Religion
Related: About this forumDo religions NEED Heaven and Hell?
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Do religions need a carrot and a stick to scare people into doing the right thing? Paradise V the Lake of Fire. Behave in life because after death comes the judgement. Do what we say, comply with our rules otherwise your eternity is going to be something of a bugger. Of course, these days our religious institutions play down the concept of a fiery pit of eternal arse roasting. It seemingly does not play well with those that sit on the pews come Sunday morning. The hell of the 21st century is more often described as an absence of God rather than the presence of the devil, with heaven being directly opposite to the absence of God. It is a much more palatable descriptor than how the bible talks about it.
The bible is clear on heaven and hell, and is specific on exactly what they both look like. Jesus gave some very clear descriptors in one of his parables describing hell as a blazing furnace, a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth: Matthew 13:42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Those who cause offence, those whose deeds are evil will be thrown into the Lake of Fire until the end of time. However, do not despair. Be good and righteous and your eternal life will be spent in the City of Light, built by God: Revelation 7:15-16 Therefore, they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence. Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat down on them, nor any scorching heat. The message could not be clearer. You have a choice. Behave and get to the city of light. Misbehave and suffer eternal damnation. Of course, each religion has a different barometer for what constitutes good behaviour, which might lead to a rather sticky afterlife if you are not careful! Fundamentally for people of faith paradise or hell fire are manifestations of Gods love or Gods justice. That is one big carrot and stick.
If religions took away the stick of the fiery pit of eternal damnation does the carrot of a heavenly after life lose its impact? Would religious people still strive to do the moral thing if not going to hell was not part of their religious package of choice. Surely people should make moral decisions because of wish to do the right thing by our fellow human beings, to a leave a legacy of trying to make the world a better place, for the here and now, without the need of a carrot and stick? People should act morally or ethically because it is the right thing to do, not because your choice of actions could eventually send you to heaven of hell.
Faith is decreasing in the 21st Century, but people are still generally good, they are still generally moral. They need neither a carrot nor a stick to do the right thing. The heaven and hell approach to moral behaviour removes an individuals need for personal responsibility. You should act ethically because it is the right thing to do. not because it gives you a get out of hell free card. If you need a stick to be better, that does not say much for ones character. If your religion needs a stick to keep you in conformity that suggests that the message is not hugely compelling without scaring people into obedience.
Do religions need heaven and hell?
Pretty much.
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Sherman A1
(38,958 posts)Perhaps they do need them in some form or another. I got over the whole Roman Catholic thing, so dont much care.
3Hotdogs
(12,463 posts)getting their sorry asses roasted.
Cartoonist
(7,326 posts)1. Those who cause offence
2. Those whose deeds are evil
I can live with that. So I'm covered. I don't need to believe in God, so I don't have to listen to theists asking me, "what if I'm wrong?"
Funtatlaguy
(10,895 posts)If we all just become forms of light energy, we dont have bodies that need food or liquid.
So, we dont do the same things we did on earth in human bodies.
What do we do each day?
liberal N proud
(60,352 posts)Pendrench
(1,360 posts)Last edited Sat Jan 19, 2019, 11:41 AM - Edit history (1)
I have previously posted this poem/prayer from Rabia Basri (a Muslim saint and Sufi mystic) several times, but I do so again because I feel that it sums up my personal beliefs concerning heaven and hell:
O God! If I worship You for fear of Hell, burn me in Hell
and if I worship You in hope of Paradise, exclude me from Paradise.
But if I worship You for Your Own sake,
grudge me not Your everlasting Beauty.
In other words, if my goal in life is simply to avoid going to hell and/or trying to "win" heaven, then I am only doing so out of self-interest.
I am being self-centered, not other-centered.
Therefore, I believe that if there is a god, then she/he/it wants me to worship him/her/it by taking care of others, especially those who need help: the sick, the dying, the hungry, the scared, the lonely, the imprisoned, those who are suffering and in pain.
I also believe that this includes taking care of the earth, to preserve and protect it for the future generations of plants, animals, and people who will follow me.
Anyway, those are just my thoughts on this - thank you again for posting!
Wishing you well and peace.
Tim
SoFlaDem
(98 posts)I love that you shared that prayer. For me, true spirituality is in living the principles, not plying the dogmas which feed ego and self-interest.
Pendrench
(1,360 posts)I have kept a copy of that prayer in my wallet for many years now - it's one of my favorites.
Wishing you well and peace.
Tim
Igel
(35,390 posts)If you do bad things, you'll be put in jail, deprived of being with your family and, I supposed, your friends for years. You'll lose money.
If you do good things, you get rewarded. You're allowed to find food and shelter, you're considered an upstanding member of your community and get respect from others, promotions at work, positions of authority. And if government's in the business of providing food and shelter or other perks, if you obey the law you'll be in a position of being sheltered and will never hunger or thirst.
Do parties and movements need disfellowshipping and perks to keep their members in line? If you say the wrong thing you're out of the party, stripped of responsibilities. Even if it was a mistake you repented of fairly soon, or it was a reasonable choice in a menu of 50 choices. It was the important one for that moment. Or somebody's viewed as a paragon of the movement for taking a position, even though the person sacrifices babies to Hayek every summer.
Same for schools. Do your work, there's a bribe. You get your diploma. That means you're privileged, compared to those without. Don't do you work, you go to in-school suspension, making you more likely not to get your diploma.
But is that the only way to ensure a reasonably reasonable society?
No. Most people are law-abiding just out of fear, and I doubt most are law-abiding just because they're in it for the awesome rewards that come. But for some, it's fear. Of jail, of having your life ruined, of being kicked out of your party and ostracized by colleagues. For some it's swag. For others it's fidelity, love for the group you're in or some person in the group (aka patriotism, nationalism, ethnocentrism, etc., none of which have to be primarily other-directed; note I'm not into distinguishing the fine structure of "ethnocentrism" versus "ethnic pride" . I guess it's possible to reduce that to "rewarded by approval," but it feels different than "rewarded by money," and we have different words for the two (with 'rewarded by money' being considered derogatory until fairly recently, when $ became the metric by which everybody seems to measure everything).
Kids in school may fall into line, barely, because of threats and punishment. Some may be bribed by the reward. "Do this, get that." Being connected to the school community matters, but makes for a different set of rewards and punishments. Most of the good students do their work and get good grades because either they've learned to like learning overall or they've identified something they want to learn. One kid a few years ago loved cello and went to conservatory, and set his own reward--playing a Tchaikovsky piece flawlessly for his audition. "Don't care if I get in, I rocked." Another liked going through the hoops to his small engine certification. Never "it'll get me a job" but "I really like fixing engines." Fear. Swag. Love.
For most, of course, it's conditioning.
Most Xian groups would say, "Fear is the beginning of wisdom." And the general view to those who do things for physical reward is, "Here, you have your reward, no go away." Otherwise, it's "perfect love casts out all fear." Fear. Swag. Love. (And there's still conditioning for many: "Teach children how they should live, and they will remember it all their life."
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)The Old Testament does not have the word "hell" in it. The word "sheol" in Hebrew is often translated as hell but actually means "pit" i.e. a grave. It could also be a euphemism for an underworld to which both the good and evil go to. Nowhere is there a place of eternal torment described. The idea of heaven and hell only showed up in Judaism and Christianity in the Second Temple Period.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Every nations has laws, and punishment. Prisons are the secular equivalent of hell.
The approval of others is the secular equivalent of heaven.
Pope George Ringo II
(1,896 posts)Rules for beating your slaves, for beating your wives, for killing your wives, for not eating bacon or shellfish...
If it ever happened to produce moral behavior, this has to be taken purely as an accident. Moral behavior really should be the goal in its own right, though. Religion isn't even a means to the end, and it clearly never has been.