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BROWN: More on the Dean momentum, what it means for the other Democratic candidates. Peter Beinart joins us. He's with "The New Republic." He's in Washington tonight.

Peter, good to see you.

What does your instinct tell you? Does Howard Dean have legs in this?

PETER BEINART, "THE NEW REPUBLIC": Yes, I think he does.

For one thing, there's a hunger in American politics for authenticity. That transcends ideology. There are people who are so upset about politics that anyone who seems to say what he thinks has an advantage. And Dean does. Secondly, in a Washington-centered field, a governor has advantages, because Washington-centered politicians who are in Congress are always going to be seen as having made compromises and maybe not looking like leaders, in the way governors have -- governors can do. And those two things give Dean a big structural advantage.

BROWN: When you look at his record, his record as governor, he was governor a lot of times in Vermont. Is he as liberal as the war issue perhaps makes him seem?

BEINART: No.

He's actually -- on fiscal issues, in many ways, he's to the right of the field. He's more committed to a balanced budget than someone like Richard Gephardt, for instance. His health care plan is actually considerably smaller than Gephardt's. He's a real fiscal conservative.

In some ways, he reminds me a little bit of Paul Tsongas, that kind of Yankee, kind of flinty or Michael Dukakis tradition. It's on national security where his persona has become that of the candidate further left. And I think that's where he's vulnerable.

BROWN: Right. And there is this perception -- and talk to enough strategists and you come to believe it's real -- I do -- that the soccer mom, to some extent, has been replaced by the security mom and that security is going to be a huge issue. And that is a huge problem for Mr. Dean, Governor Dean, they believe.

BEINART: Yes. That's right.

People point to the fact that George W. Bush and Bill Clinton came into office as governors with no national security experience. But that was in an era where foreign policy and national security weren't preeminent, like they are now. And Dean, in a way, has exacerbated his problem, as someone who didn't work on national security, not only with his opposition to the war, but with a series of comments that seemed a bit flip, and now in association with the left of the Democratic Party, which doesn't seem to take the national security issue seriously. It's going to take him a lot, I think, to make up for that.

BROWN: A couple of other things. Do you think that the -- Karl Rove in the White House is just sort of chomping at the bit to get at Howard Dean, that he is their George McGovern, the candidate they would really like most to run against?

BEINART: Yes, I certainly think they think that. There's no question about it, because they think that Dean is completely out of touch with the South. And I think there is actually some reason to believe that he doesn't have the instinct for how you would win some of the states that Al Gore lost. So, yes, they think that he can be marginalized to a few states on the West Coast and the Northeast.

BROWN: He has an interesting message in the South, I think. He goes there and basically says, you all have been voting Republican for 30 years and look at it. Your schools are still not very good. You still have all the problems that you had all along. Maybe it's time to rethink this.

BEINART: Yes, that's right.

But, as either the "TIME" or "Newsweek" article pointed out, that can sound a little bit patronizing. And what Bill Clinton understood, I think, was, he had a way, a cultural way, of toning down some of the things that sound shrill south of the Mason-Dixon Line on cultural issues. Dean, even though he is actually not a big supporter of gun control, I'm not sure he'll be able to appeal culturally in the way that Democrats need to if they are going to win in Southern states.

BROWN: Well, all right since we've wandered off on that road, which of the Democrats can, then?

BEINART: Well, I think either -- probably the two with the best shot would be Edwards, because he obviously is a Southerner and was hawkish on the war, and Lieberman, because he's more religious. He feels comfortable with the language of faith. And I think -- so those would probably be the two with the best chance, I think.

BROWN: And where does this all leave John Kerry, then?

BEINART: Well, in an interesting place. The problem is that Kerry's base is, in some ways, the same as Dean's base. It tends to be on the left end of the party, amongst more highly educated, white voters. And the concern is that it's hard -- many people think it will be hard for this to come down to a Dean-Kerry race, because they have such similar bases and because they both need to win New Hampshire, in a sense.

So the fear for Kerry is, say he finishes behind Dean in Iowa, loses New Hampshire, then he could be out of the race and someone else emerges as the anti-Dean candidate.

BROWN: Peter, good to have you with us. Nice to see you again. Thank you.

BEINART: Nice to be back.

BROWN: Thank you, Peter Beinart of "The New Republic."


Sorry about the mistake in the name-- it was Beinart.

My point was that he was following the same tack as many who discount Dean (and others) regarding National Security.

I'm sure it's been done--but what Presidents have we had recently that actually had experience w/ National Security.

Bush I is the only one I can think of off the top of my head.

(Key word being recently--- If you use Ike-- you'll have to quote him about the military-industrial complex...)