Democratic Primaries
Related: About this forumGillibrand on Al Franken : No regrets
Last edited Sun Feb 24, 2019, 01:08 PM - Edit history (2)
Kirsten Gillibrand, Al Franken & The Perils Of Standing Up To Powerful MenThis past week, Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand made it clear that she doesn't regret calling for Al Franken's resignation, despite the how-dare-she anger from prominent Democratic donors, conservative political columnists, and bored men on the internet. On campaign stops and in phone calls with supporters, as well as in Facebook ads that asked for donations, the New York senator and 2020 presidential candidate said she is fighting for sexual assault survivors to be heard and doesn't care if she pays the price for it. ...
"I will stand up to our own party if I need to," Gillibrand told supporters this week at a bar in Iowa City, IA. "And that's what Al Franken's about. And I know Democrats are very sad about Al Franken, I'm sad about Al Franken. But the truth of this issue is very clear, he had eight credible allegations against him that were corroborated in real time, by the press that were investigating it. ... Enough was enough."
"[Gillibrand] was not the only person to call for his resignation; she was among a group of Democratic senators who called for him to step down," Manne told Refinery29. "But Gillibrand is the one who is singled out and blamed. When what she did was take a principled stance her overall platform is prioritizing the interests of women and being quite progressive on gender politics she was called an opportunist and a betrayer. I thought that was pretty misogynistic." ...
Rebecca Brubaker, a 22-year-old living in L.A., said she supports Gillibrand because, "She has been a champion for sexual assault victims. That made me have immense respect for her." Sexual assault on college campuses and in the military were part of the core of Gillibrand's legislative agenda in the Senate.
https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2019/02/225028/kirsten-gillibrand-al-franken-sexual-harassment-2020-presidential-race
Gillibrand calls for Al Frankens resignation
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
LakeArenal
(28,889 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Control-Z
(15,682 posts)before the Al Franken situation though the outcome gobsmacked me. I expected investigations, at the very least. Take Franken out of the picture and I believe I would still feel the same about Gillibrand.
I was already questioning myself about the me too movement and whether or not I was being overly sensitive. I still haven't figured it out and have put it on the back burner just as I have all my life.
I'll leave it at that.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)Franken didnt commit a crime.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Control-Z
(15,682 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)since Franken was never accused of committing a crime.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Control-Z
(15,682 posts)trying to make. IIRC, Franken asked for an investigation. Right? But he didn't get that. Nor was he charged with a crime. Ultimately, he was pushed out by party members.
Am I remembering this correctly?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)which is not something like the Mueller investigation and doesnt determine guilt or innocence just if Congressional ethics rules were violated. It is doubtful that the Republicans on the ethics committee would have given Franken a fair hearing anyway.
And no one pushed him out. While over 35 other Senators did call for him to resign but they had no power to push him out. He chose to resign.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ailsagirl
(22,911 posts)No longer having Franken in the Senate was/is a HUGE loss.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
area51
(11,944 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
trueblue2007
(17,250 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Canoe52
(2,949 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
crazytown
(7,277 posts)get with the program
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Funtatlaguy
(10,896 posts)Sexual Assault?
Sexual Harassment?
Sexual Improprieties?
Sexual innuendos?
What EXACTLY was he ever accused of? I never understood that.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
catrose
(5,079 posts)The allegations we know about took place in public, unlike every other sexual allegation ever, except for Taylor Swift and the Groping DJ.
I wanted the moment to be a shining example of how to do things, you know, with an investigation. Instead we got a rerun of Mean Girls and lost a powerful voice in Washington, the voice that made Jeff Sessions recuse himself.
I'm a sexual assault survivor, and Gillibrand did not support me with her actions. I felt betrayed. Still do.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
dalton99a
(81,708 posts)but then this is the same politician who said Bill Clinton should have resigned - after Hillary practically gave her seat to her
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)Im just curious as to what accomplishments you are referring to.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
brush
(53,978 posts)which is why she's only garnering one percent support in the polls.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LastLiberal in PalmSprings
(12,603 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)I figure she drops out real soon.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
RazBerryBeret
(3,075 posts)and I agree 100 percent.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
dalton99a
(81,708 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
defacto7
(13,485 posts)You can either take a path that only makes noise or take one that gets results. This one will get her nowhere.
Now I have 2 down Gillibrand and Hickenlooper.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ZeroSomeBrains
(638 posts)No regrets here on not wanting to vote for her either.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
quickesst
(6,283 posts)She is not being criticize for her role in the departure of Al Franken alone. She has a proven history of throwing good people under the bus to advance her own cause. She is not to be trusted. If it came down to gillibrand and drump would I vote for her? Without a doubt it with no hesitation, but I would spend the next four years wondering, worrying, and to some extent fearing what she would do next.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)How so?
The two people who immediately benefited from Frankens resignation were Corey Booker and Kamala Harris, who both called for Franken resignation within minutes of Gillibrand, got high profile seat on the Judiciary committee a few days later. Are they proven opportunists too?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
defacto7
(13,485 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
quickesst
(6,283 posts)How about starting with her transformation from an A+ rating from the NRA to an F rating after being appointed to Hillary Clinton senate seat. Then you have her transformation from an anti-immigrant politician to a pro immigrant politician at about the same time. We will continue with throwing the Clintons under the bus after they campaigned for her. Then there is the Al Franken resignation in which she led the charge for his ouster, thus gaining what she perceived as the moral high ground without giving a thought to an ethics hearing to determine his actual guilt or not, and at the same time eliminating probably the biggest hurdle for her 2020 presidential run. Several top donors and supporters have affirmed there displeasure at her actions against Al Franken and will not be supporting or donating to her presidential campaign. After stating emphatically that she would serve the full six years of her Senate term, 2 Days later confirmed that she was weighing her options as to a presidential bid. All of this is pretty easy to substantiate with a little due diligence.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)No politician is allowed to change their stance on an issue? Was Obama just being an opportunist when he changed his stance on same sex marriage? Elizabeth Warren was a Republican until 1996, is she an opportunist too because she is now a Democrat?
As far as the Clintons, while I don't agree with her opinion, how was it throwing them under the bus since they are no longer running for political office?
And since when is leading the charge defined as making a facebook post less than 5 minutes before several others? The reality that this was a highly coordinated effort among the Democratic caucus: https://www.cnn.com/2017/12/06/politics/senators-al-franken-resignation/index.html To single out Gillibrand is just unfair.
Plus, you are woefully misinformed about an ethics committee hearing. It does not determine guilt or innocence. It only determines if Congressional ethics rules have been violated. And do you really think that the republican members were planning on giving Franken a fair hearing?
You are accusing Gillibrand of "eliminating probably the biggest hurdle for her 2020 presidential run". Where is the proof of this? You said that it was "pretty easy to substantiate with a little due diligence". So show some credible links that this was her motivation. I'll also add that the immediate beneficiaries of Franken's resignation were Booker and Harris who got high profile seats on the Judiciary committee.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
PatSeg
(47,770 posts)but Gillibrand has a history of doing so whenever it was politically convenient for her. It makes it hard to actually trust anything she says. She is far from our best and brightest, I'm sorry to say. That said, I really don't see her getting very far in the primaries. We have so many strong candidates to choose from.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)I don't think she'll even make it to Iowa and New Hampshire. She is too wishy-washy and doesn't generate much excitement. My point is it is unfair to demonize her because she has evolved on issue. Every politician does.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
PatSeg
(47,770 posts)that point extensively. Meanwhile, many people have pointed out that she has "evolved" on too many issues to be taken seriously. I don't think people really trust her.
That said, we have a lot of really important issues to focus on right now. Gillibrand would be toward the bottom of my list.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)Warren was a Republican for most of her adult life. This really seems like a double standard.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
PatSeg
(47,770 posts)and make our own evaluations based on different criteria. Meanwhile, this is starting to feel like an argument for the sake of argument and as such is a waste of both our time.
I'm sure we'll talk again.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)Gillibrand doesnt have a chance.
This is about double standards . One person gets demonized while another gets a pass for doing the same thing. It is unfair.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
PatSeg
(47,770 posts)you managed to post over 50 times, 25% of the thread. You pretty much are just saying the same thing over and over again. Pointless overkill I'd say. I think everyone here knows how you feel.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)Its about basic fairness and holding everyone to the same standards.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Jakes Progress
(11,124 posts)That's how I show my work.
There may be many reasons why someone posts so much on only one subject over and over.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
PatSeg
(47,770 posts)I was thinking the same thing. Not terribly subtle sometimes.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)that I'm winning an argument when I'm personally attacked rather than even trying to refute the points that I'm making.
I'm just speaking up for simple principles of fairness and truth. Sorry that so many are threatened by that.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #219)
Post removed
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)for proving my point!
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
quickesst
(6,283 posts)Last edited Mon Feb 25, 2019, 12:42 AM - Edit history (1)
Well you are correct that the Ethics Committee does not determine guilt or innocence, I firmly believe that a hearing would have brought into the question his guilt or innocence as far as the public is concerned, and the outcome of that hearing would have leaned heavily in favor Franken's innocence.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)on the Ethics committee would have given Franken a fair hearing?
Do you really think any Senator, Democrat or Republican, would accuse an Army veteran of lying?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
quickesst
(6,283 posts).... we'll never know.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
brush
(53,978 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
DBoon
(22,430 posts)nt
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
quickesst
(6,283 posts)There is nothing wrong with taking advantage of opportunity. It is the consequences that matter.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)I think she's one (of many) who will drop out before we get to the Iowa caucus. She doesn't really fill any niche and has no regional advantage (like Klobuchar does, for instance).
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Trenzalore
(2,331 posts)She'll raise a lot of money from Wall Street.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)She just doesnt stand out. Shes too blah and doesnt generate any excitement.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
brush
(53,978 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
I was correcting the unfair demonization of her.
Doesnt mean I think she is a viable candidate.
Some of us can walk and chew gum at the same time.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
brush
(53,978 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)Because the demonization of her is unfair.
Still doesnt mean I think she is a viable candidate.
If we believe in truth and fairness, we must be willing to stand even for those we dont support. If not we are just as bad as the right wingers we oppose.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
brush
(53,978 posts)Last edited Mon Feb 25, 2019, 03:23 PM - Edit history (1)
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)Singling one out is unfair and a double standard.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
brush
(53,978 posts)Last edited Mon Feb 25, 2019, 08:44 PM - Edit history (1)
on this that she was the first out of the gate on this on SiriusXM satelitte radio (Channel 127) right after the Stone/Hannity/Tweeden hit job story first broke. On that show she not only called for Franken to immediately step down but that Bill Clinton who backed her to take over Hillary's Senate seat, should have also retroactively resigned.
And she kept up the pressure in leading the way to force Franken out. So please cut the crap as if she was just one of 30 senators. Her ambition, gullibility and poor judgement led her rush to judgement and she kayoed a good senator. The others followed her lead, hoping to not be accused of being luke warm against sexual harrassmentnot to their credit for sure but Gillibrand led the way so please stop denying it.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)Every credible source note that Gillibrand and the over 35 other Senators didn't call on Franken to resign until the morning of 12/6.
As the article on CNN stated:
https://www.cnn.com/2017/12/06/politics/senators-al-franken-resignation/index.html
You're making several accusations to demonize Gillibrand. Do you have any credible sources to back them up?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
brush
(53,978 posts)on SiriusXM (Progressive radion127). It was on as I said right after the hit job story broke, way before CNN.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)you provide the link.
Re-read the CNN article, she didnt call for Frankens resignation until December 6th, the same morning as most other Democrats.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
brush
(53,978 posts)I told how to find the interview I heard with my own ears. If you don't want to take the effort that's on you.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)Every credible source says so. Post links to prove your accusations or admit that you cant.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
brush
(53,978 posts)and know definitely that she was the driving force behind him being forced to step down.
I now what I heard on the radio as well (o0u refuse to research it apparently so you can keep repeating the same inaccuracy you do on every thread on this subject) and again, you can't rewrite history, even though you keep trying to.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)Every credible source shows that no one in the Senate called Franken to resign until the morning of December 6th. Here is another article that documents that fact: https://www.cnn.com/2017/12/06/politics/al-franken-democratic-senators-resign/index.html
And Gillibrand was first to say Franken should resign in a Facebook post, but was followed within minutes by several others, not that she was the ringleader or driving force. I have researched it and the credible sources dont say anything that disputes that. I asked many times for links to credible sources that prove the accusations and always get the same evasions such as do your own research.
I have repeatedly posted links to credible sources that support what Iave stated. All Im asking that others do the same.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
democratisphere
(17,235 posts)Me either.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
dchill
(38,626 posts)Anyone who begins to believe that buttwash doesn't belong in the Senate, let alone the Presidency. There is NO credible allegation against Franken.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)But there were 7 other women who accused Franken. I have never seen any proof that they were all lying.
http://time.com/5042931/al-franken-accusers/
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)it's up to accusers to prove they're telling the truth. "Why would they lie" is not proof.
If all we go by is the number of claims, then vaccines are bad and Bigfoot is real.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)not for keeping a job.
And if the same standard was applied to Roy Moore or Brett Kavanaugh and many others, aren't they owed apologies?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)The burden of proof is on the affirmative claim, because disproving a negative claim is often impossible.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)Moore and Kavanaugh are owed apologies?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)Otherwise, our vaunted "higher standard" is just bullshit.
Edited to add: That's what pisses me off so much about the Franken debacle; I don't believe he was trashed because everyone believed the allegations. I think he was sacrificed under the misguided and idiotic belief that by doing so, the Republicans would have to hold themselves to the same standard.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)I agree with your second statement but would add that Franken took one for the team.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)I couldn't accuse an individual directly based on just that.
And I don't think Franken "took one for the team"; he was clearly abandoned in the face of a McCarthyist witch hunt, and had no choice.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)but decided not to. No one held a gun to his head to resign. I don't think that Franken was or is that weak.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)Any call to examine the facts would have been called "abusing the victims all over again"; the climate of the time was that all accusers were believed, all accused were guilty. It is absolute nonsense to believe that he could have fought it.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)of the climate of the time. I tend to agree with that. But also that he recognized this and took one for the team.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
PatSeg
(47,770 posts)Franken was a sacrifice. I doubt that most of the Democrats in the senate believed the allegations, but as I recall, some later expressed regrets. Should have been more. A promising career was destroyed and we lost a powerful voice.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LiberalLovinLug
(14,180 posts)With the descriptions of what some of these women claim. All with no proof. That in putting his arm around one, his hand also was on the side of her breast. OMG. Another claims that his hand reached down, as her husband was taking the picture, and cupped her buttocks. Really? Why would he knowingly do that? Especially as an elected official. Others he said he couldn't remember them. And of course Tweeden, the coarse performer that behaved much worse herself, actually grabbing male performers by their privates on stage. She who sat there, pretending to be asleep with a full jacket on, and Al hovered his hands above her breasts and grinned it up for the camera with a room full of other comedians. Decades ago, juvenile school boy humor to be sure, but his profession was a comedian, a profession that society gives more leeway, and they are used to getting more leeway. Especially back then. Context.
Our side has to be so pure and clean we can't even be accused by woman who were organized by Roger Stone and Don Jr. to take down one of their Dear Leader, Dear Father's most ardent effective Senators.
They are fine with a President of the USA stumping for a pedofile candidate, and who brags himself about assaulting women, just because he can.
I'm not saying we reduce our morals down to that stinking pit, but surely we have to at least not throw our own into the pit based on a few scurrilous charges directed by Don Jr. and Stone, before even allowing an ethics review to occur.
I agree that others like Booker, Harris, Sanders, etc.. should also be held accountable. I think its human nature to pick on the most prominent, and first, person who reacts in this ad hock baseless manner. I think the whole party needs make things right with Al.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)Including the Army veteran?
And we should have a higher standard than the Republicans. If we don't, we are no better.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LiberalLovinLug
(14,180 posts)I was only laying out the synopsis of their accusations. How either downright fake outrage as Tweeden did in cahoots with Stone. Or accusations made about allegations off camera. And most of all the others can be incidents of things that could be exaggerated, or even misconstrued. His arm is a little too far around her side and lands on the side of her breast. Or thinking his hand slipped on a little too low on her lower back for her comfort.
Maybe Franken, who has championed women's issues, and worked with many liberal women, during his career, has been groping women for fun, right in front of the camera even, haphazardly as a politician over and over. Or maybe Stone and Don Jr. recruited these women to exaggerate their encounters. You can decide for yourself. I have.
And another thing even IF. Which I don't believe. But even IF......how is this juvenile type behaviour, and/or social liberties, any kind of serious predatory sexual assault? How does any of it rise to the level as being so horrid that they don't even need an ethics review to know he is not worthy to continue as Senator?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)Is there any evidence that any of the 7 other women were lying or had any contact with Stone or Don Jr. as you have inferred. Please provide links to credible sources.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)We've been over this before, you and the dirty tricksters have nothing.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)To date you have never shown any evidence that any of the other 7 women were lying.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)An alleged sexual assault victim voted for the pussygrabber?
Sit down, you have nothing.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)any of the other 7 were lying. Post links from credible sources that provide evidence to prove your accusations or admit you cant.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)You're smart enough. I'll wait.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)Here is a summary. http://time.com/5042931/al-franken-accusers/
Now post evidence that proves they were all lying.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)Can't prove anything without names, Slappy.
Hope you're not faced with unprovable anonymous allegations.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)Nice to know.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)good luck dying on that hill.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)Prove your accusation that they were all lying or admit that you cant.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)That's how it works.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)now prove or admit you cant. Thats how it works.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)You chose to milk them for what it's worth. The burden of proof is on you, kid.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)They have to prove their accusations to your satisfaction but you don't have to prove your accusations at all.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)And like I said, anonymous accusations are worthless without names.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)And anonymous accusations are not worthless. BTW we all are anonymous here, so does that mean your accusations are worthless too?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)You'd better believe the case will be filed with my name on it. If you are unwilling to attach a name to a serious accusation, then don't complain if allegations attract questions and disbelief.
In any case, those who would rather stick up for trumpanzees first than for a fellow Democrat, especially for a good man like Al Franken, is no Democratic ally.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)and Franken was never accused of one. He lost a job.
And just because someone is a fellow Democrat doesnt mean we should have a different standard for them than we do for everyone else. That s just wrong, morally and ethically.
And.once again Ill ask can you show any evidence that all of the 7 women were lying without all the smears and evasions?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)then we can start proving guilt. Until then, you have nothing.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)Prove they were lying lying or admit you cant.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
oasis
(49,490 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Trenzalore
(2,331 posts)She will raise a lot of money from the people that most democrats trust the least.
Franken matter aside I would never choose her in a primary.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)Let her waste the money of wall street pirates, it's all good!
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Trenzalore
(2,331 posts)She will still be a Senator and a more progressive President will have a new Max Baucus like character shitting on legislation.
It will be 6 years before the good people of NY can show her the door.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)no doubt.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)just re-elected her last November with over 66% of the vote. What makes you think they are going to show her the door in six years?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Trenzalore
(2,331 posts)I know a certain young ambitious congresswoman who would love to challenge her in a primary.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)In fact she has one of the most liberal voting records and the most anti-Trump voting records:
https://progressivepunch.org/scores.htm?house=senate
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/congress-trump-score/
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
brooklynite
(95,011 posts)As opposed to a low turnout Primary in a bluer than blue district?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Zoonart
(11,916 posts)She was drafted to run for the seat explicitly because she could be made palatable to the both the Wall Street crowd, and to the red portion of the state west of the Hudson River.
She is a HARD NO for me.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
hlthe2b
(102,562 posts)--still carrying a big zero percent of the vote on DU and...ditto on the Real Clear Politics polling in Iowa:
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/ia/iowa_democratic_presidential_caucus-6731.html
Yup... no regrets.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)The fact is, she is a hard centrist candidate in an election where even many moderate voters want to at least tilt the balance more to the left, thanks to trump's outright breaking of the balance. It is one thing to promise that once you are in power, that you will start to lean leftward, well, in part thanks to Hillary Losing, in part because Trump has already done decades of damage, people will not buy that tune as easily as they would have in 2016. We will not something stronger to get the taste of trump out of our mouth, especially since we now know that W. was not a fluke:there really ARE a bunch of Americans who are in no way interested in common good, fairness or even their own damned GOP principles. There really re Americans who are working to make sure the 21st century has the slave markets, the witch hunts, the illiteracy, the deadly working conditions and all the old horrors that never should have survived the 18th century.
In other words, when your health goes from being a bad cold to Pneumonia, you need the stronger doses.
PS: If people consider Gillibrand a crusader for women, they better hope they donot run into the fellow that put in and defended VAWA. Joe Biden may have hang ups, but when it comes to women, or goading Obama into finally supporting Gay marriage, or supporting Obama Care, he has done things that are, to use his words, a "BIG f***ing Deal."
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
LiberalLovinLug
(14,180 posts)when applying it to a Democratic rep. Fuck this "centrist" BS. "Centrist" by any standards looking at the positions they take are right of center. And if that is the case then a "hard centrist" would be a corporatist serving conservative Democrat.
Not meaning to pick on your post, just the straw that broke the camels back. I actually agree with everything you wrote.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Paladin
(28,287 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
tinrobot
(10,927 posts)I've not been impressed by her public appearances. She's got no spark and is rather forgettable. There are plenty of more vibrant candidates out there.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)She just doesn't excite people like the other candidates do.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
brush
(53,978 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
IronLionZion
(45,667 posts)she's still at 0% here
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Polly Hennessey
(6,817 posts)I saw her performance in Iowa. No excitement, nothing she said was truly meaningful, and, I agree, she is boooooring.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Thekaspervote
(32,823 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
bunny planet
(10,875 posts)if she also spoke out just as forcefully against Gym Jordan and Alex Azar.....especially in reference to Azar's illegal actions in protecting Jeffrey Epstein....who prayed upon underage women for decades....why no outspoken criticism of him Senator Gillibrand?....only such harsh words for your fellow Democrats with much less egregious and I might add suspect accusations, not for much more scurrilous and evil Republicans whose actions are proven.... I'll vote for her if she's the nominee, but I doubt she will be. For the record, I'm disappointed in Kamala and Bernie and Elizabeth not saying something about Azar too, although Gillibrand is the one who grandstands on this issue. These are glaring omissions in rhetorically speaking out for women.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)that seems like a strawman argument. Neither Jordan or Azar are Senators so it is a different situation. I'm sure if asked Harris, Warren, Sanders and Gillibrand would not say good things about either Jordan or Azar. But to require them to speak out about every person connected to some scandal is unreasonable.
At one time many here attacked Gillibrand for not calling on Trump to resign, but she has repeatedly done so:
https://www.cnn.com/2017/12/11/politics/trump-resign-gillibrand-sexual-assault/index.html
https://www.nystateofpolitics.com/2018/08/gillibrand-says-trump-should-resign/
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
bunny planet
(10,875 posts)I'm not saying respond to every scandal....but to ones that specifically relate to the same issues she says she cares so deeply about.....women and girls and their abuse in the military or any walk in life. I do think it's appropriate for her to respond to that particular scandal. The point especially being that she responded to something much less egregious that Franken was accused of.....and crickets on this.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)bar and then demonizing them for not reaching it. That is unfair. Again, I'm sure if any of them were asked the question directly they would not have kind words for either Jordan or Azar.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
bunny planet
(10,875 posts)Its hardly unfair to expect her to be as outspoken about a cabinet official as she is about her fellow Senators... and the Senate does have the job of confirming Cabinet Nominees... not unfair at all, since she has often portrayed herself as the candidate with the most focus on womens issues. This case, with Jeffrey Epstein is so completely grotesque, and such a stain on Azar in his present position and his former one as Florida AG btw, it is hardly a stretch to think that Gillibrand shouldnt need to be asked before she comments on it.... I can assure you the Republican Senators wouldnt need to be asked to weigh in if something as heinous had been done by a Democratically appointed Cabinet official.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)that is obligated to speak out on every single case and all others get a pass. That is a double standard. Why is Gillibrand obligated yo say something about a cabinet member who she already voted against. Sorry but it seems like youre setting a high bar in order to demonize.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)All called for Franken to resign the same morning as Gillibrand, some within minutes. Harris was the first to go on TV to call on Franken to resign.
Booker and Harris immediately benefited from Franken stepping down by gaining seats on the high profile Judiciary committee.
So the real question is why is Gillibrand the only one singled out for it?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
defacto7
(13,485 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
crazytown
(7,277 posts)She lead the pack.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)How so?
And she led the pack by mere minutes.
https://www.cnn.com/2017/12/06/politics/senators-al-franken-resignation/index.html
https://www.cnn.com/2017/12/06/politics/franken-gillibrand-resign-senate/index.html
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
crazytown
(7,277 posts)Ill go first, then you, and then you?
Not buying it but Im open to argument. How said there was a co-ordinated effort, on the record? Anyone?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)Do you have evidence to dispute them? Do you think that Harris, Sanders, Warren, Booker and over 30 other Senators were just blind followers of Gillibrand?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
crazytown
(7,277 posts)Whether the pile on was planned on not, Enough is Enough is Gillibrands I did not have sexual relations with that woman moment. Its what she will be remembered for.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)That was a press conference of several Senators which shows that it was a coordinated effort.
But the first Senator to go on TV to denounce Franken was Harris:
And she immediately benefited from gaining a seat on the Judiciary committee. So why is Harris being given a pass and Gillibrand being demonized?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
SFnomad
(3,473 posts)You could ask "Why is BS being given a pass and Gillibrand being demonized?" and you won't get a good answer to that one either.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
SFnomad
(3,473 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
aeromanKC
(3,331 posts)The Democratic field is too strong this cycle for a hold your nose candidate to win.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Starting around 11:30 a.m. ET, the senators posted statements in a coordinated effort, one after the other, on social media
And I need more than CNNs word in it.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Soxfan58
(3,479 posts)No support. She's on the bottom of the heap and will stay there.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
rzemanfl
(29,585 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)She's clearly a "ringleader" when it came to railroading Franken... but I just can't see her as "leader" of our nation.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
USALiberal
(10,877 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
USALiberal
(10,877 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
JDC
(10,152 posts)She is the only one with that "backing" - of all of the candidates listed.
Kinda says a lot.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Bradshaw3
(7,553 posts)Really, Al was one of the bullies in Washington who could snap his fingers and destroy people? Sheesh.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)and the very same morning as Gillibrand. Isn't it a double standard to give Warren a pass while demonizing Gillibrand?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)isn't necessarily fair nor does it always match up with the facts. Senator Gillibrand has been named the spearhead of getting Senator Franken to resign. She is stuck with that as it is unlikely the public perception will change. If the feeling was that it was better Senator Franken resigned she would benefit from that, but I think he has been viewed increasingly sympathetically since leaving office and her perceived first mover status is being held against her as a result.
Is it a double standard? I suppose it is. That won't help Senator Gillibrand though will it?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)But dont you think we all have a responsibility to call out perception when it doesnt reflect reality.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)it seems to me you have become Don Quixote. Unless I have missed something I don't think your campaign has changed anyone's mind on this situation. For me it would be a complete waste of time to try since I don't think she is a strong candidate and I don't think she is who I would like to see in the White House. If the general perception was that we are better off without Senator Franken she would have been the hero.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)But are saying that we shouldnt stand up for truth and fairness if its too hard?
I wonder what the world would be like today if people like Rosa Parks or Winston Churchill or Gandhi all felt the same way?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #80)
Post removed
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)a reason. She didn't weigh in on the veracity of the accusations, she just said, "I think he should resign". By the time she said that, he was already effectively keelhauled, and the GOP was attacking her for not speaking up.
Gillibrand, on the other hand, clearly took the position that Franken was guilty, and led the charge.
While I blame Warren for piling on, their actions are not comparable.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)who jumped on the bandwagon? And if she didnt believe the accusers, shouldnt she have said so and defended Franken? None of that speaks well for Warrens character if true.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)the double standard. Why are Bookrt, Harris, Sanders, Warren and over 30 other Senators given a pass , yet Gillibrand demonized?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)So , I think you're trying to draw a foul, and I'm not interested in playing. Have fun.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)the explanation. It doesnt make sense to me. Demonizing one person while giving a pass to other for doing the same thing is a double standard.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Mira
(22,382 posts)no matter what. I just could not do it.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
CrossingTheRubicon
(731 posts)The right thing is for him to resign. We are now at a crossroads in American culture. And it is an important one. The way we treat women in our country has been abysmal in almost every way. We are finally addressing the issue of sexual harassment, and we need to get it right. But the conversation we are having now is only the tip of the iceberg. It needs to be an ongoing movement of women and men that includes a national discussion about sexism, sexual harassment, objectification, inequality and abuse of power.
Announced, without irony, by Bernie Sanders
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Generic Brad
(14,276 posts)That move got her on the map, but maybe not for the right reasons.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
EveHammond13
(2,855 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
tblue37
(65,552 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cetacea
(7,367 posts)Last edited Sun Feb 24, 2019, 10:24 PM - Edit history (1)
And Bateson said that the only way to escape the untenable position of being in one is to "leave the field". Some people are stuck in double binds and cannot leave the field, eg, a woman with children living month to month and who is totally dependent on an abusive husband. A better example would be a child who is being abused by loved one he or she is dependent on. In a classic double-bind, even communication is a double-edged sword. A child cannot communicate the abuse to anyone.
Franken had no choice but to leave. It was his only choice, really, and the safest, health wise.
If he fought it, he'd be insulting the base for essentially implying that all women lie about matters like this. If he stayed on, there was a chance we'd have lost the Moore race and he'd be blamed for it. Dems would have been accused of double standards. Even resigning would make him appear guilty despite Dem leadership demanding it. He had to leave the field.
on edit: argggg! Franken
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cetacea
(7,367 posts)And the feedback.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Ive never neen a fan, really, but this seals it.
Shell be out after Iowa.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
pamdb
(1,333 posts)I hope she doesn't run because I don't want to vote for her.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Gothmog
(145,965 posts)She is way down on my list due to the Al Franken incident.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin
(108,485 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Awsi Dooger
(14,565 posts)The idea that she could run for president is about the worst instincts I can remember
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Guilded Lilly
(5,591 posts)a prominent Democratic donor, conservative political columnist or a bored man on the internet...
I dont like her and probably never will.
And I dont regret not supporting her for one moment.
I dont want her as our candidate.
And it isnt only about Al Franken.
I also know damned well she doesnt care about my already staunchly committed Democratic Party vote either.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
walkingman
(7,706 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
brooklynite
(95,011 posts)I suspect that even the average Democratic voter doesn't care particularly. Party advocates are not a significant share of the national electorate.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
walkingman
(7,706 posts)honest, stand up for their values, and do so with integrity. If you mean by "party advocates" those that represent the Democratic party....40% of all voters in party registration states are Democrats, 29% are Republicans, and 28% are independents.
I view independents as those that don't understand Party platforms or maybe ashamed to call themselves one party or the other. Really dumb because our political system is a 2-party system and it is virtually impossible to win any national election as an independent.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
brooklynite
(95,011 posts)In their viewpoint Al Franken left under a cloud and was replaced by Tina Smith who meets all those categories. Very few voters are dwelling on what Franken might have accomplished and what caused him to leave.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Indykatie
(3,697 posts)I certainly don't regret it.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
brooklynite
(95,011 posts)She announced a month ago. Polling today is largely built on name recognition.
Are you convinced that Sherrod Brown, Julian Castro, Eric Holder, John Hickenlooper and Steve Bullock are also concerned? Are Amy Klobuchar and Cory Booker "stuck" at 3% AND 4%?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
mn9driver
(4,431 posts)Um, no. Just no.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
pecosbob
(7,550 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
IluvPitties
(3,181 posts)You won't win.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)... it just reignites the seething anger I have. I'll never forget, and I'll never forgive the ringleader who railroaded Franken.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MustLoveBeagles
(11,687 posts)I won't forgive or forget either and it's not just because of Al Franken. She also stabbed the Clinton's in the back AFTER she benefited from their help. I haven't picked a favorite among the candidates yet but she is one of the few who wouldn't get my vote in the primary. If she wins the nomination I will vote for her but I don't see that happening.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)She doesn't have the "chops" or the demeanor that I'm personally looking for in a presidential candidate. Side by side with Harris, she comes off as being a bit mousy and reserved. Is that why she "overcompensated" when it came to Franken? Was she already planning a run for the presidency and simply needed an issue that she should manipulate? I don't know. It's possible I suppose, but difficult to say for certain.
All I'm saying is, anyone can be a ringleader... but it takes something else entirely different, something special, to be viewed as a true leader. She just doesn't "check-all-the-boxes" for me.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
brooklynite
(95,011 posts)...it distracts one from reality.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Eliot Rosewater
(31,151 posts)Money solves lots of problems.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)The fallacy relies on style over substance. It is an ad hominem attack, and thus an informal fallacy.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tone_argument
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)"You're cute when you're mad."
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Tarc
(10,478 posts)Been over this ground many times.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
USALiberal
(10,877 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
shanny
(6,709 posts)for her.
Road to nowhere.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Jarqui
(10,131 posts)I liked Al and don't care for how it all went down.
It turned me off Gillibrand.
I suppose I could forgive or look past it but with all the other good candidates, I don't have to in terms of the primary.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
brooklynite
(95,011 posts)...all of which joined Gillibrand in calling for Franken to step down?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Jarqui
(10,131 posts)She led the charge
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
brooklynite
(95,011 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Jarqui
(10,131 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
USALiberal
(10,877 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Ferrets are Cool
(21,117 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
NanceGreggs
(27,821 posts)What does that even mean?
Tweedon's story was blown out of the water within hours.
Another "credible witness" claimed that he grabbed her ass in front of her husband - AND a crowd of on-loookers in a public setting. (No such other witnesses to this alleged event have ever come forward.)
No women who Franken has worked with have ever spoken a word against him. Are we really supposed to find a woman who claimed "he touched her waist during a photo-op" credible?
Enough is enough all right. And if Gillibrand thinks she can ride this lame horse to the nomination, she's delusional.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
PatSeg
(47,770 posts)with the happy smile having her photo taken with Franken? On camera? And we're suppose to believe he was doing something inappropriate at that moment?
We know how republican operatives work, yet too many Democrats fell for this charade. Even worse, too many Democrats in the senate did not apologize for asking Franken to resign. Republicans know how to push our buttons and how we will react. They'll do it again in a heartbeat, we need to fortify our defenses.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
nolabear
(42,005 posts)She doesnt have any appeal for me whatsoever. Id take Kamala, Joe, Beto or Amy first.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
IronLionZion
(45,667 posts)no one will admit to supporting her candidacy for president
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)we missed a huge opportunity to twist the collective arm of the GOP into eating one of their own in the process...
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
beachbum bob
(10,437 posts)nothing more to say
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Sneederbunk
(14,319 posts)Disqualifying?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
crazytown
(7,277 posts)The QB carries the can. And, as she says, she regrets nothing. Shes proud of her work. Hundreds of women she says have come up and thanked her she says. Fine. She owns it. Period.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)Next question?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
hoosieib2
(20 posts)Wonder if this might be why she is polling at 1%
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
brooklynite
(95,011 posts)How about Amy Klobuchar, polling at only 3%?
If you don't support Gillibrand, no problem. If you're going to claim that the Franken situation has some impact on her campaign, please provide evidence.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Response to brooklynite (Reply #209)
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brooklynite
(95,011 posts)Out in the real world? I've seen no sign that this an issue on the minds of the average voters. (nb - I knew Franken's campaign team; never heard anything from them either)
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Response to brooklynite (Reply #211)
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brooklynite
(95,011 posts)...are, like DU, self-selecting groups of political activists and unrepresentative of the entirety of the Democratic electorate.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Response to brooklynite (Reply #213)
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brooklynite
(95,011 posts)...but one thing I DO claim is to take a strictly objective view of political data; it makes my funding and political decisions far more accurate.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Response to brooklynite (Reply #215)
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BlueTsunami2018
(3,513 posts)Nice how that works.
She has zero chance of winning the nomination so theres zero chance Ill ever vote for her.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)And that's all I'm gonna say.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=candidates
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
BlueMTexpat
(15,374 posts)among my preferred candidates. And now she never will be.
She seems to be an excellent Senator. She should continue being that.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
elfin
(6,262 posts)If she somehow wangles a Pres.or VP slot, I will vote for the ticket, but NO $ or signs or door to door etc.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
JCMach1
(27,591 posts)Kinda works both ways...
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Gothmog
(145,965 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Gothmog
(145,965 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden