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2016 Postmortem

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DanTex

(20,709 posts)
Mon Aug 8, 2016, 08:55 PM Aug 2016

The Green Party deserves every last bit of the "bashing" that they are getting here. [View all]

I'm glad to see that so many progressives have learned the lesson of 2000. The Greens, whether it's Stein or Nader, are allies of the GOP. Period. Nader stated in no uncertain terms that he preferred Bush over Gore. And now Stein is running ads against Hillary in swing states (when she's not too busy attacking the US at events hosted by Putin).

And after 2000, nobody can argue that the Greens are irrelevant. It's not for nothing that the GOP helps them financially and runs ads on their behalf. No, they will never win any important election. Their platform is irrelevant, because they will never accomplish anything that it says. They aren't even trying to enact their platform. But in tight elections, they can give a decisive benefit to the GOP, as Nader did, and as Stein is trying to do now. As GOP allies, they are not irrelevant.

Those who are ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it, so goes the adage. And I'm proud that here on DU, and in the Democratic party, most of us are not ignorant of history. We haven't forgotten that Nader helped W get elected. And why should we? We also haven't forgotten Reaganomics and the whole supply-side garbage that led to so much economic injustice. And we haven't forgotten Jim Crow, we recognize that the latest push for voting restrictions is rooted in the same racism. We remember a lot of things.

It's too bad. Because the Greens could have been, in a parallel universe, a positive force in American politics. Support progressive candidates, raise important issues, pull the Dems to the left, but stick to safe states in presidential elections and don't deliberately try to help the GOP by trying to reduce Dem votes in swing states.

But that's not the way they went. They've gone full GOP. And it's doubly insulting that they are trying to co-opt the Bernie Sanders movement, a great resurgence of progressivism, and turn it into a political tool to help elect Donald Trump -- something which is diametrically opposed to Bernie's stated opinion and also his whole political history of being a pragmatic leftist.

I'm sure someone is going to chime in to complain about the "Green-bashing", but my opinion is: keep it coming. Whether it's Sarah Palin, or Rudy Giuliani, or Jill Stein, every Trump surrogate should get nothing but criticism on this progressive forum, or on any progressive forum.

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No argument here SCantiGOP Aug 2016 #1
Yep. They went full GOP bravenak Aug 2016 #2
Who got more Democratic votes in Florida... tonedevil Aug 2016 #3
The Swiftboat PAC in 2004 didn't get many votes either. DanTex Aug 2016 #7
Point out where I defended... tonedevil Aug 2016 #8
You defended Nader, denying that he pushed W to the presidency. Why? DanTex Aug 2016 #10
If that is defending to you... tonedevil Aug 2016 #12
Nader was a decisive factor. I have no love for Bush, of course, and I will criticize DanTex Aug 2016 #13
The first 10,000 tonedevil Aug 2016 #14
The vast majority of posts here attack Trump/Republicans. BzaDem Aug 2016 #57
Nader had nothing to do with Bush winning Florida. it baffles me that Exilednight Aug 2016 #63
Nader had everything to do with it. No Nader, and Gore wins. There's no denying that. DanTex Aug 2016 #78
If those people do not vote, how does it change Gore's vote count? Exilednight Aug 2016 #87
More to Gore than Bush, putting him over the top. DanTex Aug 2016 #93
There's NO PROOF that the Green party people would have even voted. Exilednight Aug 2016 #95
Not all of them, but enough to comfortably make the election SCOTUS-proof. DanTex Aug 2016 #97
DanTex that is an excellent and precise summary. May I have your permission to use it when needed? Maru Kitteh Aug 2016 #98
Thank you! Of course, yes, use it as you will, no credit necessary. DanTex Aug 2016 #99
8% of registered Democrats voted for Bush in 2000. Why blame Nader when Exilednight Aug 2016 #106
I blame them also. But Nader was a decisive factor, and had much more impact DanTex Aug 2016 #107
1 out of every 13 registered Democrats voted for Bush, and yet the Exilednight Aug 2016 #115
The blame goes to the person, Nader, who campaigned against Gore and intentionally DanTex Aug 2016 #116
My point is simple, Democrats don't scapegoat others for their failures. Exilednight Aug 2016 #119
It's not scapegoating, it's recognizing enemies and treating them as such. DanTex Aug 2016 #120
I have no problem with going after Stein on those issues. Exilednight Aug 2016 #121
It is a fact that Nader was a decisive factor in the 2000 campaign. He wasn't the only factor, DanTex Aug 2016 #122
He also lied about Gore. LisaM Aug 2016 #130
The Green are running ads in swing states Demsrule86 Aug 2016 #65
I've even seen a Stein ad once in Illinois. greatauntoftriplets Aug 2016 #82
Who is paying for this? nt Demsrule86 Aug 2016 #90
Unfortunately, I missed that part as I was rolling my eyes. greatauntoftriplets Aug 2016 #92
Well actually, we don't know yet who's paying for them. The ads are from her campaign, but Maru Kitteh Aug 2016 #101
Ralph Nader on Trump and Hillary: Downtown Hound Aug 2016 #4
He said that? SusanCalvin Aug 2016 #26
Especially when the "perfect" start praising Donald Freakin' Trump. n/t Maru Kitteh Aug 2016 #102
ok...that does it... the greens are assholes uponit7771 Aug 2016 #66
For me the question is are they spoilers? bluedye33139 Aug 2016 #5
Uh, that's not the definition of spoiler, to me. SusanCalvin Aug 2016 #28
Uh, fair enough bluedye33139 Aug 2016 #46
Running ads in swing states where a couple of points could make the difference Demsrule86 Aug 2016 #67
Yep. nt SusanCalvin Aug 2016 #79
Agreed rjsquirrel Aug 2016 #6
^this Democrats Ascendant Aug 2016 #15
Why Johnny2X2X Aug 2016 #9
As the polls stand now, they aren't a factor. DanTex Aug 2016 #11
I'm terrified right now. nt SusanCalvin Aug 2016 #34
Greens weren't supposed to be a factor in 2000, either. Were you around then? VOX Aug 2016 #16
Yep. SusanCalvin Aug 2016 #35
Yep. And that phoney war? Wilms Aug 2016 #38
I'm not sure if you're with me or against me, from this one post. SusanCalvin Aug 2016 #41
Mere speculation. chwaliszewski Aug 2016 #40
Wrong... StraightRazor Aug 2016 #52
Look at the threads on the first couple pages PatSeg Aug 2016 #19
They could be. And that must not happen. nt SusanCalvin Aug 2016 #29
Who does Putin love more? EricMaundry Aug 2016 #17
Kick... fleabiscuit Aug 2016 #18
So, let me get this straight . . FairWinds Aug 2016 #20
I was here for primaries and PatSeg Aug 2016 #21
What is this mysterious "GD" of which you speak, Kemos Havee ? FairWinds Aug 2016 #22
Oh, it is just the regular PatSeg Aug 2016 #44
I'll tell you why I'm even paying attention to third parties. SusanCalvin Aug 2016 #25
That part I understand Susan PatSeg Aug 2016 #45
Beware too of men who flatter with insincere praise, it's a bulling tactic to "keep little ladies Maru Kitteh Aug 2016 #105
Totally agree. SusanCalvin Aug 2016 #23
The continuing out of context and overwrought bashing of the Greens is effectively click bait. Ford_Prefect Aug 2016 #24
Totally agree with GOTV. SusanCalvin Aug 2016 #30
The point is not to waste energy on them, or turn us into one more hateful blog. Ford_Prefect Aug 2016 #37
I'm not willing to take the chance. SusanCalvin Aug 2016 #39
I gues then maybe the political whore Stein Demsrule86 Aug 2016 #71
I thought... tonedevil Aug 2016 #113
She is a political whore in that she sells Demsrule86 Aug 2016 #123
I thought... tonedevil Aug 2016 #124
I will not argue with you about this...she is green and a opponent and I can say what I want Demsrule86 Aug 2016 #125
As to the primary... tonedevil Aug 2016 #127
Right... Demsrule86 Aug 2016 #132
I don't think I said... tonedevil Aug 2016 #133
They deserve it and then some. SunSeeker Aug 2016 #27
They were actual GOP ratfuckers in Arizona in 2008 sweetloukillbot Aug 2016 #31
That is disgusting. SusanCalvin Aug 2016 #33
Here sweetloukillbot Aug 2016 #42
Thanks. Might you make this an OP? nt SusanCalvin Aug 2016 #48
Anything that has even the possibility of taking votes away from Hillary SusanCalvin Aug 2016 #32
We need to keep them out of our convention next time too! redstatebluegirl Aug 2016 #36
+1 uponit7771 Aug 2016 #70
When there's a post pointing out how well Clinton is doing, we're warned not to be complacent. betsuni Aug 2016 #43
Yep. That worries me. nt SusanCalvin Aug 2016 #49
And we hear how compromising with Republicans is evil. randome Aug 2016 #84
K&R Gothmog Aug 2016 #47
A Green post is a Libertarian post is a Republican post SwankyXomb Aug 2016 #50
Nader didn't cost Gore the election in 2000... StraightRazor Aug 2016 #51
Yes, he did. In his 95K Florida votes he took far more votes from progressives in Florida pnwmom Aug 2016 #58
So what you are saying is that progressives do not deserve to vote despite the Constitution? Ford_Prefect Aug 2016 #60
Overt strawman, no one is talking about right to vote its best choice for the country uponit7771 Aug 2016 #68
Yes he did...and the Greens bashed Gore for a year Demsrule86 Aug 2016 #72
Nader did not even support the Green platform when he ran bluedye33139 Aug 2016 #77
I agree. nt Demsrule86 Aug 2016 #91
If you think this is bullying, then you've never been bullied. athena Aug 2016 #88
You mistake concience for spoiled, prideful ego. Voting for 3rd party when you know vulnerable Maru Kitteh Aug 2016 #111
"We can disagree without being disagreeable" -- Barack Obama nt Gore1FL Aug 2016 #53
I dont' want to. Demsrule86 Aug 2016 #73
That doesn't mean calling them names and otherwise disparaging them is a good idea. Gore1FL Aug 2016 #75
A Green voter is a Trump voter, both deserving of the same. Maru Kitteh Aug 2016 #104
If they were a Trump voter they would be voting for Trump. Gore1FL Aug 2016 #109
537 votes separated Gore and * as per the certified vote count for FL. That Guy 888 Aug 2016 #54
Nader received 95K votes in Florida. If only 1 out of every 190 votes he got switched to Gore.... scheming daemons Aug 2016 #55
Gore certified the election results for FLORIDA That Guy 888 Aug 2016 #56
That is irrelevant to who was inaugurated. BzaDem Aug 2016 #59
They couldn't have done it without republican election fraud. That Guy 888 Aug 2016 #117
So what? Nader could have single-handed prevented Bush. He chose not to. n/t BzaDem Aug 2016 #118
Try reading the post instead of going for the easy DNC approved answer. n/t That Guy 888 Aug 2016 #131
He wouldn't have been put in that position except that Nader drew 95K votes after purposely pnwmom Aug 2016 #62
Is there any source of Nader crowing about this? I didn't come to a decision on Greens until uponit7771 Aug 2016 #69
I remember this press conference and how sickening it was to watch him. pnwmom Aug 2016 #103
Wow... this line says it all uponit7771 Aug 2016 #108
If they all stayed at home and didn't vote for down-ballot Democrats what would have happened? nt Gore1FL Aug 2016 #76
But Nader got 95,000 in Florida. Even with the hanging chads and other issues, pnwmom Aug 2016 #61
And Bush got nearly 350,000 Democratic votes. progressoid Aug 2016 #110
How about beating Gore up everyday for a year? Yeah that was the Greens and Nader. Demsrule86 Aug 2016 #74
That is exactly right Demsrule86 Aug 2016 #64
The Greenies are defending Nader and the 2000 election Gothmog Aug 2016 #80
Bravo rjsquirrel Aug 2016 #85
Amen. greatauntoftriplets Aug 2016 #81
I have zero respect for those grifters. joshcryer Aug 2016 #83
I pity the young ones, the naive and the simple who are fleeced of their money. I have Maru Kitteh Aug 2016 #114
K&R! stonecutter357 Aug 2016 #86
Some of them , I assume, are good people. n/t Orsino Aug 2016 #89
tl;dr Capt. Obvious Aug 2016 #94
I see the usual suspects showed up to tell us to "leave Jill alooooooooooneeeeee" Maru Kitteh Aug 2016 #96
K&R! DemonGoddess Aug 2016 #100
More fight club? Rex Aug 2016 #112
Post removed Post removed Aug 2016 #126
Hi, how's your summer been? uppityperson Aug 2016 #129
They're just a pack of Joe Lieberman's*, if you ask me. TonyPDX Aug 2016 #128
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