2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumSeeing unabashed patriotism and love of country at the Democratic Convention...
made my heart sing..
Because I am a Democratic Liberal.. I never let anyone steal the name from me..
Being a Liberal is the most Patriotic thing...Caring about our fellow citizens and trying to become better people every year.. that is the heart of Liberalism..
I loved it.. I loved the flags..
We let the right take our emblems of the country that represents all of us, and try and use it as their own..
And it has always always bothered me, that we did not push back.. because we are the Patriots.
So..
Just call me a Happy Camper..
Cha
(298,139 posts)Democratic President. We Want More, Please!
Hillary Clinton
✔ ?@HillaryClinton
Let's go win this, together.
6:00 PM - 28 Jul 2016
13,623 13,623 Retweets 41,752 41,752 likes
https://theobamadiary.com/2016/07/28/the-president-speaks-3/
USA!! USA!!
Peacetrain
(22,881 posts)I am so proud of our party.. and out representatives.. keeping us going forward.. President Obama said it best.. He brought us as far as he could from the depths.. and now it is Hillarys turn to keep pulling us forward and take us as far as she can.. But it is WE.. all together that makes the difference.. we are pull in tandem.. and not alone.. very very proud today
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Cha
(298,139 posts)USA!! USA!!
And only a party of idiots uses a slogan of Make America Great Again'. Because that is just another way of saying America Sucks.
stone space
(6,498 posts)Peacetrain
(22,881 posts)It is long past time for us to stand proud.. We are the heart of this country..
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)Does it bother you when sports fans chant "Lets go team name!" also?
BumRushDaShow
(130,146 posts)I think it is because for the past couple decades, the media has highlighted the GOP's most rabid supporters over-using the "USA!" chant... doing so during speeches that insulted everything that liberals believed in, all while brandishing guns purportedly needed for protection to keep the "gum'ment from taking 'way their rights".
adigal
(7,581 posts)I'm afraid we are becoming them - mindless chants, jingos, shutting down any dissent. (And I mean in discussion, not at the convention.)
This has all been eye opening.
BumRushDaShow
(130,146 posts)BUT what I think this is telling us is that THEY are defining what "patriotism" is and not us, and they have been doing so for far too long. And although we tend to go with the flow and go on with life without the insecurity of "need for nation identity" (because we accept diversity), then that makes a push for "nationalism" somewhat difficult to justify.
Yet the "Unum" part of "E Pluribus Unum" does point to the "one" and an occasional desire or need for nationalism in some cases - but only because we have become a cultural amalgam.
WE (as liberals) need to define a "patriot" in our own terms and it does not necessarily have to manifest into a carbon copy of the fascist-like behavior of the right.
Maru Kitteh
(28,350 posts)were still trying to fight out the primary. The ones on OUR convention floor who were pushing their spoiled-rotten, entitled little faces onto every camera they could find to say they were voting for Jill Stein. Fuck them. If "USA USA" drowned them out, then GREAT!
RonniePudding
(889 posts)But facts can't be allowed to get in the way of temper tantrums and debbie downer moments.
Maru Kitteh
(28,350 posts)It's a reflex, like breathing, to some.
BumRushDaShow
(130,146 posts)That Putin/Trump/Pence sig graphic is a riot!
adigal
(7,581 posts)Y'all are doing so well!!
RonniePudding
(889 posts)BT35
(5 posts)Unfortunately, the Bernie or Bust folks disrupted the convention speeches which many people at the convention and at home wanted to see. The USA chant was quite effective in diffusing these disruptions.
Mellomugwump
(93 posts)That they were organized enough to drown out the people that that tried to portray our party as one full of black and white thinkers willing to throw every thing down the drain because we didn't get everything we wanted.
Most of them obviously weren't old enough to know what it felt like when George W. Got elected the second time. The first time was bad, but I still remember the sense of dismay, disbelief and despair when he was elected the second time like it was yesterday. As I said in my first post under this username (it's been awhile so I couldn't remember my old one), I'd almost wish that experience on them if there wasn't so much at stake.
And as I also said, they're also probably too young to realize that the reason Hillary is so vilified is that she tried to get universal healthcare passed 25 years ago and ended up being vilified by the right wing as a result, and now she's being vilified by some on the left as well. Bernie wasn't the first to fight for universal healthcare. She was!
Hekate
(91,055 posts)ailsagirl
(22,912 posts)And thank you for your thoughtful analysis
FSogol
(45,600 posts)No need to criticize our party for caring about our country.
Grey Lemercier
(1,429 posts)Are you really really that jaded?
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)drown out those that were looking to disrupt our history making moment last night. I loved it. I love my country and will never allow the cons to take that away from me.
TwilightZone
(25,525 posts)lol
bekkilyn
(454 posts)About time we started taking back the country from extremists and therefore uphold the foundations of our democracy and what makes this country great. This country is not about them, but about ALL of us. We have cause to celebrate.
redstatebluegirl
(12,265 posts)Because of last night, especially Mr. and Mrs. Kahn, it felt different. I was filled with pride in my country and the troops who defend it with their lives.
Proud Democrat, Proud American!
Peacetrain
(22,881 posts)Proud of who we are and what we stand for..
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)American and proud that I was on the right side of national progress and wellbeing. But for most of my adult life living in conservative areas, to fly the flag would have been to appear to endorse nationalism, xenophobia, racism, knuckle-dragging resistance to change, authoritarianism, bad leaders, etc. Because in California that's what it almost always represented.
Now, well post Cold War, when the hard-core social cons have abandoned their uber-patriotic pose to focus on the fear and hatred they actually feel toward most Americans, we've finally joined decent cons in flying one. Sadly, it has to be mostly for ourselves since our home is out of sight behind woods on a hill in Georgia, but there it is on our porch.
redstatebluegirl
(12,265 posts)completing 2 tours and then over 30 years in the military. I fly the flag in honor of him and other brave Americans who serve. I don't have to agree with the crazy elected officials who send them into harms way for no good reason, but I will always support the people who serve our country, here and overseas.
I guess you could say I can be proud of our country and angry with it's leadership at the same time. That is why I fly my flag every day, in hopes that those who serve will not be sent to die on my behalf for something that is not worth the price paid. Mrs. and Mrs. Kahn are paying a very heavy price and their wonderful son paid the ultimate price.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)for those who fight and those who have refused. Then and now I am conflicted about military service. During Vietnam I had friends who went and friends who hid and protested. I am appalled by the technical ability we now have to transform recruits into killers. The days when a very large percentage of bullets were fired over the heads of the enemy are long gone. Mere privates in this era call in air strikes on villages and then get to go in to find out if any of the people they were chasing are among the dead and injured.
That said, I would never oppose those usually naive and foolish young people who sign up and haven't voted for a tax cut in 40 years for various reasons but always among them because we have never been adequately cared for our soldiers. And, as I sad, I fly the flag for them too.
think
(11,641 posts)it's hard for me to get too excited about it.
Also knowing the dark underside of parts of American foreign policy makes it less palatable as well.
Yemen is a prime example...
Peacetrain
(22,881 posts)You keep your core beliefs and you do not let others try and make you less than.. so USA.. We are the USA.. I am okay with it.. WE ARE THE USA.. not people who try and deny others their rights.. WE ARE!!
BumRushDaShow
(130,146 posts)redefine what "patriotism" is, wrenching it back from the ugly and exclusive definitions that have permeated the airwaves since Raygun. It should not be just faux flag waving, gun-brandishing, fire-breathing rhetoric, and ridiculous Gadsen exhortations -
But true American values that embrace what this country actually represents - community spirit, inclusiveness (acceptance of individual choice, cultural differences, and a variety of abilities), opportunity for all, adequate checks and balances, and fairness.
Peacetrain
(22,881 posts)RIGHT HERE!!! We are the Patriots..Well spoken.. It is long long past time that we stopped letting the dividers.. divide us.. And what we stand for as Liberals is America.. our constant moving forward to embrace our citizenry.. and we should never ever let anyone try and push us to the back of the bus.. So wave those flags..because this is our country..
adigal
(7,581 posts)an independent country.
Thomas Jefferson chanting "England, England," Or Franklin? Or Washington? Likely???
BumRushDaShow
(130,146 posts)is nationalistic. The problem here in the U.S. though, is the impression of the chanter as to "who" is an "American".
One side wants it exclusive and fights for the complete homogenization of the U.S. The other side embraces the diversity and the amalgam that is defined by "E Pluribus Unum".
lillypaddle
(9,581 posts)tanyev
(42,693 posts)I've never understood the singing of the National Anthem and other assorted patriotic displays at sporting events. Why, exactly, is this (Super Bowl, college basketball game, high school football game, Little League baseball game...) a patriotic event? I don't get it.
BumRushDaShow
(130,146 posts)It's a world-wide cultural practice that appears to have evolved to reinforce national identity during competition events. Seems most other countries do the same.
tanyev
(42,693 posts)where countries are actually competing against each other. It just seems odd to me at an event where one high school team is competing against another high school from a nearby town.
BumRushDaShow
(130,146 posts)each of them with its own flag and government (as part of us being a republic), plus the fact that we are not homogeneous as an ethnicity, you are seeing the effect of "E Pluribus" (out of many) with the establishment of "identity by locale" in this vast nation. And thus the natural tendency towards rivalries and "pride" based on location.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)I'm no globetrotting roadwarrior but I've been in quite a few countries including living in a couple for protracted periods and never seen analogous flag/anthem ubiquity in things like intranational sports games and local civic events. Now I haven't a clue about 90% of the 200 or so nation states out there but the 10% I do know is pretty consistent in being much less jingoistic at such events.
BumRushDaShow
(130,146 posts)only recently adopted and perfected here in the U.S. And that sport routinely has different nations battling each other in age-old rivalries... and they most certainly honor each country by displaying the flag and playing the anthem. Most of the world is very "nationalistic" (whether by force or by evolution).
You'll see that next month in Rio at the Summer Olympics.
What is different about us however, is our (U.S.) obsession with our flag - i.e., the intricate protocol that has evolved around its handling, its display, what should happen with it when it has become ragged.. plus the on-again, off-again debates about burning it.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)Countries competing with each other is different from two HS teams a few miles apart in the same state singing the national anthem. No country I've been in overuses their national symbols in entirely domestic affairs.
BumRushDaShow
(130,146 posts)that for the most part, the countries across the rest of the world tend to be homogeneous in ethnicity. I.e., EXCEPT the U.S.
When the vast majority of your nation is one or two ethnicities, the "nationalism" becomes an oxymoron except on the international stage. But when immigration by "others" begins to increase in those countries, the "nationalism" ratchets up big time. You see it happening right now with the Syrian refugees in Europe.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)Why would heterogeneity increase jingoism? Countries like Afghanistan or Singapore have more concrete and immiscible ethnic diversity without seeing Singaporean flags and anthem singing at every soccer game between local clubs. What diversity is there in two northern Minnesota hockey or Southern Illinois football teams even if it did? A backlash against immigration isn't at all the same thing. Grousing about people not following cultural norms is hardly the same as beating up majority white and native-born people who don't stand up at a baseball game when the PA blares a country song with no official status just because it mentions "America" in it.
BumRushDaShow
(130,146 posts)And in the case of what you wrote, no other nation in the world, including the ones you cite, has anywhere near the sheer variety ethnicities of the U.S.
However the "unified cultural" evolution of this very young nation, has formalized practices early on in its life, that appear to have been associated with being "the new kid on the block". And with the push for the national "brand" (to "show off" to the rest of the world), this practice trickled down to the local levels... again, because of how our government hierarchies were established.
BUT the key thing to note is this - With the subdivisions of locales, came the creation of formal "symbols" (state/county/municipal) designed to to define "identity". So you see this with the designations of "national/state/local" songs, flags, anthems, flowers, animals, insects, license plates, etc. And when you have your local high schools naming "teams", and then manufacturing a whole imagery (including logos, songs, mascots, etc), you have created "rivalry" because the 2 competitors have defined themselves differently. It's human nature to compete (primordial survival instinct).
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)And trust me having been there even the most jaundiced view of American race relations does not match the near-apartheid levels of differentiation in Singapore. Numbers don't tell the whole story. Come to think of it I've never been there but I can't say I have heard of a Capetown/Pretoria soccer game having a national anthem ceremony when they had real apartheid either - in a country with many official languages at that.
You are answering why HS teams have rivalries, something I never questioned, not why they see a need to bring in their completely shared nationality into it, which I did. There's still no reason to go from racial diversity to ubiquitous overt displays nationalism in purely internal events. I can't connect those dots. And remember the subthread started with you claiming other countries do the same. That I doubt.
BumRushDaShow
(130,146 posts)as a country. There really is no other like this. You are still not getting it. And my reference to "other countries" doing it was regarding displays of nationalism at "sporting events" which was the topic (my example was soccer because that is an "international sport" . The Olympics was also acknowledged as another instance.
I think you skipped over the part that I wrote about this country being "the new kid on the block". When you have other countries/territories/regions that have an established, generally "unified identity" over a period of many hundreds, if not thousands of years, then there is no need to "brag" or "tell the world" about their "identity" or keep trying to reinforce it. Whereas the "United States of America", as a identifiable "country", has only been around in its current form for about 239 years.
And because this country is made up almost solely (outside of the indigenous tribes) of folks from many other countries, there is a continual need to establish and reinforce the idea of "loyalty" to the U.S., and not their home countries. And the way that was chosen to do this was with the prolific use of "symbols" (flag, anthem, etc). Interestingly, in the aftermath of WWI, what was once a "youth pledge", became a means to establish loyalty through identity via the "Pledge of Allegiance". And this use of "symbols" propagated all the way down to all levels and sizes of locale.
If you look at the negative side of that - you'll see the right wing trash what they call "hyphenated Americans" because they want a place where all previous identities are dissolved away (hypocritically except their own Eurocentric versions of "identity" , and not the "emulsion" that we really are - many many separate little identities sort of stirred up in the container. Some have dubbed the U.S. the "salad bowl".
THIS SHOULD BE THE MONEY SHOT -
Basically what you are seeing is a very distinct cultural "brainwashing" that was specifically put in place to encourage "loyalty" to this nation and not to those places that people immigrated from, or were dragged kicking and screaming here in chains from, or who were already here but signed treaties to remain and be recognized under specific terms (either by force or free will). So you encourage the reinforcement of "national identity" down to the lowest level of event - it's the easiest way to get to large groups of people at once. It is/was done in the schools as well and has become a uniquely identifiable "American" cultural practice.
You may critique the "why" of the "cultural practice" but you can't dismiss that is IS a "cultural practice".
And as a note - what you may be seeing in places like Singapore or South Africa (outside of the Dutch/Boers and some other Europeans who immigrated there), are ancient (usually family-based) clans that evolved variations of languages over a long period of time, and continued to evolve as they migrated and intermingled with others in the same general area. That is different from someone stepping off a plane from Australia or someone driving across the border from Canada or arriving in Florida by boat from Haiti, and then all 3 going through a process to become "U.S. citizens". If you notice, becoming a citizen in many other countries is near impossible where here (so far, much to the consternation of the RW), you can become a citizen if you are born on "U.S. soil" (in the continental U.S. or its Pacific/Arctic states, or in most of its territories, embassies, bases, etc).
Grey Lemercier
(1,429 posts)BumRushDaShow
(130,146 posts)is that Europe has been in an almost perpetual state of war since, and it seems Brexit is about to rattle the cage again.
Grey Lemercier
(1,429 posts)We (as in the UK, I live in London) stupidly voted Leave, but many of those who voted for it did so because of the loss of sovereignty to Brussels and all its impacts.
BumRushDaShow
(130,146 posts)And what you describe is why the Republicans here hate the United Nations (as weak as it is), because they fear that it would bring the same result - a "loss of U.S. sovereignty", and whenever they have been in office, they have voted to refuse to pay the U.S.'s portion of financial contribution to the U.N.
Grey Lemercier
(1,429 posts)pushing constantly. The EU bears a share of the blame in the Brexit nightmare. It was not just Little Englanders kickin off. What a nightmare we here are dealing with. I still cannot believe Leave actually won.
treestar
(82,383 posts)We should not let right wing warmongers reserve "patriotism" to themselves. I recall the post 911 era and the way they used the flag and other symbols to mean them, not all of us.
Peacetrain
(22,881 posts)Hekate
(91,055 posts)OUR people, Hillary, Bill, Barack, Michelle, Joe -- made me full of love not just for them but for my country. That's my patriotism.
And for those too jaded, cynical, hateful, or ignorant to get that for one brief shining moment and to try to drown those people out, let me join the flagwaving chant.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)jalan48
(13,921 posts)Peacetrain
(22,881 posts)It is patriotic to want the best for everyone.. to work so that all are valued equally.. so that all have a chance.. no body could ever get me to deny being a liberal.. or ever get me to deny that being a liberal is the most patriotic stance a person can take.. I do not move to the back of the bus for anyone..
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Throd
(7,208 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)I don't hate my country.
Throd
(7,208 posts)American flags and praise for the USA and its ideals are appropriate.
Maru Kitteh
(28,350 posts)But alas, our convention is only for the President of the United States. I guess we'll just have to be satisfied with President Hillary Rodham Clinton, USA.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Since it leaves out the "...do good" part.
Maru Kitteh
(28,350 posts)[font size = 5]Doing good does not require doing perfect.
PasadenaTrudy
(3,998 posts)drm604
(16,230 posts)What the Republicans call "patriotism" I would call "jingoism". It's very different from what was being expressed at the DNC.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)See Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Syria, Honduras, for recent examples.
auntpurl
(4,311 posts)I'm sorry you can't experience the joy I'm feeling today. I am walking on air!
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)auntpurl
(4,311 posts)I am unabashedly proud to be American, and I walk through life living in another country as a proud American who also understands the flaws of the US. The convention was a celebration of diversity, of the wonderful contributions that ALL people have made to the fabric of American society. I am very much IN FAVOR of that. Cynicism is for people who aren't brave enough to be hopeful.
Maru Kitteh
(28,350 posts)Oh that's perfect, auntpurl!
auntpurl
(4,311 posts)I used to be quite cynical - I thought it was cool when I was in my 20s, and then it just kind of set in. A lot of things changed in my life and I found it REALLY hard to let go of the cynicism, because being hopeful requires you to be vulnerable, to be open to the possibility of heartache. I was much more comfortable viewing the world from behind the armor of my cynicism.
But my experience has been that when I allow myself to feel hope and optimism, sure sometimes I AM disappointed, but all the days in between are richer and I feel happier.
Victor_c3
(3,557 posts)I also hate how, when people find out I'm a vet, they assume I lean right in my politics.
You can be both liberal and a patriot. We need to take back patriotism as a party and proudly waive the flag. Our country has the potential to be truly great.
angrychair
(8,760 posts)There is a fine line and big difference between feeling good about your country and jingoism and fascism.
The phrase "your with us or against us" chills me to the bone to this day.
If our only way to attract voters is to wrap ourselves in the flag and spin people up into patriotic fervors then our country is already lost.
auntpurl
(4,311 posts)In fact it was the exact opposite from "You're with us or against us". It was an absolute celebration of diversity, of the contributions of ALL people to the fabric of America.
Bill USA
(6,436 posts)nini
(16,672 posts)They survived the Depression, WWII (My dad and uncles fought). helped fight for unions etc. etc..
Hell yes they were patriotic. They didn't fight for this country because they hated it - they wanted to make it better.
To this day.. my 92 year old mother struggles to stand when the flag goes by at the annual Labor Day parade. She saw many dark times in this country and has the right to be proud of what that flag means to her. Let me add she yells at everyone around her to stand too - don't mess with my mom LOL
Peacetrain
(22,881 posts)My Dad went in on Omaha Beach.. they were (mom is still with us) proud blue collar Democrats.. and she still is.. and they were flag wavers.. and love of country is huge.. because you are not going to work your butt off to make a country you hate better..
Liberalism is the most patriotic stance to take
We are lucky to have been raised the way we were.