2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumPardon Hillary!
President Obama, please.
In all seriousness, just say you forgive her for setting up her own email system outside the reach of FOIA.
However, any crime, hanky panky or shenanigans they contain or reveal is another matter. Corruption in office is unforgivable.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)Don't think so. She broke the law with that setup. Going outside the reach of the FOIA is a crime.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Scooter Libby, in an email to Steno Judy Miller of NYT:
"Out West, where you vacation, the aspens will already be turning," Mr. Libby wrote. "They turn in clusters, because their roots connect them."
http://warisacrime.org/node/3677
Scooter got a pardon. Judy got a new job. Bush and Cheney walk free. How's Gov. Siegelman doing these days?
Response to Octafish (Reply #8)
Name removed Message auto-removed
hootinholler
(26,449 posts)He commuted his sentence.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Like Scooter Libby reminded Judy Miller, then an imprisoned NYT reporter, they're all connected underground.
Notice they're white where they show.
George II
(67,782 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Wikipedia disagrees with you.
Note the key words, "for any crimes he might have committed"
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Why the need to go around official review?
What was on those missing emails?
Did she use her position at State to drum up business for companies in which she held an interest?
These are just a few questions that need to be answered before guilt or innocence can be determined.
George II
(67,782 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)Her rationale has changed over the last year. What is she hiding from Obama, let alone the FBI?
George II
(67,782 posts)....why are you folks so bound and determined to come up with dirt/scandals/damage about Hillary Clinton?
What's the point, what you you hope to accomplish by all of this, what is the motivation? Do you think there is ANY possibility that hundreds of delegates will change from Clinton to Sanders in the next two months and give him the nomination?
Octafish
(55,745 posts)UBS is a Swiss bank that is enjoying better days, thanks to the US taxpayer and a number of key US political leaders.
Hillary Helps a Bankand Then It Funnels Millions to the Clintons
The Wall Street Journals eyebrow-raising story of how the presidential candidate and her husband accepted cash from UBS without any regard for the appearance of impropriety that it created.
by CONOR FRIEDERSDORF, The Atlantic, JUL 31, 2015
The Swiss bank UBS is one of the biggest, most powerful financial institutions in the world. As secretary of state, Hillary Clinton intervened to help it out with the IRS. And after that, the Swiss bank paid Bill Clinton $1.5 million for speaking gigs. The Wall Street Journal reported all that and more Thursday in an article that highlights huge conflicts of interest that the Clintons have created in the recent past.
The piece begins by detailing how Clinton helped the global bank.
A few weeks after Hillary Clinton was sworn in as secretary of state in early 2009, she was summoned to Geneva by her Swiss counterpart to discuss an urgent matter. The Internal Revenue Service was suing UBS AG to get the identities of Americans with secret accounts, the newspaper reports. If the case proceeded, Switzerlands largest bank would face an impossible choice: Violate Swiss secrecy laws by handing over the names, or refuse and face criminal charges in U.S. federal court. Within months, Mrs. Clinton announced a tentative legal settlementan unusual intervention by the top U.S. diplomat. UBS ultimately turned over information on 4,450 accounts, a fraction of the 52,000 sought by the IRS.
Then reporters James V. Grimaldi and Rebecca Ballhaus lay out how UBS helped the Clintons. Total donations by UBS to the Clinton Foundation grew from less than $60,000 through 2008 to a cumulative total of about $600,000 by the end of 2014, according to the foundation and the bank, they report. The bank also joined the Clinton Foundation to launch entrepreneurship and inner-city loan programs, through which it lent $32 million. And it paid former president Bill Clinton $1.5 million to participate in a series of question-and-answer sessions with UBS Wealth Management Chief Executive Bob McCann, making UBS his biggest single corporate source of speech income disclosed since he left the White House.
The article adds that there is no evidence of any link between Mrs. Clintons involvement in the case and the banks donations to the Bill, Hillary and Chelsea Clinton Foundation, or its hiring of Mr. Clinton. Maybe its all a mere coincidence, and when UBS agreed to pay Bill Clinton $1.5 million the relevant decision-maker wasnt even aware of the vast sum his wife may have saved the bank or the power that she will potentially wield after the 2016 presidential election.
SNIP...
As McClatchy noted last month in a more broadly focused article that also mentions UBS, Ten of the worlds biggest financial institutionsincluding UBS, Bank of America, JP Morgan Chase, Citigroup and Goldman Sachshave hired Bill Clinton numerous times since 2004 to speak for fees totaling more than $6.4 million. Hillary Clinton also has accepted speaking fees from at least one bank. And along with an 11th bank, the French giant BNP Paribas, the financial goliaths also donated as much as $24.9 million to the Clinton Foundationthe familys global charity set up to tackle causes from the AIDS epidemic in Africa to climate change.
CONTINUED...
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/07/hillary-helps-a-bankand-then-it-pays-bill-15-million-in-speaking-fees/400067/
About UBS Wealth Management
It's Buy Partisan
After his exit from the US Senate, Phil Gramm found a job at Swiss bank UBS as vice chairman. He later brought on former President Bill Clinton. What a coincidence, they are the two key figures in repealing Glass-Steagal. Since the New Deal it was the financial regulation that protected the US taxpayer from the Wall Street casino. Oh well, what's a $16 trillion bailout among friends?
It's a Buy-Partisan Who's Who:
President William J. Clinton
President George W. Bush Heh heh heh.
Robert J. McCann
James Carville
John V. Miller
Paula D. Polito
Anthony Roth
Mike Ryan
John Savercool
SOURCE: http://financialservicesinc.ubs.com/revitalizingamerica/SenatorPhilGramm.html
One of my attorney chums doesn't like to see his name on any committees, event letterhead or political campaign literature. These folks, it seems to me, are past caring.
Some of why DUers and ALL voters should care about Phil Gramm.
The fact the nation's "news media" hasn't really followed this story should also be of great concern as the world is a very small oyster for the wealthy as it is. Imagine what one could do combined with the powers of the Department of State?
To me, Obama has been strangely neutral. Especially considering how he treats whistleblowers who expose government criminality.
George II
(67,782 posts)Why are you folks so bound and determined to come up with dirt/scandals/damage about Hillary Clinton?
What's the point, what you you hope to accomplish by all of this, what is the motivation? Do you think there is ANY possibility that hundreds of delegates will change from Clinton to Sanders in the next two months and give him the nomination?
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Perhaps hiding the emails from prying eyes would make that easier to accomplish.
George II
(67,782 posts)What's the point, what you you hope to accomplish by all of this, what is the motivation? Do you think there is ANY possibility that hundreds of delegates will change from Clinton to Sanders in the next two months and give him the nomination?
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Judgment matters.
Integrity matters.
I don't know about you or anybody else, but they do to me.
tex-wyo-dem
(3,190 posts)Why all the secrecy? What is she trying to hide?
leveymg
(36,418 posts)But, only on condition she agrees never to again run for public office. The rest will take care of itself.
George II
(67,782 posts)...that pardon, Richard Nixon all but admitted that he committed crimes.
Logical
(22,457 posts)bvf
(6,604 posts)If you have information yet to be discovered, perhaps the FBI would appreciate your input.
George II
(67,782 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)Could you please post a link?
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)She's an adult, and responsible for her actions. Needing a rescue from herself proves she's unfit for office.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)A pardon would free her to campaign with the "official" seal of approval from the administration.
What she did or didn't say in the missing emails will no longer matter.
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)and that would be a good reason to throw her support behind Bernie.
I doubt Trump would pardon her.
stillwaiting
(3,795 posts)If he wants to ensure he gets paid a la the Clintons did after Bill's stint in the White House (and HRC's Senatorial/SOS positions), he would probably do as they tell him.
To keep Bernie away from the nomination, I believe at least SOME entrenched corporate interests would tell him to do so if needed. HRC has served TPTB very, very loyally throughout her life. The message MUST be continued to be sent that if you do this, you will be safe from repercussions for just about any actions. Above the law. So, I would think there is a high likelihood that TPTB would find a way to continue to send that message.
I believe HRC believes that would be the likely outcome as well (which would explain why people like her in powerful situations continue to do outrageous things if they thought they could get away with it even if caught).
The status quo is unbelievably corrupt.
dubyadiprecession
(5,740 posts)There is no evidence that her emails were hacked by our enemies abroad.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)What I can't forgive is treason. That, of course, includes aiding the enemy in a time of war, but also corruption in office, as Adlai Stevenson, Jr. put it.
Bob41213
(491 posts)Security on the server was a joke. I've seen no one with cyber security knowledge claim it was "secure." There's a rumor an 8 year old hacked in. Any foreign government who tried got in. The Chinese would seen the big orange neon sign a month after she became SOS. IT WAS HACKED GUARANTEED.
TwilightZone
(25,525 posts)This place just keeps getting funnier.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)My idea was to get past the emails to what they contain. Right now, we don't know about a lot of them.
emulatorloo
(44,276 posts)Is that the analogy?
Octafish
(55,745 posts)No need to break into Trump's fortress of ineptitude. Someone wrote Huma's friends with Ivanka.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)senz
(11,945 posts)He's a nice guy, he'd probably do it.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)http://www.bustle.com/articles/121154-7-fantastic-times-bernie-sanders-stood-up-for-women-their-rights
Response to Octafish (Original post)
Marr This message was self-deleted by its author.
George II
(67,782 posts)Vote2016
(1,198 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)...but you could be right.
What are friends for?
reddread
(6,896 posts)when sense is hard to find.
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)Not that HRC hasn't been provided many opportunities by authoritative men, but really this would be tremendously ironic for this campaign
Octafish
(55,745 posts)A pardon would free the conversation, so to speak.
As things stand, there is a cloud over the candidate.
PeoViejo
(2,178 posts)since he was VP at the time and subject to prosecution. Hillary sees this as the only escape: Pardon those involved, including herself and thus, gets a get out of jail card and the records are sealed forever; well maybe... lol.
This is what happens when crimes in office are not prosecuted.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)That didn't disqualify his Dim Son, in the minds of American voters and those who pay them to think that way.
Reagan was shot in March 1981 and for all intents and purposes was a walking vegetable afterward.
Alexander Cockburn
Lies Of Our Times (p. 12-13)
November 1991
What was surprising to me was Reagans condition. He was exhausted to the point of incoherence throughout much ofthe interview and could not remember the substance of any subject that had been discussed apart from Mitterrands expression of anticommunism. I had not seen Reagan at such close rangesince the assassination attempt nearly four months earlier, and was shocked at his condition.... Reagan simply was unable to recall the contents of the talks in which he had just participated.... The interview concluded at a signal from Deaver,who did not seem to find the presidents condition unusual.
Thus ran Lou Cannons recollections of an interview with the Commander-in-Chief in 1981, as set forth in his book President Reagan: The Role of a Lifetime (New York: Simon & Schuster,1991), published earlier this year. But how did Cannon describe Reagans condition to the readers of the Washington Post when he wrote up his interview? In the July 23, 1981, Washington Post,Cannons story appeared under the headline Reagan Describes Summit Meeting as Worth Its Weight in Gold. Cannons report gives the impression of a lucid chief executive returning home after a fruitful colloquy with other western leaders at the economic summit held in Ottawa in mid-July. Cannon did mention in the tenth paragraph that Reagan appeared tired to the point of near-exhaustion, but this observation was quickly qualified by the opinion of aides that the president had been doing a lot of prep for the conference and was also worried about the Middle East.
Cannon shared his brief session with Reagan aboard Air Force One with Hedrick Smith of the New York Times, who similarly gave his readers the impression of a president in touch with things rather than the incoherent old man they had actually encountered. As did Cannon, Smith wove the few quotable remarks from Reagan into a tapestry of attributed presidential dicta passed on and no doubt confected by Meese, Deaver,and Speakes. It is clear from Cannons account of the conference itself that Reagan was fogged up throughout the actual conference, occasionally interjecting trivial observations or homely jokes into the proceedings and then relapsing into bemused silence. Cannons memoir is one more indication of the cover-up that took place in the wake of Hinckleys assassination bid on March 30, 1981. At the time of the shooting, the press was full of phrases like bouncing back, iron constitution, and other terms indicating that Reagan had emerged from the ordeal in good shape. In fact Reagan very nearly died on the operating table and was a dotard afterwards. He never fully recovered.
Conclusion: Unless a president is actually dead, the WhiteHouse press corps can be relied upon to present him as both sentient and sapient, no matter how decrepit his physical and mental condition.
SOURCE in PDF form:
http://liesofourtimes.org/public_html/1991/Nov1991%20V2%20N10/Nov1991%20V2%20N10.pdf
Mentally isn't physically. So he remained VP and used the opportunity to get appointed a Super Duper Presidential Helper.
George Bush Takes Charge: The Uses of Counter-Terrorism
By Christopher Simpson
Covert Action Quarterly 58
A paper trail of declassified documents from the Reagan‑Bush era yields valuable information on how counter‑terrorism provided a powerful mechanism for solidifying Bush's power base and launching a broad range of national security initiatives.
During the Reagan years, George Bush used "crisis management" and "counter‑terrorism" as vehicles for running key parts of the clandestine side of the US government.
Bush proved especially adept at plausible denial. Some measure of his skill in avoiding responsibility can be taken from the fact that even after the Iran‑Contra affair blew the Reagan administration apart, Bush went on to become the "foreign policy president," while CIA Director William Casey, by then conveniently dead, took most of the blame for a number of covert foreign policy debacles that Bush had set in motion.
The trail of National Security Decision Directives (NSDDS) left by the Reagan administration begins to tell the story. True, much remains classified, and still more was never committed to paper in the first place. Even so, the main picture is clear: As vice president, George Bush was at the center of secret wars, political murders, and America's convoluted oil politics in the Middle East.
SNIP...
Reagan and the NSC also used NSDDs to settle conflicts among security agencies over bureaucratic turf and lines of command. It is through that prism that we see the first glimmers of Vice President Bush's role in clandestine operations during the 1980s.
SNIP...
NSDD 159. MANAGEMENT OF U.S. COVERT OPERATIONS, (TOP SECRET/VEIL‑SENSITIVE), JAN. 18,1985
The Reagan administration's commitment to significantly expand covert operations had been clear since before the 1980 election. How such operations were actually to be managed from day to day, however, was considerably less certain. The management problem became particularly knotty owing to legal requirements to notify congressional intelligence oversight committees of covert operations, on the one hand, and the tacitly accepted presidential mandate to deceive those same committees concerning sensitive operations such as the Contra war in Nicaragua, on the other.
[font color="green"]The solution attempted in NSDD 159 was to establish a small coordinating committee headed by Vice President George Bush through which all information concerning US covert operations was to be funneled. The order also established a category of top secret information known as Veil, to be used exclusively for managing records pertaining to covert operations.
The system was designed to keep circulation of written records to an absolute minimum while at the same time ensuring that the vice president retained the ability to coordinate US covert operations with the administration's overt diplomacy and propaganda.
Only eight copies of NSDD 159 were created. The existence of the vice president's committee was itself highly classified.[/font color] The directive became public as a result of the criminal prosecutions of Oliver North, John Poindexter, and others involved in the Iran‑Contra affair, hence the designation "Exhibit A" running up the left side of the document.
CONTINUED...
CovertAction Quarterly no 58 Fall 1996 pp31-40.
So that's how the rich got richer and the rest of found happiness through austerity. And friends of Poppy got ahead for ever and ever.
Old story for you, OF. Shocker for those who can pull themselves away from their smartphone or the chocolate desert fountain at Golden Corral.
PeoViejo
(2,178 posts)Having had business dealings with the Family. They were definitely in on the retaliation. I could always tell when someone had been briefed. Sometimes one has to do something totally outrageous to find out who their real friends are.
They are definitely members of the 'Club.'
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)Best to go to original sources for the important stuff.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)See the timeline on page 5 at
https://oig.state.gov/system/files/esp-16-03.pdf
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)"Secretary Clinton used mobile devices to conduct official business using the personal email
account on her private server extensively, as illustrated by the 55,000 pages of material making
up the approximately 30,000 emails she provided to the Department in December 2014.
Throughout Secretary Clintons tenure, the FAM stated that normal day-to-day operations
[145 12 FAM 625.2-1 (April 12, 1996); 5 FAM 751.2 (February 27, 2002).
146 5 FAM 871 (December 30, 2002).]
should be conducted on an authorized AIS,147 yet OIG found no evidence that the Secretary
requested or obtained guidance or approval to conduct official business via a personal email
account on her private server. According to the current CIO and Assistant Secretary for
Diplomatic Security, Secretary Clinton had an obligation to discuss using her personal email
account to conduct official business with their offices, who in turn would have attempted to
provide her with approved and secured means that met her business needs. However, according
to these officials, DS and IRM did notand would notapprove her exclusive reliance on a
personal email account to conduct Department business, because of the restrictions in the FAM
and the security risks in doing so. "
Foreign Affairs Manual (FAM) is not like the owner's manual for your refrigerator. It is the RULEBOOK.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)From a number of sources that it was not prohibitive.
Bob41213
(491 posts)She and her people have been spouting lies for a long time on this.
bvf
(6,604 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)bvf
(6,604 posts)But you knew that, even though you may not be familiar with the term.
Link. Now.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Can't?
OK, then. It figures.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)bvf
(6,604 posts)The more you embrace her, the more likely you'll wind up with another, named President Trump.
Either way, we'll all be dealing with plenty more war dead, but you seem to be OK with that.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)bvf
(6,604 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)bvf
(6,604 posts)the very real prospect of war dead is beyond reason.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Sanders people accusing any Clinton supporter of simply loving killing babies and women. What is that? Shame on you!
bvf
(6,604 posts)Take your straw man with you.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)bvf
(6,604 posts)If you don't know what that means, it lends even more weight to my advice.
Be sure to give that straw man of yours a big kiss goodnight, now.
Pleasant dreams.
gordianot
(15,261 posts)She never be granted access to confidential and secret information ever again.
bobthedrummer
(26,083 posts)Bill Clinton pardon controversy (Wikipedia)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton_pardon_controversy
No one is above the law, even the one percenters that bought and corrupted the whole shebang, Sir!
K&R
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,719 posts)1. When the voting is over the primary is over on DU.
This has gone on long enough. Once the voting is done I have no interest in pretending everyone doesn't already know the outcome.
My opinion is that Donald Trump represents an unprecedented threat to this country, and I have no interest in providing a platform for people to act like a Trump presidency isn't such a big deal. I have permitted it during primary season because many people seem determined to pretend we live in a fantasyland where Republicans don't exist -- but once the primary is over reality sets in and we can no longer afford to ignore our Republican opponent.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/125910453
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Do you think any of them are mentioned in the missing emails?
Help track them down:
https://sunlightfoundation.com/blog/2016/02/25/help-us-track-which-democratic-superdelegates-are-lobbyists/
bvf
(6,604 posts)until the convention.
He's fudging there.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)He's never told me what to write or not write.
I gotta admit, I've been surprised at the level of animosity from certain quarters. DUers I'd long considered friends have done all they could to get me angry, writing I am:
Mysoginistic
Racist
Homophobic
Conservative Stooge
Illiterate
Unscientific
Conspiracy Theorist
I imagine they want to see me write something "unforgivable" in return.
I save them the trouble by sticking to the facts. Perhaps that bothers them more than anything.
frylock
(34,825 posts)Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)There should be one law, not two. There are people doing time for less than she did. I don't agree that they should be either, but pardoning her doesn't set them free.
StevieM
(10,500 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)...you might see the other side.
The great DUer leveymg explains:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512080217#post18
His DU Journal is TOPS:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/~leveymg
pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)In the USA, no one is above the law. In reality in the USA, there is one set of rules for those with lots of money and another for those without money. A pardon would somehow maintain the fiction, like Congress and Bill Clinton's administration going along with the Supreme Court's 5-4 decision in 2000.
A pre-emptive pardon would be in regards to using an email server outside official channels. That way, we can focus on the rest of the campaign without that distraction.
Were criminality revealed in the emails themselves or in their distribution -- some of which are reported to include classified information -- that is another matter.
Either way, it'd be good politics to get things resolved ahead of the convention. Of course, the said part is Democracy continues to lose ground.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)June 16 is coming.
Sid
Octafish
(55,745 posts)As you claim to be Canadian, you won't vote for anybody in any US primary or general election, including Hillary.
So, why do look forward to shutting down discussion?
Is it a hobby of yours? Are you paid to do so?
Either way, it is undemocratic.
emulatorloo
(44,276 posts)until after the 2016 Election. In the meantime congress has forbidden we go to war with Canada, and Huma has been selling arms to Iran in order to wage a secret war there. The parellels are endless.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)If the president does pardon the secretary for running an off-the-books email system contrary to department regulations and the spirit, if not the letter of FOIA, it would open a big can of worms.
If he doesn't pardon the secretary, it also would open a big can of worms.
Either way, it's good to be prepared.
emulatorloo
(44,276 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)OP from today (thanks, cali!) http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512100921