2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumBernie talking "Colonialism" in Puerto Rico
Last edited Fri May 20, 2016, 12:15 AM - Edit history (1)
Bernie Sanders, trying to get some votes in Puerto Rico, a commonwealth of America, said this
http://www.thenation.com/article/bernie-sanders-says-us-must-end-colonial-type-relationship-with-puerto-rico/
He also talked about PR independence, even tho PR in the past has rejected it (by a landslide margin).
Accusing America of colonialism in PR, like Fidel Castro did, sounds like a communist. It must stop. PR should be the 51st state, but not secede from America. How would its economy survive alone? Why has PR consistently rejected secession? Bernie ought to learn not everyone buys into what in Russian is called "Internatsionalnyy Dolg"
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)and this is a valid line of talk
ericson00
(2,707 posts)how would their economy survive as an independent nation, especially when their people continue to reject it? How would the people eat, move, live, etc?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)with Detroit, deal with it, Or not, I really do not give a fuck
jillan
(39,451 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)state. They could be a state and have a governor and have two senators and at least one member of the house for full representation. They choose against that and against independence each time.
That's not colonialism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rican_status_referendum,_2012
KingFlorez
(12,689 posts)In addition to that, they have a resident commissioner in Congress that votes in committees. You all need to pick up a political science book, because politics didn't begin with Bernie Sanders. He's not 100% right on everything.
George II
(67,782 posts)....between the US and Puerto Rico.
reddread
(6,896 posts)In the mid-century, the "Cointelpro program" was a project conducted by the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) to surveil, infiltrate, discredit, and disrupt domestic political organizations which it classified as suspect or subversive. These included individuals and organizations involved in the Civil Rights Movement and Black Power movement on the mainland of the United States in the 1960s and 1970s.[73] The "Carpetas program" was a massive collection of information gathered by the island's police on so called "political subversives,". The police documented thousands of extensive carpetas (files) concerning individuals of all social groups and ages. Approximately 75,000 persons were listed as under political police surveillance. Historians and critics found that the massive surveillance apparatus was directed primarily against Puerto Rico's independence movement. As a result, many independence supporters moved to the Popular Democratic Party to support its opposition to statehood.[73]
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)As you know, PR periodically votes on whether they want to be independent, a state, or keep things as they are. They have voted to keep things as they are each time.
That's Democracy. Sadly, Democracy seems to be preferred less and less by Sanders and his supporters these days.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)And how do you suggest Puerto Rico resolve its fiscal crisis and its debts to Wall Street?
I don't mind: Your solution can be simplistic.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Seems to me the question is how PR brings in money in the future and how it will be distributed--most to a small class that spends relatively little there and invests elsewhere or most staying right there multiplying prosperity via good-paying jobs, secondary businesses, etc.
The U.S. investment last century in trying to develop manufacturing and other primary industry in Puerto Rico didn't work, but it could always be tried again when the time was right. Plus, I read once something about someone with an ambition for PR to become another Singapore.
That'd be interesting, all right. Our DIL lived there for some years and would love to return, and it was lovely when we visited, but the idea of living out on a small, unsustainable island, no matter how charming (we'd live in the lush mountains with a distant view of the ocean, they'd be in town ), did not appeal. The idea that conceivably someday we couldn't even afford to spend a week there did not occur.
chascarrillo
(3,897 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)... you can demagogue the vote to mean whatever you want. It was a complicated result and determining the will of the voters hard to determine. And that was from several groups within PR.
It's not a simple issue. But Bernie's demagoguery about it was very simplistic.
keep exporting democracy.
way too much here.
George II
(67,782 posts)BootinUp
(47,221 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)When it comes to any political figure paying attention to Puerto Rico, unusual.
George II
(67,782 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)Fleeced to the tune of $11 Billion, in PDF form: http://www.caribbeannewsnow.com/docs/prepa_report.pdf
anotherproletariat
(1,446 posts)president again. Oh, and try and formulate a plan or two to back up your promises.
eastwestdem
(1,220 posts)KingFlorez
(12,689 posts)Independence has never been popular in Puerto Rico, but Sanders probably doesn't know that, he's just caught up in negative talk about things like colonialism. This sounds incredibly anti-American to me and it's disgusting.
Tell us what you really think KingFlorez.
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)He acts like he is some street activist back in the 60's.
ericson00
(2,707 posts)which flopped miserably.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Mom can I keep it? It is so cute, COMMIES ARE SCARY MOMMY...
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I agree, red baiting no longer hunts, It has not for years, but he keeps using it. Why is that?
ericson00
(2,707 posts)even tho communism is bad and being one is worse.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)by the way that is Senator Joe McCarthy right there. DO you have lists of sympathizers of Moscow in the state department?
Armstead
(47,803 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)YouDig
(2,280 posts)Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)If you need any recommendations of history books, I'd be happy to help.
You get bonus points for the red-baiting. Real subtle.
Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)ericson00
(2,707 posts)Response to ericson00 (Reply #24)
TM99 This message was self-deleted by its author.
cali
(114,904 posts)Loki
(3,825 posts)bourgeois, so elitist, so liberally biased. Poor Bernie, it just get's in his way. Living in the past is so much more interesting, like the 1960's which he seems to never have evolved from.
UtahLib
(3,179 posts)NastyRiffraff
(12,448 posts)not to mention arrogant. Does he even know Puerto Rico's history? Does he care? Probably not..it's just another "cause" for him to latch onto, the hell with the actual people living there and what they want.
chascarrillo
(3,897 posts)Kip Humphrey
(4,753 posts)commonwealth, statehood as in THE 51ST STATE, or independence. HE SAID, it is up the the PR people to decide, not the federal government.
FOR ALL DU:
THE LAST PERSON WHO IS INFORMED ABOUT BERNIE SANDERS IS A HILLARY SUPPORTER.
PLEASE DISREGARD WHAT THEY SAY IF WHAT THEY SAY SERVES HILLARY.
Thank you.
NWCorona
(8,541 posts)ericson00
(2,707 posts)Its forward looking and not straight out of a manifesto or writings of Ilyich.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)perpetual world war.
cali
(114,904 posts)The nerve of those Armenians.
treestar
(82,383 posts)It depends on the grievance, but one would not want to condemn people to suffering forever on a subject, especially when it is no longer happening, and the people it happened to are long dead.
I'm over whatever happened to my ancestors, but in that case it is fully justified. Some may have died in the potato famine, but I'm not wiling to kill anyone today over that. I see what stevenleser means. I recall researching, in the 90s, what they were fighting about in the Balkans, and it seemed unreasonable to me that they were killing each other over things that happened in the 14th century.
So your response is oversimplified. There are cases where it is unreasonable to keep flogging a grievance and working yourself up over it.
neverforget
(9,437 posts)Buns_of_Fire
(17,217 posts)The "Fear", "Guilt", "Shame", "Ignorance", "Experience", and "Party" cards were getting a little threadbare, so it's good to see that they're finally getting shuffled around some, even this late in the game.
neverforget
(9,437 posts)by so-called Democrats. By Republicans, sure it's what they do but not Democrats.
ericson00
(2,707 posts)most Democrats and Republicans were united in beating both the Soviet Union and general international communism, right? Who said these words:
"Communism has never come to power in a country that was not disrupted by war or corruption, or both"
"When we have something we feel strongly about and in this case it is civil liberties and freedom and what this nation was founded upon, that we should do something to implement international law and it is international law now, the right to leave a country freely and return freely that we should put that issue of principle on the table knowing that the Russians are not going to agree to it."
Not Republicans
chascarrillo
(3,897 posts)neverforget
(9,437 posts)Take your Red scare bullshit elsewhere. The commies aren't coming.
treestar
(82,383 posts)It's not like anyone has been called a Republican, corporatist, liar, etc.
Corporate666
(587 posts)Except he has no clue what the F he is talking about on PR.
obamanut2012
(26,188 posts)Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)This stuff is not necessary.
brooklynite
(95,006 posts)ericson00
(2,707 posts)Bernie missed that
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rican_status_referendum,_2012
morningfog
(18,115 posts)The people of PR should get to decide if they want to become a state. Why didn't you quote that part?
brooklynite
(95,006 posts)Or are these just lines for his fan base?
ThePhilosopher04
(1,732 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)Does he realize that Puerto Rico is not a "colony"?
chascarrillo
(3,897 posts)pinebox
(5,761 posts)LexVegas
(6,121 posts)Algernon Moncrieff
(5,798 posts)I am well aware that the GOP doesn't want to allow the issues to be settled because they will not receive immediate benefit from the additions of the voters in these places.
Puerto Rico either needs to be moved toward independence or moved toward statehood. Personally, I'd be in favor of the "State of Puerto Rico and the USVI." DC needs to be given some kind of representative status (Statehood or something short of statehood that gives them elected representation in the House and Senate); be excused from paying federal taxes; or needs to be annexed by Maryland (DC south of the Potomac has already been annexed by Virginia).
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,719 posts)The Repubs opposes DC, PR, and VI statehood because it will be more Democratic Electoral College votes, and six more Democratic senators.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,798 posts)Long term, the GOP could do pretty well in PR. I'm amazed they don't see that.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,719 posts)They seem to want statehood.
Sovereignty would be an unmitigated disaster.