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melm00se

(4,994 posts)
38. Short selling is legal
Fri Apr 19, 2024, 12:47 PM
Apr 19

"Naked" short selling is not.

Short selling confuses the hell out of me but here is the way it works:

With normal short selling, the investor borrowers X number of shares and then agrees to sell that number of shares to someone at $X per share at some point in the future.

IOW:

XYZ stock is trading at $10/share.
I agree to sell 5 shares to underpants at $10/share 6 months from now and underpants locks in that price by paying a fee per share.
As I don't own those shares, I have to have someway of getting access to them so I, for a fee, borrow them from someone else.
What I am hoping is that XYZ drops in price below $10 (+ my borrowing fee) so when underpants buys the shares I make money.
What underpants is hoping is that XYZ goes up so he can buy XYZ for $10 when it is trading at $15

Naked short sales are the same except that I don't have/didn't borrow the 5 shares of XYZ. What happens if I can't buy the 5 shares to deliver to underpants?

Now, 5 shares is not a huge deal but imagine if it was 100,000 shares involving hundreds (or thousands) of traders. This creates issues of

Fraud - in our example, a 10 basis point fee per share is $0.01/share, across a 100,000 share= $1000. If I offer this to 500 people and they bite and I don't deliver (but have already been paid) that is $500,000 gone *poof*.

Market manipulation - If I short sold XYZ at $10 and the price skyrocketed (legitimately) to $100/share, I am going to get my clock cleaned. So I might conspire with others like me to spread "news" that might cause the share price to drop.

Market volitivity - normal short selling (my borrowing shares) is recorded and the volume is built into the share price. With naked short selling, there is really no easy way to see how many shorts are out there so that is not built into the share price. When people come thundering it to cover their short sales, this can create artificial swings in share value.

I hope this made some sense. I really don't fully understand it myself which is why I run away from these types of transactions.

Projection. Wonder what foreign entities are riding the waves? /nt bucolic_frolic Apr 19 #1
Is shorting illegal or against the rules? underpants Apr 19 #2
I saw and scanned an article BumRushDaShow Apr 19 #6
Sounds like naked shorting is illegal Captain Zero Apr 19 #9
Yes, it is. paleotn Apr 19 #15
Well, naked short selling isn't really illegal, it's just that if you get caught, w/ the short underway, and the SWBTATTReg Apr 19 #39
trump does not need to understand the game rampartc Apr 19 #12
Nonsense. tRump is not "destroying wall st". Wall Street barely senses DJT trades. DJT is a tiny blip Bernardo de La Paz Apr 19 #19
do you think this blatant insider trading rampartc Apr 19 #57
Insider trading is not short selling or naked short selling. Stocks like DJT are nothing new. . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Apr 19 #58
Shorting is not illegal, but naked shorting is illegal Bernardo de La Paz Apr 19 #16
Thanks. I skipped a step but I learned something from you underpants Apr 19 #25
For years I have been trying to understand short selling rurallib Apr 19 #31
Yes, it's illegal. A type of fraud. paleotn Apr 19 #18
Thanks underpants Apr 19 #27
I was thinking the same thing TexasBushwhacker Apr 19 #22
See 16 & 18 underpants Apr 19 #26
Short selling is legal melm00se Apr 19 #38
Yesterday trump issued instructions to try to keep investors from short selling. captain queeg Apr 19 #3
in order to legally execute a short sale rampartc Apr 19 #13
Hahaha! "Wahhh! Their short selling is interfering with my pump and dump manipulation!" unblock Apr 19 #4
Yet more incessent whining. C_U_L8R Apr 19 #5
Trump whines more than anyone I've ever seen. Haggard Celine Apr 19 #44
Manipulation at it's best FredGarvin Apr 19 #7
Ha ha! CrispyQ Apr 19 #8
Yeah, I think that's a pretty safe bet PatSeg Apr 19 #14
I'm patiently waiting for Prince Bonesaw and russki Oligarchs (and gawd knows who else) to step in........ wolfie001 Apr 19 #10
Suddenly R/W media care about naked shorting. They only ever care when it helps them. Doodley Apr 19 #11
Down to 17.01 no_hypocrisy Apr 19 #17
Oh my. BumRushDaShow Apr 19 #20
My bad. Looking at DJTW. Wrong one. no_hypocrisy Apr 19 #21
Ah okay... BumRushDaShow Apr 19 #24
Where Did You See Tgat? ProfessorGAC Apr 19 #54
I made a mistake. Quoted DJTWW, not DJT. no_hypocrisy Apr 19 #55
Oh, Another Worthless Stock ProfessorGAC Apr 19 #56
Found what I was looking for! Looked for more definition about short selling Marthe48 Apr 19 #23
There was a movie out last year called "Dumb Money" FakeNoose Apr 19 #30
I skimmed through an explanation on Investopedia Marthe48 Apr 19 #32
It wasn't even 30 years ago - it was 3 years ago and I remember the wild stuff happening BumRushDaShow Apr 19 #33
OK thanks for correcting me FakeNoose Apr 19 #45
GameStop was probably around then BumRushDaShow Apr 19 #48
Yep, that's when I used to shop at GameStop FakeNoose Apr 19 #49
Yes BumRushDaShow Apr 19 #51
Okay... jmowreader Apr 19 #60
But didn't DJT also just file to dump an additional... Mawspam2 Apr 19 #28
This is srsly like a pimp complaining to the FBI... Hugin Apr 19 #29
Perfect Analogy! Captain Zero Apr 19 #34
+1 dalton99a Apr 19 #35
The quick answer is: hadEnuf Apr 19 #36
"sophisticated market participants profiting at the expense of retail investors" - sums up how the stock market works. PSPS Apr 19 #37
Exactly. The little guy/gal doesn't matter one wit. One is best off not dealing in this market, being that SWBTATTReg Apr 19 #40
Stock market scammers talk about "naked shorts" and DRS in order to fleece retail suckers mathematic Apr 19 #41
Thanks for this background info FakeNoose Apr 19 #46
Accuse with no facts. Very trumpian. ZonkerHarris Apr 19 #42
If a conservative is complaining about someone doing a crime, the odds are really good you already know who is doing it PurgedVoter Apr 19 #43
We've seen it too many times, it's one of Chump's favorite strategies FakeNoose Apr 19 #47
I figured something was going on. We shall see! Karma13612 Apr 19 #50
Everything this guy touches..every thing..chaos is not far behind Deuxcents Apr 19 #52
This absolutely needs to be fixed IbogaProject Apr 19 #53
The company is less than worthless. ThoughtCriminal Apr 19 #59
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