Benefices, and the 'path to heaven.'

Now, those two single, elderly sisters may not have been harmed by any of it. That's not always the case, though. Sadly, many have been fleeced right into poverty by "pastors" who drive fancy cars and fly in private jets. There are many opportunities in promising forgiveness and eternal life. Some take advantage of those opportunities to grift. Too many, I think.

Have you been to the Vatican? Nice digs there. Fancy place. Must have cost plenty.

“Christianity....The belief that a cosmic Jewish zombie can make you live forever; if you symbolically eat his flesh. and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master; so he can remove an evil force (original sin) from your soul - that is present in humanity (and he KNEW would happen BEFORE he even created man) because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.” – Richard Carrier (et al.)

Sounds solid...

Too complicated. If you want to sell the tip, you have to keep it simple. That's the one rule every pitchman has to learn. Just say, "Jesus Saves!" That's your best open.

Good marketing gets people to do what you want... Such a deal!!
m

Brilliant!

at the time. If I remember right, the first chapter was about what he considered the most successful sales campaign in human history: Christianity.

I'd like to read it, I think.

to reply to you MM. If interested, see the post below (well, I’m thinking it will be below).

or maybe even closely. But your question sure piqued my interest in finding it. So I googled a bunch of guesses yesterday and again this morning in an attempt, but came up empty handed. Sorry.

I do know the author's name (Walter Burns) but that's about it. Couldn't find the book under that name either. We were Peace Corps Volunteers together back in the mid-70s. I was in my mid-twenties at the time and he was retired (I'm guessing early sixties). As a PCV, Walter worked with the country's national development corporation developing foreign markets for local products (mostly mohair wool and associated wool products and African art/decor) and recruiting manufacturing enterprises into the country (textiles mostly). He was a neat guy.

His book was a small, red hardcover (maybe 7x5" and 3/4-1" thick). He brought or had a number of them shipped over and gave them out to some of the folks he worked with and other PCVs. I declined to take one permanently, but as I said, I did look through it. But I do remember that it came up when he and I were having a discussion one day (we used to get together to play chess) and our conversation wandered into religion. That's how I remember the first chapter of his book and the fact that it was about what he called the greatest sales campaign in the history of mankind. I suspect the book was a very limited edition and not a best seller.

The last time I saw or talked with Walter was back in about 1986 or 87. I'm thinking he was in his late 70s at that time, and my memory tells me someone (another ex-PCV but can't remember who exactly) informed me some years ago that he had passed.

Anyway, your question triggered a great trip down memory lane for me. Walter was a remarkable person -- actually, just being a relatively wealthy Peace Corps Volunteer in itself made him remarkable. .... If I ever for some reason remember or find the name of his book, I'll keep youi in mind and let you know.

... a marketing major in college.

In front of cameras, he blinks constantly. Which psychologists say is a sign of lying.

Pyramid schemes at least provide payout to some as the returns are funded by subsequent investors.

Religion pays out nothing other than a conveniently unverifiable promise of reward and punishment doled out as a result of how well one followed the control mechanism.

worth to you, compared with an eternity being burned in the FIRES of HELL? Ask yourself that, kid!

Besides, once you learn the pitch really well, you can go out on your own and start up your own church and cash in, see?

What you describe is another type of fraud that appeals to an audience that requires no proof of payout whatsoever prior to investment.

I never could get the hang of them. Especially long cons. I had to watch "The Sting" a couple of times.

I do know enough to recognize when I'm being conned, though.

...con may be the a more apt description.

My wife and I have a running joke in our house that we're going to start our own community church called "Stairway to Heaven". With just a bit of "seed offerings", I'm certain we can turn that enterprise into quite the money maker!! Plus it's all tax free!! All proceeds benefit "the ministry"!

You do need to be a decent public speaker, of course, but there are classes for that. You need some stuff to say, but every pastor with an Internet account posts his or her sermons, so you can learn from those. You'll need to memorize some Bible verses, too, but you don't actually have to be familiar with the whole thing. You can get by with a couple of the Gospels and a couple of Paul's letters. I recommend Matthew and John for the Gospels and the letters to the Romans and Corinthians. They're the most familiar, so what you say from those books will ring a bell with your audience.

The rest you can pick up from popular religious websites. Once you get through the first year, you'll be all set, really.

It's easy to learn the jargon. It's everywhere.

Now, mind you, not every start-up church prospers. If you want to succeed, you have to tell your audience what it wants and expects to hear, and tell some good stories to illustrate your points. Again, you can steal those stories from all of those church websites. The pastors at those stole them from someone else, too.

There are tons of tax benefits, of course, including your housing costs, etc. The IRS will pretty much leave you alone, because that's what they've been told to do.

Good luck with your grifting!

I always liked Don Imus "first church of the gooey death and the discount house of worship"..
First time I heard that I spit my coffee out!!!
m

Sometimes, it pays them very well indeed. However, you're right that you can't win if you stay put in the same position in the same old pyramid you grew up in. The easiest way to rake in the bucks for yourself is to branch off and start a new church, although there is a fairly high risk of failure with this approach. Alternatively, you can try to work your way up in the church hierarchy until you score a lucrative position. There is a lot of money to be made, even if only a few at the top benefit.

always been big money in religion. The faithful are easy to fleece, look how they've attached themselves to tRump, for example.

it fits...

5 Key Elements of a Ponzi Scheme

The Benefit: A promise that the investment will achieve an above normal rate of return. The rate of return is often specified. The promised rate of return has to be high enough to be worthwhile to the investor but not so high as to be unbelievable.

The Setup: A relatively plausible explanation of how the investment can achieve these above normal rates of return. One often-used explanation is that the investor is skilled or has some inside information. Another possible explanation is that the investor has access to an investment opportunity not otherwise available to the general public.

Initial Credibility: The person running the scheme needs to be believable enough to convince the initial investors to leave their money with him.

Initial Investors Paid Off: For at least a few periods the investors need to make at least the promised rate of return — if not better.

Communicated Successes: Other investors need to hear about the payoffs, such that their numbers grow exponentially. At the very least more money needs to be coming in than is being paid back to investors.

Declare that something can't be eaten unless it has been blessed by a priest. The priest must be paid for the blessing.

I imagine that my circumstance may be atypical, but my experience with my faith/religion has been a bit different (or at least I perceive it to be).

Perhaps it was particular to the IHM Nuns who taught me in grade school and/or the Xaverian Brothers who taught me in high school, not to mention the priests whom I have known for many years, but the main tenets that were taught and emphasized over and over again were:

Love god

Love and take care of your fellow man

Do not judge others

As far as donations to the church are concerned, I haven't done so in quite awhile, but that has never precluded me from attending weekly mass (which I still do).

There was also never an emphasis on doing right or face the possibility of being sent to hell. That would be a selfish reason for acting in a particular manner - i.e., if I do good to avoid punishment, am I really doing good? Nor was heaven offered as a reward - again, if I am doing something for the sole purpose of being rewarded, then am I doing good or being self-serving?

So the emphasis was always on love of god and love of others - regardless of their belief or non-belief.

That is what I believe, and that is the way I try to live my life.

But as I said, perhaps my circumstances are atypical.

In any event, thank you again for posting!

Wishing you well and peace.

Tim

Perhaps you are only a "nominal" Christian.

He or she sounds like a Christian who takes the religion seriously. Why would you think that poster is a nominal Christian? I certainly don't. I respect the sincerity exhibited in that post. Why don't you?

Thre’s QUITE a big difference between “Christian” and “Christianist”. The true Christians try to follow Christ through such teachings as in Matthew 25:35-45 - the “whatever you do to the least of these...” one. The “love God and love thy neighbor as thyself” stuff.

A “Christianist”, as I’ve heard it described, is one who believes the way most of the televangelists have distorted these teachings. The “God wants you to be rich” crap for one thing. The “God-given blessings of wealth and power” that show everybody how you’re somehow holier or better or more worthy in the eyes of God than everybody else is.

At least from what I’ve been taught, and have observed through the years, anyway.

If someone identifies as a Christian, I accept their label for themselves.

"Christianist" isn't really a word that is in common use. It doesn't have a meaning that everyone understands. I think that's your own personal name for someone who isn't a Christian as you define it.

I don't attach modifiers to words like Christian. I'm not qualified to judge the sincerity of someone who claims to be one, nor do I have the time or inclination to inquire into the validity of their label for themselves.

Poll-takers have the same approach. They ask the person being polled how they identify themselves. Then, they move on without attaching any value to the name.

There's no question about there being sincere Christian preachers and insincere con-men acting as preachers. The problem is in distinguishing between the two. I don't bother with all that, because it doesn't really matter to me. If I see someone selling Christianity, I identify that person as a preacher or whatever name they prefer. I don't make a judgment, because I don't really care about that person's authenticity. It's not a matter of concern for me, since I don't think the religion thing is valid in the first place.

But I do remember the context, and the whole point behind it - illustrating a difference between true followers and the ones attracted to the big media empire operators and the trappings of wealth and power and influence that these con artists all seem hellbent on seeking (pardon the pun!). Along the lines of false prophets - who seek out money and power and fame.

I didn’t make it up, but I sure do like the term. Basically shaking down the naive and unsuspecting and using Christ’s name as a cover.

so it requires an explanation each time.

By the way, I know that it's difficult to tell by my pseudonym - but I'm a he

As it happens, I was on the phone one day at work, and the person on the other end misheard my name (Tim Lynch) and said: "Pendrench??"

When I told this to my coworker, she thought it was hilarious, so that became her nickname for me

Anyway, when I joined DU, I thought it would be a good choice for me to use.

So...there it is.

Wishing you well and peace.

Tim

to use your word.

Last edited Tue Jan 1, 2019, 06:50 PM - Edit history (1)

Obviously I can only speak for myself (and from what I've observed over the years from friends and family who experienced a similar upbringing) but I hope that if my situation is atypical, perhaps that might change.

As I mentioned in my original post, my goal/motivation is not to avoid hell or to "win" heaven - but rather to love god by loving ALL others.

Unfortunately, I also often fail...but I try.

And if I keep trying, then perhaps one day my situation will no longer be atypical

Thank you again for your reply.

Wishing you well and peace...and a VERY happy new year!

Tim

more Buddhist than Christian. If only ALL christians had your attitude.

Peace!

Tim

Can't say I had the same experience as you in my childhood, but I hear the same message as you in the church I attend now.

"You have a need you never knew you had until we told you about it. Don't worry about whether or not we made this original sin nonsense up. Think how white your shirts can be, er, soul can be with our product. Now, new and improved with 25% less circumcision."

It's the most appalling part of the whole thing, this concept that you're flawed for reasons beyond your control and the only way out is to join their club. Maybe. Terms and conditions may apply.

You don't want to use it in your initial pitch, see. You save that one until later, when you've hooked your mark. Then, you can use it to lay the guilt on more thickly, so as to get a larger commitment.

I mean, the kid knows he does wrong things. Society teaches kids that, along with their parents. In the beginning you have to work with the obvious stuff to hook them.

That scene was especially good.

and that's OFF THE TOP. Not your net or bring home. You wouldn't want to cheat Jesus, now would you. He died for you.

of being a stupid ass who made some pretty shitty decisions. “...but ah’m fergivven, So yeh can’t touch me!”

I remember many discussions in catechism class about the difference between salvation by faith alone, versus salvation by faith and good works.

It was deemed more legitimate to combine faith with good works, than to depend merely on faith alone.

Just stuff from 14 years in Catholic school.

Don't forget that part. Isn't that convenient. Almost something I would make up if I were a tyrant.

Bye and bye...

Joe Hill

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Hill