2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumWould anyone like to see a Clinton/Sanders Dialog group on DU?
This wouldn't be about getting anyone to stop campaigning for their candidate, but towards taking the first steps towards creating unity, and about working for a less-toxic form of debate and discussion between the two camps in the time remaining between now and Philadelphia(which is crucial, since neither Democratic candidate can win in the fall without the passionate support of the other candidate's loyalists).
There has to be some better way of communicating with each other in the remaining portion of this campaign.
Just wanted to float the idea and see of there was interest.
redstatebluegirl
(12,265 posts)highprincipleswork
(3,111 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)highprincipleswork
(3,111 posts)As a first step.
Would polls be helpful?
What kind of jury system? Possibly different?
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Another might be on the questions od what positions the other candidate takes that you think your candidate should adopt, and what positive lessons should your candidate's campaign learn from the other campaign.
"no gloating, no baiting, no talking down, no insults" would need to be part of the ground rules.
highprincipleswork
(3,111 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)JSup
(740 posts)About Bernie:
1) I like how he has shown you don't need Wall Street to run a campaign.
2) I like that he has brought some previously unmentionable American problems (that many of us thought about already) into the light and made it okay for us to discuss them openly (OWS started this, but Bernie really got it going).
That was easy; there aren't any 'back-handed compliments in there, are there? I was trying to avoid them.
The Wielding Truth
(11,415 posts)KoKo
(84,711 posts)Last edited Fri May 20, 2016, 08:27 PM - Edit history (1)
You'd have to heavily Moderate It! Because, it would turn out like the MIRT Team.
I always hope for "Discussion" here on DU...but, in all my years..I've seen little of it because it always ends in "Flame Wars" or like the META Experiment that was a Failure so bad that the bitterness from it still lingers.
But, Good Luck to You...and would love to see it...just cautioning from "past experience here."
Edited for META Experiment when DU-3 was instituted and cause total Disaster. I mistakenly typed MIRT for META in the second paragraph.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)scscholar
(2,902 posts)What would be the point?
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)prize in November. It's not over until Obama hands his desk to another Democrat. If you feel your candidate has won, then you only objective should be her next and only actually meaningful win. If that's not motivating your every action, you are no kind of supporter at all.
anigbrowl
(13,889 posts)Apparently you'd prefer that HRC supporters limit themselves to attacking Donald Trump so SBS supporters can concentrate their fire on Hillary.
Baobab
(4,667 posts)a big difference.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Baobab
(4,667 posts)I would like to get a dialogue going about the currently pending trade deals potential chilling effects on future policy space and the need for us here in the US to push for "carve outs" for essential public services and regulatory flexibilities. (As is being done in the EU, it appears)
If we don't do this key - irreplaceable elements of our future policy space may become unchangeable, perhaps even before the election..I think this is something which all Democrats should push for- regardless of which candidate we support,
For example, I suspect that few if any of us would support the waging of a virtual war in our names on public services like public higher education or public health care. Currently only 'a service supplied in the exercise of governmental authority' is protected from mandated privatization but that only means means "any service which is supplied neither on a commercial basis, nor in competition with one or more service suppliers." so here in the US, none of what we normally consider to be public services could escape privatization. the same applies in other countries too. I think this should e changed so that public services of all kinds are protected from piecemeal dismantlement and privatization/monetization.
...is very important to me and something I think most of us can agree on.
I've been reading up on this since OWS and it's some awful and sneaky stuff.
Baobab
(4,667 posts)http://www.pnhp.org/sites/default/files/Nick%20Skala%20GAT%20and%20Health%20Reform.pdf
http://www.policyalternatives.ca/sites/default/files/uploads/publications/National_Office_Pubs/putting_health_first.pdf
Healthcare
Environment
Rehabilitation (criminal, drug and mental/emotional)
DMV
Roads and highways (toll roads should give tolls to State for road improvement/maintenance)
Our national resources: (lots of folks won't agree with me on this one)
Education
Child support collection (happened in Kansas)
Parking meters (poor Chicago)
Utilities (a little late but man it's awful now)
And I also think food produced here should be sold here before the exports jack the price. This is only part of what colonization feels like; local resources depended on for generations are now in demand far away and makes them no longer affordable locally.
Response to Ken Burch (Original post)
carolinayellowdog This message was self-deleted by its author.
xynthee
(477 posts)I just can't imagine coming together at this point anymore. Too much bad blood, too little in common.
tandem5
(2,072 posts)xynthee
(477 posts)I'm not sure if they'll even pretend they're for campaign finance reform, healthcare as a fundamental human right, etc., or against fracking, the private prison industry, the MIC, the death penalty, the payday loan industry, et al. Sorry to be such a downer.
tandem5
(2,072 posts)The military-industrial complex in a country typically attempts to marshal political support for continued or increased military spending by the national government. The term military-industrial complex was first used by U.S. President Dwight D. Eisenhower in his Farewell Address on January 17, 1961.
tandem5
(2,072 posts)Made in China could have been shorthand for global trade, but rest assured I and TLG are against the Military Industrial Complex.
Baobab
(4,667 posts)see my post on carve outs - As far as amending old 90s deals- sure- if everyone agreed it could happen. We would be the biggest obstacle (the US)
MadBadger
(24,089 posts)So looks like you and I have a lot of common ground.
sheshe2
(84,070 posts)We have more than enough Hill bashing sites. Even the safe groups are alert stalked.
Gotta say, Ken, ( my dads name, he passed a year and a half ago) in another time and place it might work. Not here and not now.
I see the posts saying Hill supports have nothing because we don't respond. We don 't respond because we have been alert stalked off this board. I know I am setting myself up for a hide, cause that is a fact here. You asked for an answer and I replied politely. I await the hide. Being polite doesn't matter anymore.
Silly me, I want a Democrat in office. If Bernie is the candidate, I will support him. We will never survive a Trump. We will not survive!
Flighty McFlight
(33 posts)It's going to get shit itself into toxic waste anyway.
Let the process go through, then President-soon-to-be-elected Bernie can proceed to unify the country.
asuhornets
(2,405 posts)msongs
(67,502 posts)too angry. a loner. 25 yrs in congress and has few professional friends to show for it. not a team player. wants his own way all the time
nc4bo
(17,651 posts)NV Whino
(20,886 posts)It might be a pretty quiet group.
JSup
(740 posts)...but my eyes seem to autofilter out posts by people with names I remember as being trolly.
I think such a group, if moderated, could work.
snowy owl
(2,145 posts)Then we'll have either more equality in discussion or less actually. California is key as was New York. We have to have standing. Also, it would have to stick to issues on both sides and trust. As a Sanders supporter, I don't trust Clinton and I don't accept easy answers that she is who she says she is but if her supporters agree on certain points I'd be more inclined to think the talks authentic and trustworthy.
nc4bo
(17,651 posts)Turin_C3PO
(14,151 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)No matter how much I'd love to see a female President, that's where it is.
Response to Ken Burch (Original post)
artislife This message was self-deleted by its author.
Demsrule86
(68,825 posts)Hillary won...there is nothing to discuss and I am sick of hearing about how people are hint hint voting for a different candidate...which must be Trump of course. No thanks. I have had my fill of this nonsense.
timmymoff
(1,947 posts)for a different candidate. I know you said "hinted" but how do you gather this? Just 5 posts where someone has stated not hinted. Bet you can't find them.
MadBadger
(24,089 posts)On both sides
Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)Hillary will revert back to the center right if she is the nominee so I'm not sure if there will be common ground. If Bernie is the nominee there will be many establishment Democrats who won't be comfortable.
AgerolanAmerican
(1,000 posts)It's pretty clear that there's little common ground between the two camps.
It's not like civil discourse hasn't been attempted, either. I tried it over and over and over and over again until it became plain and clear that the other side had no intention of seeking that common ground.
A lot of Clinton supporters even outright refused to answer the simple inquiry as to why they were supporting her, saying things like "we don't owe you an explanation" - as if we were trying to extract one at gunpoint, rather than trying to understand where they were coming from.
Where we did get explanations, they were either fluff ("because she's a woman" - BFD so is 51% of the country), or outright insults to the intelligence ("she is a progressive/liberal" .
There was no quarter given, ever. We faced a posture that was very much one of people conducting a war against us - they treated us as an enemy. For example, I can't think of a single Clinton supporter who conceded that releasing the speech transcripts would be a good way to dispel suspicions. I can't think of a single Clinton supporter who shares our outrage at the way the primary process was rigged. I can't think of a single Clinton supporter who acknowledged that her myriad conflicts of interest were even a slight concern.
For these questions, we were called sexist, racist, right-wing, and many other nasty things. We have been treated with contempt and derision, our intelligence insulted - we could not even extract from them a concession that any of our concerns had any validity at all.
How now to bridge that gap, with the bridge so wantonly burned? They must think they can win without us, or maybe they don't actually care if they win as long as we lose.
FSogol
(45,595 posts)Here's everyone chance to take the "first steps towards creating unity, and about working for a less-toxic form of debate and discussion between the two camps in the time remaining between now and Philadelphia"
Chan790
(20,176 posts)the only thing I want from Clintonites is the brutal death of Hillary's electoral ambitions.
They're not going to put that on the table and I want nothing else from them, save the possibility that they will agree en-mass to leave the Democratic party.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)Meaning 1 Sanders for every Clinton and vice versa. Why not give it a shot?
anigbrowl
(13,889 posts)So I suggest that this is something you might want to work on at your end for a while, Ken.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,798 posts)More unites Sanders and Clinton supporters than divides them.
demwing
(16,916 posts)I'm convinced Trump will be a disaster, and I'm equally convinced that Clinton will be a disaster as well - albeit, a disaster of a different stripe.
Black cats, white cats, red dogs and blue dogs.... isn't it time we go all in and elected some mice?
What's to discuss?
Barack_America
(28,876 posts)liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)VPs don't really do anything unless there is an emergency. Bernie can do more good right where he is than the VP slot. Same goes for Elizabeth Warren, and I don't give a shit about party unity.
barrow-wight
(744 posts)However, to be really fair here, there are like two Hillary supporters in Wichita somewhere who won't vote for Bernie if he's the nominee and hundreds of people on this site determined to be Bernie or Bust. Hillary fans keep getting beaten with the idea that we're the non-unity people but we're not. I have had every intention of voting for Bernie if he became the nominee but he's just not going to be.
I've seen so many religious iconography, comparisons to Jesus, and other deifying descriptors applied to Bernie over the past several months but the reality is, unless Jesus comes back and ordains it, Bernie is not going to get 67% of the remaining states. He's just not.
Now, if Jesus comes back, Satan takes a holiday, and all the Gods of Olympus come down with thunderbolts to grant the ascent of the Bern, I will be the first person in line to support him, but at this point he's just making it that much harder to beat Trump in November. At the very least, he should keep his ire targeted towards Trump so he's not so scorched earth about it.
still_one
(92,526 posts)stipulation that no one wouldn't disparage either candidate, but work with the goal of finding common ground that each side could agree with.
Might not realistically happen until the primaries are over.
I think it is a great idea though
Binkie The Clown
(7,911 posts)the two camps will yell at each other for a couple days and then retreat to their own private echo chambers. No minds will be changed, and the unspeakable disservice that the Dem machine has inflicted on Bernie will not be forgotten or forgiven.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Though I get that that doesn't really fit with the spirit of DU. I still think this cycle has been the biggest self-inflicted clusterfuck other than the Trump nomination I've seen in my political life.
ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)djean111
(14,255 posts)Not between the candidates.
mmonk
(52,589 posts)MyNameGoesHere
(7,638 posts)group for the grief of Sanders supporters. They need to heal.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)Sorry, but that ship has sailed and sunk.
Feathery Scout
(218 posts)I am a total newbie....but anything that unites us against Trump I completely support!
DookDook
(166 posts)What unity will they find? People keep saying that Senator Sanders and Secretary Clinton are alike or that they agree on more than they disagree, but I don't see it.
Free public college for all? Bernie says yes, Hillary says no.
Opposed to money in politics? Bernie says yes, Hillary says no.
Break up the banks? Bernie says yes, Hillary says no.
Carbon Tax? Bernie says yes, Hillary says no.
Wall Street bailout? Bernie's against it, Hillary not so much.
Oppose the death penalty? Bernie says yes, Hillary says no.
Legalize Marijuana? Bernie says yes, Hillary says no.
Revive Glass-Stegall? Bernie says yes, Hillary says no.
Opposed to bombing our way across the Middle East? Bernie says yes, Hillary says no.
Opposed to spying? Bernie says yes, Hillary says no.
Opposed to the TPP? Bernie says yes, Hillary said it was the gold standard, but now she's against it.
Ban fracking? Bernie says yes, Hillary says no.
I would say let the primary process play out.