Democrats are.

Can you tell me how many Democrats go to the churches you listed?

After you've done that, you can tell me how anonymous people posting their opinions about religion on a message board are "dismissing" religious Democrats, as you claim?

Seems to me that if a post on a message board discourages a religious Democrat from voting Democratic, they weren't all that committed to Democratic principles to begin with.

But good luck in your quest to get atheists to be silent. The "religiously unaffiliated" are now a greater portion of the population than Catholics. At some point you may want to consider that forcing everyone to say only positive, nice things about religion might be losing more votes than gaining.

You can say whatever you want.

I can say whatever I want.

Many, many Americans are single issue voters. That's why wedges work so well.

Anyone who wanders across this conversation needs to know, Democrats are a tolerant, open-minded, inclusive community, and we don't have 'purity tests' and we don't tell people what they have to think and believe (or not).

We can focus on what we have in common - and we can have 'philosophical' debate over what we don't have in common, with respect and civility (or not ).

I prefer to see all views and push the envelope. Some people prefer only their own view.

So far, I enjoy this tiny little corner of the internet.

I can see a lot of you all do, too!

But you want vocal atheists to shut up because their views, their "pushing the envelope" might scare away votes from Democrats?

You can be loud and proud! It's allowed! - I just offer an alternative viewpoint!

We're a Big Tent party that needs to grow!

Just curious who you think you're arguing against. To me, it resembles this guy:

you are not growing the party.

You are dividing the party.

Not had enough of that yet?

Christian association and religious belief does not make one a Republican or a terrorist or a fool.

who are upset with the saturation of religion in society, and who value secularism?

So again I will state: it seems to me that if a post on a message board discourages a religious Democrat from voting Democratic, they weren't all that committed to Democratic principles to begin with.

You still have yet to demonstrate how anything posted here "divides the party." HAVE YOU EVEN LOOKED AT GENERAL DISCUSSION?!?

Now demonstrate how what's posted here "divides the party." Compare and contrast to the 14 million Bernie vs Hillary threads. Jesus fucking Christ.

Do you get to decide the accepted opinions in the Democratic Party? Are you going to attack everyone who doesn't refrain from discussing the topics you think shouldn't be discussed?

That's hysterical!

I can certainly understand why you won't answer the questions.

What do you think hurts party unity more: my anti-religious rhetoric, or your sexist rhetoric? Just curious.

You label me with "sexist rhetoric" because Democrats can have faith and religious values?

That is a load of crap - and speaks to the intolerance I am referencing.

It's spelled h-y-s-t-e-r-i-c-a-l.

A word derived from the Latin hystericus, meaning "of the womb". A word developed in the 19th century feminizing mental illness by owing uncontrolled emotionality and neuroticism to dysfunction of the uterus.

1. Deriving from or affected by uncontrolled extreme emotion.

But if you want to label me some kind of evil semantics genius, OK?

It's OK to use sexist language as long as you don't mean it to be sexist.

I just used the word and provided the definition for clarification.

But you go ahead and tell me what I am saying.

And the game goes on.

I'm fine pointing out that, intentional or not, you are using language that perpetuates the feminization of mental illness and are thus risking the alienation of a large and reliable Democratic voting bloc. And that, unlike Democrats of faith, this voting bloc is a minority class with a long, demonstrable history of oppression and inequality.

So keep whinging about atheists punching up. It's classy.

Seriously?

Almost as much as you know about genetics.

But I try to be very modest.

You DID mean that literally - didn't you?

1. Deriving from or affected by uncontrolled extreme emotion.

Would you now require me to delete that word from my thesaurus? Stick with hilarious, uproarious, comical, frenzied, frantic, out of control, overwrought, overemotional...?

But keep on, please! Tell me what I'm really saying.

You offer a very mainstream one.

You also don't welcome views that differ from your own, you label it intolerance.

You know, in case you're wondering why people are challenging your words so strongly.

This is the religion group, not the atheist/agnostic group.

You can post whatever you want but it is not an echo chamber!

But you are, by telling those of us with negative opinions about religion to be quiet or else we'll "divide the party."

I just want to be sure people of faith know your opinion is not the policy of the Democratic Party and DU!

I mean, it's not like almost every single Democratic politician is a religious believer and mentions god in their speeches. We definitely need to continue to cater to religious believers and never, ever speak our opinions lest it scares them away from voting for Democrats. Screw non-believing voters, amirite? Who gives a fuck about them?

Whenever anyone asks you a simple, straightforward question, you refuse to answer, as if you're ashamed of your opinions and beliefs. Who knows how different they may be from anyone else's?

Very brave to post that.

YOU think I'm mainstream?

Very.

Not a public forum... Read the top part please.

"Discuss religious and theological issues. All relevant topics are permitted. Believers, non-believers, and everyone in-between are welcome."

Sounds like what we are doing!

That seems like a giant leap of logic to make.

What's why I used the word "may." You should allow him to define his own beliefs, g-man.

Just saying.

One is SBC, the other is non-denominational. Few if any Democrats are likely to be found in either one. Of course, few Democrats are to be found anywhere in the surrounding area. Tarrant County, Texas is overwhelmingly Republican.

But apparently we should be concerned and watch what we say, lest we scare those folks away from voting for Democrats. Because they would, you know, if not for some posts on a website.

Do tell.

Religious belief does not equate to conservative ideology.

Conservative propaganda has tailored wedge issues to attract a portion of those voters.

Was John Kennedy a conservative? Did Catholics turnout for the Democratic Party? And still do?

Namely, that posts by atheists on an anonymous Democratic message board are keeping people from voting for Democrats.

Go.

Like women's rights.

45% of Catholics voted for Clinton.

We don't need them - and more?

You can't show that ANY people declined to vote for Democrats because of posts on DU.

Carry on. Let me know when you have any evidence - at all - to support your claims.

Everyone knows, first impressions last!

If I ran up on DU for the first time, and was greeted with "Could Organized Christianity Really Be the Original Pyramid Scheme?" on the Home Page - trending - I might look somewhere else, never to return.

Much less "Fuck Prayer."



Your attitude is "Never mind. It doesn't matter?"

you THINK it's a problem but you have yet to provide ANY evidence to support your assertion.

I guess you just gotta have "faith", huh?

Any thoughts?

Keep trying.

Those aren't even to most conservative churches in the neighborhood. They're just the biggest individual churches. Many of the smaller churches (and there are many smaller churches) are much more conservative.

Nowadays a lot of churches publish their beliefs online. You can usually find a Statement of Faith page or an Our Mission page or some equivalent that spells out that church's particular doctrines. There's no need to guess if the members of those churches are conservative, because they're proud to tell you if they are.

Every Republican/Christian is a white supremacist.

Nothing extreme about THAT position.

as one can get, although most are not also overt nazis. So how exactly are we supposed to pull those people into our party?

just about everything the party stands for, yes indeed write them the fuck off.

If that is our label, we are not writing them off.

We are running them off!

White Evangelicals are one of the most right wing demographics. Their churches preach overt homophobia and sexism. They are, as a group, racist to the core. In addition, their churches frequently preach some variation on the "prosperity gospel" bullshit that is opposed to all government social welfare programs - healthcare, social security, job safety, environmental regulation, minimum wage regulations etc.

Chase them away? WTF?

But I suppose if the shoe fits...

But it does give me pause with John 2:13.

Who cares about stuff like that? The churches are huge, that's what's important here.

Today there are lots of professional church start-up businesses. They offer a new pastor a complete set up package. With standard phrases, creeds, names, etc...

Marketing is how all those mega-churches have succeeded. They put on quite a show at their services. Jesus is the star, or at least a supporting character in them. In many cases, it's Elmer Gantry writ large. These days, it's more important to have an MBA than an advanced degree from a seminary, I think.

There's a "prosperity gospel" mega-church in my area. The pastor of that one has a daily one-minute ad on the morning TV news on the largest station in the Twin Cities. He produces a new ad every day for that spot, which is broadcast just before the CBS Morning News takes over from the local news broadcast. It's a little mini-sermon, but the word "Jesus" almost never is spoken. Instead the pastor dispenses some homespun advice on living and displays the URL of their website.

It's an interesting exercise in marketing, I think. The cost of doing that daily minute is quite high, I'd think, given air time costs and production costs. It's been going on for over a year now, so it must be successful in growing his congregation and his own revenues.

I'm tempted to attend services there one Sunday, just to see if they bother to talk about religion much at all or if it's just an entertaining fundraising service.

Most televangelists devote much of their time asking for contributions, or "seed money." They often imply that if you don't pay up, you won't get miracles. Many churches require tithing.

Osteen blinks continuously. Psychologists say that excessive blinking is a sign of a liar..

Lakewood, several Southern Baptist Convention churches - pretty scummy people, all around. There may be some decent people in among them, but if there are, why not list them (eg those which are in favour of LGBT and women's rights) rather than just saying which are bigger?

Yallerdawg has done us a service. Lots of Democrats seem to believe that the conservative fundies are a minority of Christians and the beliefs they hold aren't very widely respected. Yallerdawg has provided more evidence that that is not the case - in fact the conservative fundamentalist versions of Christianity are very popular indeed.

"I have friends who are very political. They're pastors and that's what their thing is. But I think sometimes, that the church world, we can take one issue and make it really, really big and it can turn people off where there are many bigger issues. That's why I don't like to be defined by one thing."

"You know, our message is about lifting people up, helping them fulfill their destiny, helping them to forgive in a tough time, how to make it through this life when life tries to push you down."

"I want them to know that God's good, that they can move forward, that they can break an addiction, that they can become who God's created them to be."

"Prosperity is having good relationships, having peace in your mind, being able to sleep at night. But I do believe God wants you to be blessed. He wants you to excel in your career. He wants you to go further than your parents. There's a tradition that says you're supposed to take a vow of poverty if you're going to be a Christian, but I don't believe that."

And if you're claiming he is, you might be on the wrong website.

I hope no one tries to accuse us atheists of religious intolerance ever again, cause I might die from laughter

please fart for me.

grifting religion one bible quote at a time and fill the collection plate.

Osteen looks psychotic?