Democratic Primaries
Related: About this forumIt could be different without the "Bernie or Bust" legacy.
I find a lot of the attacks on Bernie going around unfair, and even absurd. Take one example, the Warren thing. There's pretty much no plausible way that he actually told her a woman couldn't win. It's contrary to everything he's said his entire life, and he tried to recruit her in 2016. It was at best a miscommunication, at worst a move by Warren. And the way the media covered it, like CNN saying it was "reported out" with multiple sources even though it was literally a "he said, she said" situation with only two people present in the room, was nuts.
The recent attacks from Hillary, also, are dumb. "Nobody likes him" -- are we in second grade? She also committed what in my mind is the cardinal sin of primaries, which is saying she might not back him if he wins the nomination. Stupid. This isn't Tulsi Gabbard, it's someone who has a decent chance of actually being the nominee, and who has a long and solid record of defending progressive policies.
Bernie's campaign's explanation for the unfair criticism he gets, and why they get repeated, is that the media is pro-corporate and pro-establishment, and yeah, there's something to that. But there's the undeniable fact that a lot of very loud Bernie supporters online are very abrasive. And blowback is a real thing. I mean, if candidate A supports a $12 dollar minimum wage and you say "well, 12 is good, but 15 is better", you might win some people over. But if you say "anything less than 15 makes candidate A neoliberal corporate scum" then people will get pissed off, and some of them will go on to retweet equally stupid attacks on Bernie.
Is it fair to hold Bernie responsible for his annoying Twitter supporters? Maybe not. And twitter has a lot of annoying people, supporting all candidates. But, fair or unfair, it still makes a difference, because people are human. I can say that, for me, the fact that Bernie supporters in 2016 kept posting links to morons like HA Goodman (now a Trump supporter) and Jimmy Dore (Jill Stein voter) definitely turned me off, irrational as that may be.
But Bernie is not innocent here. Nobody but Bernie is responsible for appointing Bernie-or-Busters like Nina Turner to high level positions in his campaign. He probably could have told Zephyr Teachout not to write that article accusing Biden of corruption (but it's good that he apologized). In 2016, he probably could have prevented his delegates from booing and yelling insults at conventions.
I think Bernie could easily be doing much better, maybe the front-runner. If 2016 hadn't gone down with the vitriol that it did, if he hadn't chosen to surround himself with Nina Turner and David Sirota and company this year, he'd be in a different place. It's too bad really, because he's got a great record and the most solid progressive credentials around.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
getagrip_already
(14,891 posts)Ignoring 2016 completely, if this was his first campaign, he still wouldn't be a good candidate.
By his own admission, he is a chaos candidate. He wants a revolution.
In 2020, that isn't what we need. We need to save the last revolution, repair damage caused by Trump, and rebuild alliances.
A uniter, not a bomb thrower.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
DanTex
(20,709 posts)If anything, being a "uniter" with the GOP is bad. Historically it means things like a "grand bargain" to cut social security and medicare. Whether he has a record of legislative accomplishments is debatable, but it's certainly true that his voting record is very solidly progressive, with the exception of gun control.
Is a "uniter" more likely to beat Trump than a "bomb-thrower"? That's not clear either way.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
BannonsLiver
(16,508 posts)I decided I couldnt stand Bernie 8 years ago when he wanted Obama primaried.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
George II
(67,782 posts)...and even today, after the half-hearted apology (Teachout hasn't apologized, Sirota hasn't apologized) Gray persisting in calling Biden corrupt?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
DanTex
(20,709 posts)It's basically paving the road for Trump to attack Biden in the general election. Which is my point. Without this kind of thing, he'd be a great candidate.
I don't think his apology was "half-hearted", it seemed pretty solid to me. But he must understand that with people like Sirota and Gray on his campaign, this stuff will keep happening.
I think he could make all the same points he is currently making, including criticizing the Democratic Party as a whole for moving to the right economically and away from unions and working people, without his surrogates explicitly calling other candidates corrupt.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
George II
(67,782 posts)....if the apology didn't sink in with even his top people it wasn't strong enough. Until he gets HIS people to drop this and apologize, maybe it wasn't "half-hearted" but it certainly wasn't sincere.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Gothmog
(145,666 posts)I will support the nominee of the party but I strongly doubt that sanders will be the nominee of the party. There are far too many real Democrats who have good memories and who will not forgive or forget
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Kahuna7
(2,531 posts)all the way to the convention....even after he lost. What did he expect would happen at the convention? I believe the chaos at the convention is exactly what he expected.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LiberalLovinLug
(14,178 posts)And the actual candidate they are supporting. (Or past candidate)
Also, I am positive that many of those Tweeters are Putin trolls, and Republican trolls. Not actual Democratic party voters. Sowing division is their primary purpose.
They say 12% of Sanders supporters (most who were I's that wouldn't vote Hillary anyways) did not vote for Hillary.
But double that, 24% of PUMAs vowed not to vote for Obama because they felt unfairly treated in that primary.
That's why its unfair to judge a candidate on their most fringe supporters and probably troll farm employees.
I look at the persons they are supporting. And it does not look good on Hillary to be throwing out school yard insults. While Sanders is committed to rising above that.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
George II
(67,782 posts)....beyond overzealous supporters around the country. This is still being promoted by his National Press Secretary and his Campaign Communications Director. There's not merely "supporters".
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
TwilightZone
(25,499 posts)To date, the "corrupt" editorial is probably the most obvious case of unfounded attacks this campaign cycle from anyone closely associated with a campaign. It was so ridiculous that Sanders had to apologize for it. The campaign's dissemination of an edited video claiming the opposite of reality regarding Paul Ryan and Biden wasn't much better.
Social media certainly has its share of trolls, but many of the worst self-inflicted wounds are being caused by Sanders' staff and surrogates, not random people on social media.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cha
(297,805 posts)been around long before Russian entered into.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
delisen
(6,046 posts)voters and operatives have suggested the same. 2020 is not 2015. Hillary Clinton announced that she was going to be running for president in April,2016. It was a widely anticipated announcement and many people considered that she had a good chance of winning, despite prejudice against women. In 2015 Sanders was encouraging Warren to run against Hillary Clinton in a primary-Warren would have been a female alternative to Clinton.
Fast forward to 2020 election cycle: The circumstances have changed mightily and many voters have become fearful and adopt a more conservative stance.
Their argument is that we cannot afford to be "idealistic" and/ "egalitarian" when democracy itself is at stake.
Secondly they are trying to weave a path to victory in the general election by attracting more male voters in certain states and they believe their targeted voters are more prejudiced against a women attaining the presidency.
Sanders changing his mind from a view held in 2015 is entirely plausible.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
The Valley Below
(1,701 posts)He is the font of his movement.
He is the one who embraced fueling populist rage as his revolution's motivating principle.
It all comes from him.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden