Reply #246: First I want to respond to the statements you made which troubled me. [View All]

"There are CERTAINLY problems in the industry. But many of those problems could be remedied if all the anti-porn feminists stopped treating adult workers like they are less human and less intelligent than other women. Anti-porn feminist demonization of sex workers contributes to their marginalization, which in turn contributes to their shitty working conditions."

"The third issue "the poor, drug addicted street girl" is ALWAYS just bandied about for rhetorical effect. Most anti-porn feminists have never talked to a stripper or a prostitute."

I find it ironic that women are going to war with one another - but isn't it convenient for the men involved? When I read the BS above it still chaps my hide. As I said it's crazy to reach out to people who are "anti-porn" and hold them accountable for a lack of industry standards. However I want to try and find some common ground as we both have some of the same issues with the industry.

"But with the unionization attempts I saw happen, no one helped at all, and many girls lives were destroyed. Most of these girls were intelligent, normal people, with a young child or two or saving for school. They had no issue with their jobs at all, except that conditions were deteriorating. What I mean by "conditions are deteriorating" is that they were forced to have more and more contact with the customers against their will. Well, they were laughed at in the press. They were blacklisted from all clubs in the tristate area. Their names were published in the paper so the customers could find them. After that debacle, the industry starting to decline in that state, stripping edged closer to coercive prostitution. I know that the girls reached out to mainstream feminist organizations and they were treated like a joke. Many times I've witnesses self-proclaimed anti-porn feminists say to sex workers, "well if you don't like the working conditions, you don't have to work there." You said something similar, in fact, in your first post. That sounds scarily similar to mothers of the past saying, "well if you don't want the attention then don't wear that short skirt." Or "If you dress like that, you get what you deserve."

I'm going to be frank, you cant demand to be treated like a non-victim and then claim to be one on the other hand. I make no apologies for saying "find another job." I worked for 7.50 when I was in my early 20's. I could have walked up the street from my apartment and took off my clothes for more money, I did not. I'm not any better than you, I just did not feel I'd care for the working conditions, and I did not want my work and sex life intertwined. I also did not feel that the industry was likely to be respectful of me. It just wasn't a consideration. Further, I've worked for assholes in a variety of positions, I sought new employment. When friends complain about their working conditions - no matter the employer, I suggest a new job. It has nothing to do with the work itself. That said, I am with the local wakeup walmart group. I've sold candy outside walmart to raise money for health insurance for walmart workers. It wasn't about raising the amount of money, but about raising awareness. I think if strippers/adult film actors want better working conditions you are going to have to organize and your going to have to be frank about how your mistreated. Workers who want better conditions and get them, are not afraid to appear victimized if that is the case. As I said, I'd LOVE to see an organized front. Your likely going to have to separate one industry from another to make this happen in an effective way?

An aside, I have horror stories about working in a bank as well. I knew a kid who worked in a local bank since he was in highschool. He was a teller who was in college at the time he was fired. One day he made mistake POOF he was gone, end of story. ONE mistake and he was history. Granted it was a big mistake, but he had a six year history with the bank that meant NADA.

"I think there a lot of ways to empower women in the sex industry (street prostitution aside, because I think it's a much more difficult issue) The first thing is to stop automatically assuming the workers are victims. When I was working as a dominatrix taking $3000 a night for beating rich guys, I didn't much feel like a victim. Domination, mainstream porn, and high-paid escorts don't really need anyone's help. The second thing would be to not assume the workers are NOT victims."

I don't care about money enough to say you were/weren't a victim if you made X amount. What matters is if YOU felt victimized. If you did not, then obviously you are not a victim. However, another consideration is how you might have been conditioned to feel that your value is of a sexual nature? I have an impression of most people who work in the industry as people who have been sexually abused, generally as children? Is that the case in your estimation? I feel that many women/men wouldn't even acknowledge that they were being victimized as they were conditioned to accept it? And, my thoughts don't don't just apply to the sex industry.

"When you're looking at improving the work conditions of anyone, you don't get into a big debate over whether or not the workers are victims of choice, or circumstance or whatever. You just find out about their working conditions and try to solve the problem."

That depends actually. Sex workers don't work for corporations that people with a conscience can boycott for example. I don't shop at walmart and I don't buy various products b/c I don't care for the conditions of the workers. I can't boycott a place I don't frequent KWIM? Also, in the sex industry it's hard to have an effective movement to improve conditions unless people like you are willing to speak out and not fear being labeled victims. You'd also have to be willing to pickett strip clubs that treat employees like shit. And, having an internet based discussion board where strippers could talk about working conditions and which clubs are good to work for vs. which are not, might be a start? At some point you are going to have to reach the actual customers though, if you want change IMHO. Money talks, picket, educate! ;)

"In fact, another good thing would be not to "censor" porn but start discussions around it. There will always be adult material, but the tone, attitude, and physical attributes of the players vary culturally. For example, from what I've read, in Italian culture, the market for BDSM is barely existent, where in Germany it is huge. In Italy, the men want to see women looking 'beautiful and carefree' and they want their porn to have a storyline. The example was "beautiful woman walking down the street drops her groceries, man helps her pick them up, their eyes meet, they have sex." I don't imagine that would be very popular in America."

I agree, censorship of legalized porn is impossible - dialog is not.

"My sense is that porn (particularly internet porn) in America follows the patterns of Fear Factor more than it follows the stirrings of the genitals of American men. It doesn't surprise me that "gross-out" porn is popular in America; our founders were puritans. And it doesn't shock me that every porn in America needs a gimmick, just like the big-budget special effects movies need gimmicks to sell tickets."

I don't think we can blame the puritans. But, I do think we can consider our media in general and the influence violence has on our society.

"Bayswan and SWOP are two good groups doing good work if you want to get involved."

I checked them out they don't appear organized in a manner that is effective?

This is interesting:

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/07/03/1088488197890.html

Australia has a strip tease association, I can't find one in the US?

Lastly, I'm not in "the industry" nor have I been obviously, so I don't know the ins and outs (no pun intended) ;) and as such it's difficult to make specific recommendations as to how to improve conditions. Not that you were reaching out to me for such recommendations ... :D That said, if one looks at history - awareness has been a huge motivator. Off the top I'd say American strippers need an alliance - adult film stars need their own alliance. Organizations such as these can be first a database as to what clubs/directors etc. treat workers fairly, and which ones should be avoided. The internet can be a powerful tool if used properly. I would encourage groups to reach out to the Jenna Jameson's frankly, she has been involved in various aspects, she has money and she has a national voice now. :shrug:

Peace - and if you ever arrange a picket in my area, let me know.

PS this discussion might be interesting in the feminism forum? Perhaps there can be some common ground sought?

sorry to ramble, I'm going on about 3 hours sleep today. I know that there are things we don't agree on, but we do agree that women/people deserve to be treated with dignity.

Edited to add please pardon spelling and grammatical errors. I'm to tired to be coherent.