Reply #29: Sure there is. [View All]

You just have to read it. I'll give you another chance to find where I discussed exiting teachers that shouldn't be in the classroom.

As for the rest,

If a teacher gets a bonus because the faculty, parents, students all like him/her, the structure of the class is educational and engaging, and he/she is clearly going an excellent job, is that a "political tool"?

I hope you are not suggesting merit pay based on a popularity contest. I would suggest that if the structure of the class is not educational, if there is some evidence that the teacher is not doing "an excellent job," that some of the other suggestions I made in that post kick in. That way, we're supporting EVERY teacher in improving their professional practice, and therefore supporting EVERY student.

Amidst all your rhetoric, I only found the following proposal which did what you said.

"admins can do things like reassign grade levels, duties, make up unbalanced class lists, etc.. to punish teachers already."

But they don't. In many cases unions fight tooth and nail against any of these things. Not all, but many. And teachers respond to that by being more bitter and taking their anger out on students.

1. That wasn't the mechanism for removing poor teachers. Those are mechanisms for political manipulation which are already in place.

2. Yes, admins sure as hell DO all of those things mentioned. Some local unions do a better job fighting than others, but if you think unions keep admins from doing their best to make professional life more uncomfortable for teachers that oppose them, I have to wonder what fantasy school administrations you have experience with.

I guess you did, because I saw plenty. Mind you, I saw plenty of excellent ones, but as far as the terrible ones went, there was a general consensus of students, parents and administration officials that removal was the best option, but for some reason the administration's hands were always tied.

I have seen them. I just haven't seen PLENTY of them. I'd have to point out here that to truly decide that a teacher is "shitty" and "abusive," you'd have to get a consensus. The reality is this: the best of teachers will find occasional parents that don't like them, that have a poor opinion of them, and that are willing to blame them for whatever poor experience their child had. The best of teachers will often find admins that it's hard to work for. A good teacher doesn't easily stomach policies that get in the way of helping students, and can find him/herself in the role of "thorn in the side." I hope you want teachers to oppose bad policy when it comes down the pipe.

This is also reality: not all teachers are the right "fit" for all students. Most teachers will have parents, peers, and admins who love what they are doing, and those who don't. Consensus on whether a teacher is poor enough to merit removal is not common.

For those who need to go, I've made a suggestion in the original post. I stand by that suggestion, and I'm open to others, as well. I think you'll find that most teachers SUPPORT the removal of teachers who lower the profession, the school, and the learning experience of students.

Easy. Factor teacher evaluations and PTA meetings into the process, and give the community a chance to get involved in who teaches their children.

I actually agree with some of this. I don't see where PTA meetings have anything to do with it. Teacher evaluations should. The problem is the structure of the evaluation process itself. I've experienced several different structures, and all of them were well-meant, but none of them really did the job. None really reflected the every day practice of teachers, and all were open to abuse.

I did work at a school that attempted to do some of what you were suggesting:

First of all, interviews for all positions, licensed, classified, and administrative, were conducted by a committee composed of, you guessed it, an admin, some teachers, parents, and classified staff. Candidates were discussed until consensus was reached, or, if there was no consensus, a vote was taken.

Evaluations were done informally by admins and peers. Informally, meaning no appointments with set objectives. The admin dropped in several times during the year, unannounced, took notes, asked questions, and conferenced with the teacher. So did a few peers. Then everybody got together to write up the evaluation, which focused on strengths and goals, and specific ways to achieve goals. Parents did not participate in the evaluations. However, this school had an open door policy. Any parent was welcome in any classroom at any time. They could come in and observe, participate, or offer to help.

This transparent climate made parents feel more welcome, and more a part of the process. If they had a question or concern, they were welcome to bring it up with the teacher involved, and the teacher didn't feel defensive. It was a true conversation where parent concerns and teacher pov could be aired with respect. Very few complaints ever went further. When they did, a committee made up like the interview committee addressed those concerns.

During the years this process was in place, there were 3 teachers that needed more than "improvement." You are correct in saying that there was no good way to do so. We were able to fire one, but that's because he lost a lawsuit about abuse, BROUGHT BY A PEER, in court. The other two were exited with poor evaluations. That didn't solve the problem, of course; they just got picked up by another school somewhere. That's why I suggest a mechanism to make a smooth, easy transition into some other profession entirely. Otherwise, you are just dumping the problem on someone else.

We all loved what we were doing. Families, teachers, admins; we were all unified. It didn't last, though. After about 5 years, the district office was very uncomfortable with that level of grassroots power. They replaced the admin with a top-down, my way is law and we're not doing this anymore kind of guy. Not coincidentally, our school went from being the most popular with families in the region to just another school people didn't trust. :shrug:

There has to be a balance, though, between the power to fire and protection from political manipulation. The political manipulation is real and active.

That brings me around to your first statement:

"Merit pay" isn't 100% of what I'd like (by the way, what he was proposing wasn't actually "merit pay" as you describe), but he calls for accountability where not many of the other candidates do. He gets brownie points for that.

I don't think Senator Obama was very clear about what kind of "merit pay" he was supporting; on the one hand, he said he wanted to base pay on test scores, and on the other, that he wouldn't use "arbitrary tests." Not exactly clear. Still, my point, and this thread, is not about Obama specifically.

Accountability? I absolutely agree that teachers, like the rest of the planet, can and should be accountable for the job that they do. It's what to use as the measure of accountability that gets so sticky. What are true objective measures? There is no consensus. Here are the measures of accountability that I suggest:

1. Is there evidence, in lesson plans, in observations, in assignments and classroom activities, that the teacher is teaching required curriculum?

2. Is there evidence that the teacher is using a variety of research-based strategies? I don't mean looking to see if the teacher is using the latest mandated strategy/corporate program to the exclusion of all else, or the latest strategy based on corporate research done by the company that wants to market their materials. I mean this: is the teacher using a wide variety of strategies that have been shown to help learners with a wide variety of strengths and needs? Is there something there for the auditory, the visual, the kinesthetic learner? Is there something there for the various intelligences as categorized by gardener? Is the teacher differentiating?

3. Is there evidence that students are treated with respect?

4. Is there evidence that classroom expectations are fair and reasonable?

5. Is there evidence that the teacher is responsive to parents?


If there is evidence of all of the above, then I believe that the teacher has met appropriate standards of accountability.