Democratic Primaries
Related: About this forumDB: When Iran Took Americans Hostage, Bernie Backed Iran's Defenders
https://news.yahoo.com/iran-took-americans-hostage-bernie-100052053.html - reposted from daily beastBernie Sanders, a top competitor in the Democratic primaries, has attacked Joe Biden for bringing just a lot of baggage into the race. But if past views are a major consideration, consider the baggage that Sanders drags into the campaign.
Go back over 40 years, to the start of Irans long conflict with the United States. On April 1, 1979, the theocratic Islamic Republic of Iran was proclaimed. Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, who had returned to Iran from exile to assume command of the revolt, became Supreme Leader in December of that year. His rise was accelerated by the seizure on Nov. 4 of 52 American diplomats and citizens, and citizens of other countries, at the U.S. Embassy in Tehran. The hostage crisis became the means by which the Ayatollah crushed political opponents in Iran. Dealing with the hostage taking became the overwhelming political crisis for President Jimmy Carter. It lasted 444 days.
Virtually all AmericansDemocrats, Republicans and independentsunited in support of the hostages and the international call for their freedom. One prominent political figure on the 2020 stage, then almost completely unknown, stood apart by joining a Marxist-Leninist party that not only pledged support for the Iranian theocracy, but also justified the hostage taking by insisting the hostages were all likely CIA agents. Who was that person? It was Bernie Sanders.
Sanders would like the public to believe, as an AP story put it, that democratic socialism [is] the economic philosophy that has guided his political career. But that has not always been the case. In 1977, he left the tiny left-wing Liberty Union Party of Vermont that hed co-founded, and in 1980 instead aligned himself with the Socialist Workers Party (SWP), the self-proclaimed Trotskyist revolutionary party, became its presidential elector in Vermont, and campaigned for its candidates and platform that defended the Iranian hostage seizure.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Tiggeroshii
(11,088 posts)completely involve the CIA (IE assassinating Mossedegh, overthrowing the democratic government and installing the Shah, etc). If nothing else, his being president demonstrates good will with Iran where that is in a chronic deficit.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
getagrip_already
(14,891 posts)Yes, that was far fetched and a wretched position. It also ushered in ronald reagan.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
TwilightZone
(25,499 posts)That's an interesting position.
If you wonder why some of us have a hard time taking Sanders (and some of his supporters) seriously, it's generally because of assertions like this one.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ExciteBike66
(2,383 posts)I mean, assuming they were covert agents, the Iranian government certainly had the right to detain them, no? I mean, wouldn't we detain Iranian secret agents in our country?
I'm not arguing they were CIA, but your question assumed they were.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
TwilightZone
(25,499 posts)is an indefensible position, regardless of the target. "What if he'd been right" is irrelevant, because a) he was flat-out wrong, and b) it's not a justifiable position even if he'd been right.
The lengths people will go to support their candidates are a bit mind-boggling.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ExciteBike66
(2,383 posts)"What if he'd been right" is irrelevant"
Yes, but once again it was your own question that assumed the fact they were CIA. If they were CIA, and indeed were covert CIA agents, then detaining them is certainly something we would expect Iran to do.
b) it's not a justifiable position even if he'd been right.
What exactly would America have done if they suspected 52 Iranian covert agents were in our country? Wouldn't we detain them (answer: yes we would).
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
getagrip_already
(14,891 posts)Here, even under trump we wouldnt do that. An embassy is sovereign territory.
It would take court orders and congressional approval.
And we would like just expell them.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
squirecam
(2,706 posts)That Bernie can do no wrong?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Tiggeroshii
(11,088 posts)We overthrew their democratically elected leader and entire government before any of this crap happened. This problem did not start with the Iranianian revolution. It started with us overthrew mossadegh and installing a dictator.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
TwilightZone
(25,499 posts)And it makes it OK that Sanders' stance was based on false information, insisting that the targets were CIA agents?
The ads write themselves. All the GOP will have to do is state that Sanders was in a communist sect that justified Iranian hostage-taking with the false claim that they were all CIA agents.
How do you propose we counter that? It's not even false.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Tiggeroshii
(11,088 posts)Than ignoring the context. If you chastise Iran for hostages, you gotta have the same anger for the united states as well. And given the situation, and the historical context, the CIAs involvement was absolutely not a far fetched idea, as that has been our tendency in the country since 1953.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Kahuna7
(2,531 posts)all the rest of the material suggesting he had an affinity for socialists and communists dictators.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
tishaLA
(14,176 posts)And probably Soviet disinformation, at that.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Docreed2003
(16,883 posts)A). The general public is so well known for their understanding of historical context
B). Your statement might carry more weight if it was historically accurate. The CIA overthrew Mossadegh, yes, but it didn't assasinate him. Mossadegh died in house arrest years after the CIA coup.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Tiggeroshii
(11,088 posts)It sounds like you are saying that because the public is not well read on this, we should not have a president who is. That's ridiculous.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Docreed2003
(16,883 posts)I'm saying the public won't have any sympathy for Sanders position on the taking of American diplomats as hostages. If you think they will, perhaps you have more faith than I do in the populace. I'd wager that most Americans have no idea about the CIA coup that installed the shah in the first place.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Tiggeroshii
(11,088 posts)Either. He is likely to admit he was wrong about it if this comes up, but honestly explain the context in a way that is badly needed in a leader. But I also think you'll be surprised how many people will actually care about this in the General Election.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
dware
(12,449 posts)2 wrongs make a right?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
George II
(67,782 posts)...the first thing Assange did was head to Ecuador's Embassy?
Any AMERICAN who justified that in 1979 had a different agenda.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Tiggeroshii
(11,088 posts)Overthrow their democracy, -but that doesnt change the fact it happened and it doesnt prevent people from looking at the situation through that lens.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Tiggeroshii
(11,088 posts)But understanding historical context is far different from condoning bad behavior.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Demsrule86
(68,715 posts)That was a bad time in America.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
TwilightZone
(25,499 posts)Enough people remember it that all the GOP would have to do is show pictures of the blindfolded hostages along with the party's stance and note Sanders' involvement in said party.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Demsrule86
(68,715 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
TwilightZone
(25,499 posts)I figured that we'd seen a lot of it. The rape fantasy stuff, the honeymoon in Moscow, etc. I knew it could cause trouble, but I thought most of it was out there and would grow a bit stale before it would be used in a GE. Plus, it was decades ago and so on.
I'm starting to think I was being a bit optimistic.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
George II
(67,782 posts)....got Ronald Reagan elected.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Tiggeroshii
(11,088 posts)As far as using CIA operatives?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Demsrule86
(68,715 posts)matter what you can't tolerate hostage taking. This will leave a mark.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Tiggeroshii
(11,088 posts)We tried to kill their democratic leader. A few hostages is nothing compared to that obvious fact, and putting the words in a historical context changes the argument entirely.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
TwilightZone
(25,499 posts)Right, Bernie justified Iran storming our embassy by falsely claiming that the targets were CIA agents, but it's ok that he was wrong because we had it coming.
That sounds like a brilliant strategy.
obviously.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Tiggeroshii
(11,088 posts)And put the "we are the US and can do no harm" shtick off for a sec and see how it goes. Left wing right wing, we all know it's BS anyways
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
TwilightZone
(25,499 posts)Not making a bunch of excuses trying to justify why he was kinda right, even though he was completely wrong.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Tiggeroshii
(11,088 posts)And putting somebody in charge who wont make excuses for US behavior like overthrowing democracies and putting hits out on foreign leaders. He was right about the the context of the situation even if he was wrong about the specifics, and the fact is these people were suspected of being CIA agents and there was a lot of reason for Iran and others to suspect it, given the history.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)"I have an excuse for that."
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
karynnj
(59,507 posts)There were people who argued we should not have allowed the Shah into the US - where he was in the hospital. No one anywhere on the mainstream of the political spectrum argued that Iran was in the right when they took those in the embassy as hostage.
Rather than arguing that, I would be trying to verify if this is even true. It is possible that that party took that position, the question is whether Sanders himself ever publicly said anything on that. I would bet that this is a case of the Socialist workers party supported A, therefore Sanders did.
If he actually did say that, it is a real problem. Sanders was not a high school or college student then, he was an adult.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)"But understanding historical context is" blah blah.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Tiggeroshii
(11,088 posts)The CIA embedded an operative early on who was in charge of networking and organizing from within.
Let's go back to "literal," why dont we?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/2425360001
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)You're being literally silly.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Tiggeroshii
(11,088 posts)The question was whether it was ridiculous to use only cia agents in an operation. Clearly it wasnt, because we did. We orchestrated a coup in Iran and likely kept our cia active there as is our tendency. The hostages were not cia but it wasn't crazy to suspect they could be.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)There's literally no equivalence between mercenaries and an embassy. You're welcome to take Iranian propaganda at face value, but it would be more comforting to think that Sanders was not that naive.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Tiggeroshii
(11,088 posts)It was not "literally" or figuratively exactly how that occurred, although the CIA was very active in both countries around the same time, literally installing operatives throughout different parts of the country, and it is naive to think that Iran would not be suspicious of folks for that reason, nor have reason to be suspicious.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)I don't believe the Iranians even made such a claim at the time. It was, after all, demonstrators who seized the compound, with Khomeini only later using the siege to thump his chest.
Of note: AFAIK none of the hostages were intel - which is kinda surprising because intel is embedded in every embassy around the world, even by the "good" guys.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Kahuna7
(2,531 posts)Every night the news led with the number of days since the hostages had been taken. I don't give a damn if you agree with the Iranians cause or whatever, innocent Americans suffered. If this would ever be exposed nationally, Bernie would lose the senior votes overwhelmingly because we lived that trauma.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Thekaspervote
(32,809 posts)Last edited Fri Jan 17, 2020, 05:53 PM - Edit history (1)
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
George II
(67,782 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
The Valley Below
(1,701 posts)One of a litany of dIsQuAlIfYiNg stances by Bernard Sanders.
Not suitable.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cha
(297,800 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
melman
(7,681 posts)adjunct fellow at the Hudson Institute (right-wing think tank)
note that the book they try to pass off as "a History of the Democratic Party" is actually called...
Divided They Fell: The Demise of the Democratic Party 1964-1996
Nice source.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
TexasTowelie
(112,517 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Skya Rhen
(2,701 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Kahuna7
(2,531 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Turbineguy
(37,374 posts)was in response to the Russian desire to export the Bolshevik revolution.
In case anybody wonders who's idea it was to interfere with other people's elections.
If you forget that, than everything the U.S. did was unprovoked and evil.
And like many revolutions, the Iranians wish to make everybody happier by exporting theirs.
Of course Bernie Sanders did not go so far as selling the Iranian revolutionaries weapons.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
NYMinute
(3,256 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
janterry
(4,429 posts)Biden? Read the convoluted mess he makes when talking about his past votes (especially the Iraq war).
I trust Bernie
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
getagrip_already
(14,891 posts)I trust liz.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
janterry
(4,429 posts)and I think that conversation probably had some truth to it - on both sides (Warren and Sanders).
It's clear that he supports women and supports women in government.
In sharp contrast, the mess that Biden says about his Iraq vote.
I most certainly don't believe Biden at all.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided