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TomCADem

(17,390 posts)
Fri Jan 17, 2020, 12:04 AM Jan 2020

Miami Herald: Democratic hopeful Bernie Sanders is worse than Trump on U.S. trade with Mexico

Trump has built his Presidency around scapegoating Mexican immigrants and trade, yet Bernie wants to double down on Trump's isolationsionism. Also, like Trump, Bernie has historically been very critical of NATO.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/news-columns-blogs/andres-oppenheimer/article239315183.html

When it comes to U.S.-Mexico trade ties, Democrat Sen. Bernie Sanders, the leftist populist presidential candidate, is more misguided and dishonest than President Trump. And that’s saying a lot.

During Tuesday’s Democratic presidential primary debate, Sanders — a front-runner in the polls for the Feb. 3 Iowa caucuses — lashed out against the newly negotiated U.S.-Mexico-Canada North American free-trade agreement, USMCA. The trade deal could be ratified by the U.S. Senate this week.

“This deal will result in the continuation of the loss of hundreds of thousands of good-paying jobs as a result of outsourcing,” Sanders said. He added that, “We have forced American workers to compete against people in Mexico, in China, elsewhere, who earn starvation wages, a dollar or two dollars an hour.”

Sanders’ claims about USMCA, the Trump-negotiated updated version of the 1994 North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) are wrong. His’ assertion that large numbers of U.S. jobs would be lost are as misguided as were Trump’s earlier complaints about NAFTA, and as misleading as Trump’s absurd claims that most undocumented immigrants from Mexico are criminals and rapists.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
29 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Miami Herald: Democratic hopeful Bernie Sanders is worse than Trump on U.S. trade with Mexico (Original Post) TomCADem Jan 2020 OP
that will bring out the bro's..... getagrip_already Jan 2020 #1
If you post anything critical of Biden, you get blocked here TheRealNorth Jan 2020 #3
... David__77 Jan 2020 #4
+++ vsrazdem Jan 2020 #7
Not really, Bernie has been up front and center on all his beliefs, so its no suprise to anyone. vsrazdem Jan 2020 #8
K&R betsuni Jan 2020 #2
I think Sanders and Obrador would have cordial relations. David__77 Jan 2020 #5
Good point. sandensea Jan 2020 #6
KR! Cha Jan 2020 #9
Watch Bernie Sanders Agree with Lou Dobbs' "Illegal Aliens" Rant - February 06, 2016 Scurrilous Jan 2020 #10
Sounds Like Something Jeff Sessions Woulds Say... TomCADem Jan 2020 #23
Wow. Scurrilous Jan 2020 #24
Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2020 #11
While I have no use for Senator Sanders, regarding him as our worst candidate... NNadir Jan 2020 #12
Agreed. No Democrat is worse than Trump. Bernie would be okay wiley Jan 2020 #13
How About Trade Protectionism? Bernie Has Said He Would Go Farther... TomCADem Jan 2020 #18
I don't believe that Senator Sanders would be putting small children in cages isolating them from... NNadir Jan 2020 #19
But Bernie Has Said That He Opposes The New Trade Agreement with Mexico... TomCADem Jan 2020 #20
Well, OK. If you detest the guy as much as I do - it seems you might - a good start... NNadir Jan 2020 #22
He also completely misrepresented what he said were job losses from NAFTA. still_one Jan 2020 #28
Introducing, Argentines For Trump corbettkroehler Jan 2020 #14
Sanders' populism of course includes nationalism, Hortensis Jan 2020 #15
+1000. ehrnst Jan 2020 #16
And there you have it folks!! nt NYMinute Jan 2020 #17
Bernie needs to hire a cadre of competent advisors. He's due to have oasis Jan 2020 #21
Wait! Wawannabe Jan 2020 #25
He has questions to answer from his recent past, not only on trade, but also NATO and immigration still_one Jan 2020 #26
Definitely true, and same for Warren. Both consider poor Mexican workers scabs. We ought to be Hoyt Jan 2020 #27
K&R stonecutter357 Jan 2020 #29
 

getagrip_already

(14,891 posts)
1. that will bring out the bro's.....
Fri Jan 17, 2020, 12:10 AM
Jan 2020

Oh nose, not criticism! this won't end well.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

TheRealNorth

(9,500 posts)
3. If you post anything critical of Biden, you get blocked here
Fri Jan 17, 2020, 12:22 AM
Jan 2020

The Biden bros are 10× worse here.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

David__77

(23,558 posts)
4. ...
Fri Jan 17, 2020, 12:33 AM
Jan 2020

Different sites, different rules.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

vsrazdem

(2,177 posts)
8. Not really, Bernie has been up front and center on all his beliefs, so its no suprise to anyone.
Fri Jan 17, 2020, 12:56 AM
Jan 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

David__77

(23,558 posts)
5. I think Sanders and Obrador would have cordial relations.
Fri Jan 17, 2020, 12:34 AM
Jan 2020

...

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

sandensea

(21,688 posts)
6. Good point.
Fri Jan 17, 2020, 12:40 AM
Jan 2020

As opposed to Cheeto, whose Latin America policy of late is basically limited to ingratiating himself to Brazil's Bolsonazi.

Drumpf loves the idea of political prisoners, corrupt privatizations, and deforestation.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Scurrilous

(38,687 posts)
10. Watch Bernie Sanders Agree with Lou Dobbs' "Illegal Aliens" Rant - February 06, 2016
Fri Jan 17, 2020, 02:08 AM
Jan 2020

<snip>

"In 2007, Sen. Bernie Sanders was working overtime to kill Ted Kennedy’s immigration reform bill. As part of his effort, he appeared on then-CNN host Lou Dobbs’ program for an interview.

Appearing above a graphic reading “FIGHTING AMNESTY,” Sen. Sanders tells Dobbs that pro-reform Senators are “selling out American workers. In fact, they are selling out our entire country.”

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/2/6/1480425/-Watch-Bernie-Sanders-Agree-with-Lou-Dobbs-Illegal-Aliens-Rant

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

TomCADem

(17,390 posts)
23. Sounds Like Something Jeff Sessions Woulds Say...
Thu Jan 23, 2020, 02:57 AM
Jan 2020

...because he did say the same thing.

https://www.denverpost.com/2017/09/08/dont-believe-what-jeff-sessions-said-about-jobs-and-immigrants/

Don’t believe what Jeff Sessions (and Bernie Sanders) said about jobs and immigrants

While announcing President Donald Trump’s decision to end the Deferred Action for Child Arrivals program, which protects undocumented immigrants from deportation if they arrived as children, Attorney General Jeff Sessions made a startling and blatantly incorrect claim:

“[The DACA program] denied jobs to hundreds of thousands of Americans by allowing those same jobs to go to illegal aliens.”

Hundreds of thousands? How did Sessions arrive at this number? It appears that he simply counted the number of adult Dreamers, as the program’s beneficiaries are known, and assumed that each had denied a job to an American.

That’s terrible economics. It’s a classic application of a well-known fallacy called the Lump of Labor — the idea that there are a fixed number of jobs in the world, and those jobs get divvied up among people.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Scurrilous

(38,687 posts)
24. Wow.
Thu Jan 23, 2020, 10:50 AM
Jan 2020

Horseshoe theory anyone?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Response to TomCADem (Original post)

 

NNadir

(33,574 posts)
12. While I have no use for Senator Sanders, regarding him as our worst candidate...
Fri Jan 17, 2020, 03:53 AM
Jan 2020

...I would be very careful of using the term "worse than Trump" on anything.

Senator Sanders is a fool, and would be a total disaster for the environment at precisely the time it is collapsing, but I very much doubt that he is "worse than Trump" on anything.

Again, I have no use for Sanders, but if he is ignorant, he is not more ignorant than Trump, if he is dogmatic and simplistic, he is not more so than Trump.

If forced to do so, I would vote for Senator Sanders since there is clearly a case of "lesser than two evils."

Since Trump is the most evil, ignorant, sexist and racist (at least post-slavery) President in US history, the use of "worse than Trump" in any context is not really a worthy attack.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

wiley

(2,921 posts)
13. Agreed. No Democrat is worse than Trump. Bernie would be okay
Fri Jan 17, 2020, 04:22 AM
Jan 2020

but he would never get elected.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

TomCADem

(17,390 posts)
18. How About Trade Protectionism? Bernie Has Said He Would Go Farther...
Sun Jan 19, 2020, 06:15 PM
Jan 2020

...than Trump has been threatening trade wars with Mexico and China, yet Bernie Sanders is the only candidate that has bragged about going even further than Trump with respect to protectionism. Of course, he has not been specific, just saying that he would be more "rational."

Put another way, has there ever been any trade deal that Bernie supported? The answer is no. Bernie has always postured on the issue of trade and scapegoated immigration and trade as a cause of the problems faced by American workers. He has painted himself into a corner on the issue.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

NNadir

(33,574 posts)
19. I don't believe that Senator Sanders would be putting small children in cages isolating them from...
Sun Jan 19, 2020, 06:24 PM
Jan 2020

...their parents, the parents being isolated themselves on grounds that are purely racist.

There are, I think, a hell of a lot of things more important than trade deals.

Children in cages, for me, would be one of those.

Senator Sanders is a fool; and he is far more ignorant than any other mainstream candidate, but he is not a Nazi.

OK?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

TomCADem

(17,390 posts)
20. But Bernie Has Said That He Opposes The New Trade Agreement with Mexico...
Sun Jan 19, 2020, 08:31 PM
Jan 2020

...that has overwhelming bipartisan support. Trump has flirted with shutting down the U.S. Mexico border, yet even he has indicated that he would support the trade agreement. With Bernie, part of his brand it to oppose trade agreements. It is pure isolationism.

You focus on the Trump's cruelty, which is indeed a difference. But in terms of pure ideological opposition to any type of trade agreement, Bernie goes even further than Trump.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

NNadir

(33,574 posts)
22. Well, OK. If you detest the guy as much as I do - it seems you might - a good start...
Sun Jan 19, 2020, 08:54 PM
Jan 2020

...would be to stop calling him by his familiar first name.

The frequency by which one calls former VP Biden, "Joey," or Mr. Yang "Andy" is far lower than the rote evocation of Senator Sanders as "Bernie." The familiarity is suggestive of someone who is your friend, someone you'd invite into your home.

Now, I would vote for Senator Sanders were he the nominee, which I really hope won't happen, but if forced to do so, I would do it weeping for my country and for the planet. I certainly would not invite Senator Sanders into my home; I wouldn't have a beer with him; I would simply, as I am doing now, hope for better times.

You're offended by Senator Sanders' views on trade and I'm offended by his climate rhetoric, which we go further toward killing the planet and will do so faster than is currently underway, and what is underway is an all time record for the destruction of the planetary atmosphere.

But for me, he's not "worse than Trump" on the issue most important to me, climate change. He is not more uneducated than Trump.

I fully concede that Senator Sanders views on trade are repulsive, or would be so in normal times. But again, I very much doubt that his views on trade with Mexico would extend to putting people in cages, children in fact. These are not normal times.

Senator Sanders may be childish in his economic views, but cannot be more childish than Trump. Senator Sanders may have contempt for the poor in the third world that we find repulsive, but it is not more repulsive than Trump's views, particularly since Trump's views are based almost entirely on virulent racism, where Sanders views are just based on simplistic thinking and ignorance.

There is a difference, I think.

If you cannot abide my remarks, let's just agree to disagree.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

still_one

(92,454 posts)
28. He also completely misrepresented what he said were job losses from NAFTA.
Thu Jan 23, 2020, 11:13 AM
Jan 2020
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/mar/07/bernie-sanders/sanders-overshoots-nafta-job-losses/

While his populous message may sound good to some, I have to wonder if he really understands the complexities involved





If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

corbettkroehler

(1,898 posts)
14. Introducing, Argentines For Trump
Fri Jan 17, 2020, 07:06 AM
Jan 2020

As a Floridian, I need to explain an important bloc to my fellow DUers, South Florida's right-leaning international voters. A large swath of them are expatriates from failed states, such as Argentina and Cuba and know far less than they claim.

Oppenheimer's position that NAFTA2.0 will reduce job losses for the American economy is a total non sequitur when we take into account the simple fact that this revised trade agreement includes only modest changes.

Sanders', Harris', Booker's and Schumer's opposition on climate grounds are further proof.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
15. Sanders' populism of course includes nationalism,
Fri Jan 17, 2020, 08:51 AM
Jan 2020

and it's nothing new. It's not the rabid version of RW populist movements, also of course, definitely a nationalist-lite version in comparison.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

NYMinute

(3,256 posts)
17. And there you have it folks!! nt
Fri Jan 17, 2020, 10:11 AM
Jan 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

oasis

(49,429 posts)
21. Bernie needs to hire a cadre of competent advisors. He's due to have
Sun Jan 19, 2020, 08:54 PM
Jan 2020

a rough ride in his presidency, should he make it through the general election.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Wawannabe

(5,685 posts)
25. Wait!
Thu Jan 23, 2020, 11:05 AM
Jan 2020

Is this a “kneecap” on Bernie by a major newspaper and is it recent?




Seriously. It’s high time to OUT bernie. He is not the right person to represent the Democrats.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

still_one

(92,454 posts)
26. He has questions to answer from his recent past, not only on trade, but also NATO and immigration
Thu Jan 23, 2020, 11:10 AM
Jan 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
27. Definitely true, and same for Warren. Both consider poor Mexican workers scabs. We ought to be
Thu Jan 23, 2020, 11:10 AM
Jan 2020

shoring up Mexico and other southern countries. It will be good for both of us. This "Economic Patriotism" -- as Warren euphemistically calls it -- is nothing but America First and Nationalism.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
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