Cuba claims Latin America's lowest infant mortality rate

Tuesday, January 04, 2005

Cuba claims Latin America's lowest infant mortality rate

1/3/2005

HAVANA, Jan 3 (AFP) - Cuba's infant mortality rate has fallen to less than six deaths per thousand babies born, the lowest in Latin America, according to government figures.

The figure of 5.8 deaths per thousand contrasts with the 37.3 per thousand infant deaths when Cuban leader Fidel Castro came to power in 1959, official newspaper Granma reported Monday.

In the last 12 months, 127,062 births were registered on the communist island. Some 735 infants died largely due to perinatal infection and congenital defects, according to the report.

Cuba puts strong emphasis on health and education. Its low infant mortality rate compares to eight percent in Costa Rica and Chile, according to UNICEF figures.
(snip/...)

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?ID=35572

Same article:
Cuba is among 36 countries worldwide with the lowest infant mortality rate, "despite being blockaded for more than four decades by the world's most powerful country," Granma said, in a jab at the United States. It noted that the US infant death rate is seven per thousand.

it's probably 8 per thousand.

but I see where the confusion originated:
http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/costarica.html

UNICEF's site doesn't caption the infant mortality rate with (per thousand), just a "rate".

<snip>

Costa Rica is blessed with a background of social, economic and political stability. It has the second best social indicators in all of Latin America: 76 years life expectancy for males; 95% literacy rate and a 1.3% infant mortality rate. This country’s economy is characterized by a controlled inflation and low unemployment rates.

<snip>

http://www.infocostarica.com/business/hightech.html

They have a democraticly elected government and socialized medicine and fair labor standards.

a few on this board fail to comprehend about Cuba.

Like the dictator Fulgencio Batista was democratically?

Let the figures tell us their story.

For the sake of time, I will outline just a few figures for Latin America as a whole as compared to Cuba.

- Illiteracy rate: Latin America, 11.7%; Cuba, 0.2%

- Inhabitants per teacher: Latin America, 98.4; Cuba, 43, in other words, 2.3 times as many teachers per capita

- Primary education enrollment ratio: Latin America, 92%; Cuba, 100%

- Secondary education enrollment ratio: Latin America, 52%; Cuba, 99.7%

- Primary school students reaching Fifth Grade: Latin America, 76%; Cuba, 100%

- Infant mortality per thousand live births: Latin America, 32; Cuba, 6.2

- Medical doctors per hundred thousand inhabitants: Latin America, 160; Cuba, 590

- Dentists per hundred thousand inhabitants: Latin America, 63; Cuba, 89

- Nurses per hundred thousand inhabitants: Latin America, 69; Cuba, 743

- Hospital beds per 100 thousand inhabitants: Latin America, 220;
Cuba, 631.6

- Medically attended births: Latin America, 86.5%; Cuba, 100%

- Life expectancy at birth: Latin America, 70 years; Cuba, 76 years

- Population between 15 and 49 years of age infected with HIV/AIDS: Latin America, 0.5%; Cuba, 0.05%

- Annual AIDS infection rate per million inhabitants, i.e. those who develop the disease: Latin America, 65.25; Cuba, 15.6

- The first international study of the Latin American Laboratory of Evaluation of educational quality, carried out in 12 Latin American countries including Cuba, produced the following results. Although these data have been already mentioned, I would like to briefly refer to them in detail:

- In Language, 3rd Grade: Cuba, 85.74 points; the remaining 11 countries, 59.11 points

- In Language, 4th Grade: Cuba, 87.25; the rest, 63.75

- In Mathematics, 3rd Grade: Cuba, 87.75; the rest, 58.31

- In Mathematics, 4th Grade: Cuba, 88.25; the rest, 62.04

What is or will be the future of those countries?

According to these figures, of the seven Latin American countries that voted against Cuba, four --Costa Rica, Chile, Argentina and Uruguay-- that had boasted in the past of being the most advanced in the region, fall well behind Cuban figures. In some of these, they reach or scrape past the half way mark in comparison to Cuba, but in others they are very well below. This is the case of pre-school education for 0-5 year olds, for example, that only reaches 15.8% of the children in that age group in Chile as compared to Cuba's 99.2%.

Here are the stats for Costa Rica which has a thriving democracy, free speech, cradle to grave health-care, and fair labor laws.


http://earthtrends.wri.org/text/population-health/country-profile-43.html

Why do you just repeat such derogatory nonsense?

Why do you continually demean the Cuban people?



http://www.gksoft.com/govt/en/cu.html

* Partido Comunista de Cuba (PCC) {Communist Party of Cuba}
* Partido Demócrata Cristiano de Cuba (PDC) {Christian Democratic Party of Cuba} - Oswaldo Paya's Catholic party
* Partido Solidaridad Democrática (PSD) {Democratic Solidarity Party}
* Partido Social Revolucionario Democrático Cubano {Cuban Social Revolutionary Democratic Party}
* Coordinadora Social Demócrata de Cuba (CSDC) {Social Democratic Coordination of Cuba}
* Unión Liberal Cubana {Cuban Liberal Union}

Plenty of info on this long thread,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=6300&forum=DCForumID70


http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.

--

Representative Fidel Castro was elected to the National Assembly as a representative of District #7 Santiago de Cuba.
He is one of the elected 607 representatives in the Cuban National Assembly. It is from that body that the head of state is nominated and then elected. Raul Castro, Carlos Large, and Ricardo Alarcon and others were among the nominated last year. President Castro has been elected to that position since 1976.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/do/Dorticos.html

Dorticós Torrado, Osvaldo

1919–83, president of Cuba (1959–76). A prosperous lawyer, he participated in Fidel Castro’s revolutionary movement and was imprisoned (1958). He escaped and fled to Mexico, returning to Cuba after Castro’s triumph (1959). As minister of laws (1959) he helped to formulate Cuban policies. He was appointed president in 1959. Intelligent and competent, he wielded considerable influence. In 1976 the Cuban government was reorganized, and Castro assumed the title of president; Dorticós was named a member of the council of state.

The Cuban government was reorganized (approved by popular vote) into a variant parliamentary system in 1976.

You can read a short version of the Cuban system here,
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.html

Or a long and detailed version here,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books

Cubans (especially the ones who live there) think of Castro.

By the way, why do you think people over there are defecting every chance they get?

CIA: Most Cubans loyal to homeland
Agency believes various ties to island bind the majority
By Robert Windrem
NBC NEWS PRODUCER

NEW YORK, April 12 <2000> — Cuban-American exile leaders — and many Republicans in Congress — believe that no Cuban, including Juan Miguel Gonzalez, could withstand the blandishments of a suburban American lifestyle, that he and all other Cubans would gladly trade their “miserable” lives in Cuba for the prosperity of the United States — if only given the chance. Witness House Minority Leader Dick Armey’s invitation to Gonzalez, offering him a tour of a local supermarket. But U.S. intelligence suggests otherwise.

THE CIA has long believed that while 1 million to 3 million Cubans would leave the island if they had the opportunity, the rest of the nation’s 11 million people would stay behind.

While an extraordinarily high number, there are still 8 million to 10 million Cubans happy to remain on the island.
(snip)

The CIA believes there are many reasons Cubans are content to remain in their homeland. Some don’t want to be separated from home, family and friends. Some fear they would never be able to return, and still others just fear change in general. Officials also say there is a reservoir of loyalty to Fidel Castro and, as in the case of Juan Miguel Gonzalez, to the Communist Party.
(snip)

There is no indication, U.S. officials say, of any nascent rebellion about to spill into the streets, no great outpouring of support for human rights activists in prison. In fact, there are fewer than 100 activists on the island and a support group of perhaps 1,000 more, according to U.S. officials.
(snip/...)

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ019.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The article passes over the crushing embargo, which can be expected.
The rest of the world's very familiar with it, and votes against the embargo yearly at the U.N. to condemn it, with only Israel (which does business with Cuba) and the Marshall Islands voting to support the U.S. position, usually. (Marshall Islands!)

The embargo idea, as a weapon, goes back all the way to 1897, when the following was written by the Undersecretary of War, John C. Breckenridge, on Christmas Eve (talk about sentimental! It almost makes you weepy.):

We must impose a harsh blockade so that hunger and its constant companion, disease, undermine the peaceful population and decimate the Cuban army.

http://www.historyofcuba.com/history/bmemo.htm

The Cuba now is nothing at all like it was then. I have been there many times in the past few years..and i love Cuba..and i am ever impressed with what Cuba has done to build the wonderful country that it is now. I do know this, that if i could live in Cuba, I would...and so many other Americans would also..if we had the choice. This will not happen until we are legally able to do so from the American perspective..able to do so legally..since we would have to give up so much to do so at this point in time. I, for example, would not be able to collect my social security retirement if i chose to live in Cuba...but the day will come..and, i promise you that when it does...there will be many, many thousands of Americans who will choose to go there and live..as American expats...and as those who will embrace the country..and be grateful to be allowed to live there. But..this Cuba i talk about is the Cuba today...and the Cuba you talk about is the one your mother remembers from so many years ago...and has so many, many bad feelings and memories associated with to this day...u have inherited those impressions..and that makes sense...but that is not the Cuba we talk about here today.

"By the way, why do you think people over there are defecting every chance they get?"


They don't. Of the over 20,000 annual immigration visas offered to Cubans by the USA (more than any other single nation), not all are applied for.

The Cubans who "defect" via smugglers go-fast speedboats, and the very few who use rafts, are those who have or would fail a US immigration visa application. BUT, the US's wet foot/dry foot policy and the US's Cuban Adjustment Act allow those illegal entrants to stay in the USA and receive a plethora of benefits (like an instant ID, work visa, drivers license, social security, welfare, medicare, medicaid, etc).

But maybe you could be so kind as to explain why at least one is holding its congress in Miami later this month, and only one of the party links is actually in *Cuba*?

There are many more political parties in Cuba. Cuba's internet bandwidth is limited, so some of their parties use extranational ISPs for foreign consumption.

It also is an indicator that Cuba has ("Castro" allows - lol) a diverse range of political expression within the nation state.. including some that are "in exile".

and Mussolini's getting the trains running on time, while old and somewhat outdated phrases, seem to be in order here.

Wasn't it * who wished that he were a dictator because it would be so much easier to get things done.

http://www.buzzflash.com/analysis/2002/10/29_Dictator.html

It takes a nation of committed people to make happen what Cuba has made happen.

Isn't it about time we look at, and consider, the works of all of the Cuban people instead of Castro did this & Castro did that?

Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro Castro Castro Castro Castro Castro Castro Castro Castro Castro Castro Castro Castro Castro Castro Castro Castro Castro



Its sickening to have heard almost nothing but the above mantra from the US government and the ex Cuban (primarily the Batistanos) propagandists.

comparing Mussolini's trains with health care, I am saying that it is easier to do what one wants when you can incarcerate, intimidate, and kill your opposition. There was more to my post than that.

Just make me the Emperor of America and we will have the best of everything. In short, we will lead the entire planet in every statistic that there is to measure a society.

However, you probably wouldn’t want to live here—I know that I wouldn’t.

regarding infant mortality is "socialized medicine" - common to both cuba and costa rica, regardless of politics.

They show Costa Rica having 10.26 infant deaths per 1,000 births, and Cuba with 6.45 in this list from their World Factbook.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html

Food Security in Cuba
by Sinan Koont


Sinan Koont teaches economics and is coordinator of Latin American Studies at Dickinson College in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. He thanks numerous friends and colleagues in the United States and Cuba for their helpful comments on previous drafts of this article.

In 1996, Via Campesina, the recently formed international umbrella organization of grassroots peasant groups, introduced the term “food sovereignty”: the right of peoples and states to democratically decide their own food and agricultural policies and to produce needed foods in their own territories in a manner reinforcing the cultural values of the people while protecting the environment.

A related but distinct concept of “food security” has been defined by the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) to include, among other aspects: (1) the production of adequate food supplies; (2) stability in the flow of these supplies; and (3) secure access, both physical and economic, to available supplies for those in need of them. Recently, Cuba, unlike most other countries in the world, has had to grapple with these questions under circumstances that would try most people’s souls.

In the Caribbean, neither the history of colonial domination, including slavery and monoculture agriculture based on export crops, nor the climate, tropical and unsuitable for feed-grain production, allow for the easy satisfaction of food needs with local production. This has been made more difficult by the post-1990 disintegration of the Soviet Union, which resulted in the collapse of Cuban exports and imports and the loss of the preferential terms of trade of Cuban sugar for Soviet oil. In addition, during this time there has been a tighter U.S. blockade and increasing U.S. hostility. This is the “periodo especial” (special period) announced by Fidel Castro in 1990. By 1993, as Cuban production and imports plummeted, the daily intake of the average Cuban citizen had descended to 1863 kilocalories, including 46 grams of protein and 26 grams of fat, all figures well below FAO recommended minimums for a healthy diet.

It was obvious that something had to be done, and a rapid increase in imports of foodstuffs or inputs to food production was out of the question. The bywords for food security, by necessity, had to be self-reliance and, to the extent possible, self-sufficiency: a tall order for any Caribbean economy, and doubly so for an economy under a hostile blockade by a powerful neighbor.
(snip/...)

http://www.monthlyreview.org/0104koont.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



5 year old article on "organiponicos:"
http://www.dal.ca/~dp/reports/ztaboulchanas/taboulchanasst.html



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

More about Cuban "organiponicos:"

Green guerrillas
In the face of desperate urban food shortages Cubans have been
encouraged to grow their own - organically.


....Jorge and his neighbours got help from Havana’s Urban Agriculture Department, part of a program which began in January 1991 to encourage city-dwellers to grow their own food. In addition to these huertos populares (popular gardens), the Government has cleared the way for an impressive system of larger organic gardens called organoponicos. Sometimes these are run by the State (the Cuban military has dozens of them), sometimes they’re connected to a particular workplace and used to funnel vegetables directly to the employees. And at times they operate as self-financing small businesses. Organoponicos tend to be larger than the private gardens and are run with meticulous care.

My guide this morning, Manuel Gonsalvez, is an extension worker from the Urban Agriculture Department. He is an energetic 38-year-old with a tooth-brush moustache and a backward baseball cap. One of his main tasks is to show people how to garden without chemicals.

Jorge complains to him that his peppers, tomatoes and cucumbers are being devoured by pests. Manuel listens, then explains what can be done. ‘By planting a mixture of plants (some Spanish oregano here, some marigolds there) around the food crops you use nature to your advantage. You end up with a biological struggle, a system of good bugs and bad bugs which create an equilibrium.’
(snip/...)

http://www.newint.org/issue301/green.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


a Havana market

Here's a brief, sketchy report by a student on a Spring Break trip she took to Cuba with schoolmates. Any awkwardness or confusion you may see in her report is probably due to her inexperience, no doubt, and lack of actual information on Cuba prior to her visit. (So many of us have had NOTHING but rumors and intentionally misleading propaganda to live on all our lives!) I just discovered it in a search:

We started our trip in Havana, the capital of Cuba. Walking around the streets and markets, it was hard to take in all the sites, smells and sounds of Cuba. People gathered in doorways, sitting on steps. Little girls dancing in the street. Boys playing stick ball with small bats and tennis balls. Open doorways and windows to apartments with Spanish guitar music and smells of Cuban food floating outside. "Hey friend, where you from? Taxi? Cigars?" from every third person. And of course the cloud of "psst psst" from the local men to the women in our group.

It was many times easy to forget we were in a "Third World" country. The main streets were relatively litter-free. Beggars were not as prominent, needy or persistent as other countries some of the students had visited. In a country with guaranteed housing and no homelessness to speak of, free health care and education and low division between family incomes, problems that normally plague a Third World country are relatively low. Over the next few days, we saw some of these socialist guarantees up close. We talked to an administrator at one of the top hospitals in the country who explained the medical system. It is largely preventive rather than purely curative and insures a physician for each Cuban family. The administrator expressed the ill-effects of the U.S. embargo on the system, such as the shortage of some medical supplies and pharmaceuticals. Any technology made with over 15% of American parts are banned from Cuba, and American medical journals must travel around the world before they reach Cuba.
(snip)

Second off, as outsiders, we grew to assume that the people were more paranoid about the rules than necessary. Many Cubans we talked to felt constrained because they were not free to travel outside the country, were required to show their ID to any policeman who randomly asked them for it on the street and were not supposed to talk against the government, at least not publicly. But yet, we heard reports that people do travel easily and do openly speak their mind. Ironically, the "illegal" interaction between us Americans and the Cubans was what made the trip come alive. Whether we were getting fed in the Cuban homes in Havana, being talked into buying their goods in the streets or getting schemed into buying them rum after they showed us a night hang-out spot overlooking the city, bonds formed despite our governmental conflicts.


At the end of the CDR meeting in Pinare del Rio, the children walked around handing us their addresses and retrieving ours. A boy I had quickly became friends with invited me into his parentÆs house. His family ran from room to room offering me food, a place to sit, a chance to watch their TV. I couldn’t help but feel uncomfortable and suspected that they wanted money or American goods in return for their kindness. I quickly left the house and returned to the party. After we had left the meeting and I reflected over the experience, I realized maybe it was my own country rather than his that had made me feel uncomfortable around this misjudged boy in his misunderstood land.
(snip/)

http://www.sid-vienna.org/CUBA/CUBA_report.html

Despite its poor economy, Cuba's education record is outstanding. This can be attributed to a number of factors, including: the continuity in its education strategies; sustained high levels of investments in education; and a comprehensive and carefully structured system. Some of Cuba's accomplishments include:

• Universal school enrollment and attendance
  
• A 98% adult literacy rate
  
• A strong scientific training base, particularly in chemistry and medicine
  
• Consistent pedagogical quality across widely dispersed classrooms
  
• Equality of basic educational opportunity, even in both rural and urban impoverished areas1

In comparison with other Latin American countries, Cuba consistently ranks higher on several measures, including:

• More women have access to higher education and are enrolled in post-secondary institutions in Cuba than in any other nation in Latin America
  
• Cuban students outperform other students in Latin America in math, science, and literacy
  (snip/...)

http://www.gse.harvard.edu/news/features/cuba04012002.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~In 1961 Cuba's President Fidel Castro told the United Nations: "Cuba will be the first country in the Americas to be able to decide to eliminate illiteracy in just a few months." Eleven months later 707,212 people had learned to read and had written letters to President Castro to prove it and say thank you. All these letters are bound and collected at the Museum of Literacy in Havana. Alphabetizing (which means both teaching someone to read and learning to read), we will win, was the main slogan.

The idea was that only with higher literacy and education levels would the revolution, now creating a new government and a new society, be able to solve Cuba's social problems. "No creer, leer!" was the message: don't just believe, read! More than 100,000 young people, mostly teens, some younger, formed the core of 268,000 literacy teachers. The youngest was 7, shown below in his uniform and in his literacy campaign ID card.



These young people went to live with families in order to teach them to read. The families were mostly poor peasants; the teachers, urbanites. The teachers learned as much as the students. The entire country was organized around the literacy effort, from building roads to devising and publishing textbooks, from public health to international relations. For instance: there was a sudden need for eye exams, and then eyeglasses. China supplied a lantern for each teacher, since the teaching took place after the day's work.



With the Bay of Pigs U.S. invasion that same year, several young teachers and their students were killed in acts of war and sabotage. There were many adjustments and additional people who joined in the campaign as it was not easy and the months were going by. But by December 1961 the campaign had succeeded, and a huge celebration was held in Revolution Square featuring many gigantic pencils waving in the air.

The two campaign textbooks, one a teachers' guide, linked reading to the issues facing Cuba. The very first word taught was OEA (OAS, the Organization of American States). This taught vowels and international political reality at the same time.
(snip/...)http://www.communitytechnology.org/cuba/photos.html

On edit: It appears the photos I tried to post aren't coming through. They are located within the link immediately above this message.
I love the photo of the new readers waving giant pencils.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There are some interesting photos and remarks at the bottom of page #7, and on page #8 at this site, concerning the Cuban literacy program implemented right after their revolution in order to get the entire country able to read (a vast change from the time prior to 1959):

http://www.unbrokenchain.com/cuba/Page6.html

in the hemisphere. Put simply, contrary to myth, Cuba puts her people first.

then why do so many Cubans risk life and limb to come to America? Could it be that they want a chance to have freedoms which they don't have in Cuba? Could it be the chance to try and improve their standard of living? Just asking.

as in the relatively small number of Cubans attempting extra-legal immigraion to the US compared to the hordes of Central and South Americans from so-called free non-communist countries attempting the same.

The primary factor of Cuban poverty is US policy.

They somehow forget the hundreds of people from Latin America who try to cross into the U.S. across the US/Mexican border from California to Texas, and die in the desert and the mountains and in the water. Their families surely don't forget!

They also forget the hundreds of people who drown trying to get from Haiti to anywhere, from the Dominican Republic to Puerto Rico in ancient or rickety boats, and the fact that there are also other Latin Americans who try to enter by boat, as well.

Just imagine what would happen if the U.S. offered the same deal to any of these others which is offered to every Cuban who makes it to our shores, under the Wet Foot/Dry Foot law, the Cuban Adjustment Act which offers free instant legal status upon arrival, instant work visa, Section 8 (US taxpayer funded) housing, food stamps, welfare, medical services, financial aid for education, low-cost loans, etc., etc. ETC.

Everyone else gets chased down, thrown in jail, and deported if caught. Sweet deal, isn't it? This includes the Haitians who have tried so hard to flee the bloodbath in Haiti. _Bush sent U.S. ships to surround Haiti and catch everyone trying to escape and they sent them right back into the murderous butchery in Haiti _Bush initiated last year.

"refugees fleeing the US and it's repressive policies" annually, but
those statistics don't seem to be collected.

...I'd like to see the statistics such as infant mortality, health care, education, etc...broken down in america per class, region, income, etc.

I have no evidence to back this up, but I suspect (hypothesis really) that the standard of living in the U.S., if you make above a certain amount of money, is the highest in the world. I'm not talking about a 20 million dollar range here, I'm talking more like maybe 100-200k. Not a TON of money, but enough to live in a good school district, pay for any health care needs you have, and then have any of the additional things we get ina developed country from cars to internet connections, to high quality sushi.

The standard of living numbers for the U.S. of course drop when you drag in the majority of americans. It's the famous 'median' versus 'average' argument.

So while the average cuban has a lower infant mortality rate than the average american, the lack of 'freedom' in a sort of higher philosophical sense, and the promise of the possibility of more, is what brings people to this country legally and illegally.

Unfortunately many people who come here aren't able to make enough moeny to raise their standard of living much over where they came from.

Thoughts?

who try are fooling themselves. Last time I checked, tens of thousands of Americans weren't killing themselves to leave the island. Last time I checked, the US didn't have the same hombre running the country since 1959. Last time I checked, the US has elections.

There are plenty of people leaving Cuba because they don't have that elusive quality of 'freedom'. I get it. I'd probably leave too.

I'm just saying that when people talk about 'quality of life' issues and compare the U.S. average with another nation's, particularly one as class flat (not totally class flat, but far more so than the U.S.) as Cuba with one as class divergent as the U.S. it obscures the reasons people come to the U.S.

In essence, i'm asking whether the standard of living for a rich, or even moderately well off person in the U.S. is far above the U.S. average and THAT is also what is bringing people here, from Cuba and Mexico and elsewhere. People think they can be a millionare and have the best life in the world, but in reality they rarely ever do.

Basically I was just asking if this U.S. 'upper class' standard of living is the highest in the world when separated from the rest of us ugly american masses.

Why are so many Americans in prison? :shrug:

always be "children of darkness", everywhere, who can never comes to terms with the Judaeo-Christian axiom, that God made this world and its bounty for the benefit of all his children, not just the most worldly and avaricious. Just answering you, Bluzmann57.

I agree. Look what the govt. is doing in Cuba against it's own people who dare speak out. If this was America, we would be revolting. This is the patriot act x's 1,000.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=535&ncid=535&e=18&u=/ap/20041224/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/cuba_dissidents_1

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

to Cuba to visit and vacation year after year, before _Bush cut them down to one visit every three years?

From the outgoing President of the World Bank, who studied Cuba's particular situation in depth:

Learn from Cuba, Says World Bank
By Jim Lobe
Inter Press Service
April 30, 2001

WASHINGTON -- World Bank President James Wolfensohn Monday extolled the Communist government of President Fidel Castro for doing "a great job" in providing for the social welfare of the Cuban people. His remarks followed Sunday's publication of the Bank's 2001 edition of 'World Development Indicators' (WDI), which showed Cuba as topping virtually all other poor countries in health and education statistics. It also showed that Havana has actually improved its performance in both areas despite the continuation of the US trade embargo against it and the end of Soviet aid and subsidies for the Caribbean island more than ten years ago.

"Cuba has done a great job on education and health," Wolfensohn told reporters at the conclusion of the annual spring meetings of the Bank and the International Monetary Fund (IMF). "They have done a good job, and it does not embarrass me to admit it." His remarks reflect a growing appreciation in the Bank for Cuba's social record, despite recognition that Havana's economic policies are virtually the antithesis of the "Washington Consensus", the neo-liberal orthodoxy that has dominated the Bank's policy advice and its controversial structural adjustment programmes (SAPs) for most of the last 20 years. Some senior Bank officers, however, go so far as to suggest that other developing countries should take a very close look at Cuba's performance. "It is in some sense almost an anti-model," according to Eric Swanson, the programme manager for the Bank's Development Data Group, which compiled the WDI, a tome of almost 400 pages covering scores of economic, social, and environmental indicators. Indeed, Cuba is living proof in many ways that the Bank's dictum that economic growth is a precondition for improving the lives of the poor is over-stated, if not downright wrong.

The Bank has insisted for the past decade that improving the lives of the poor was its core mission. Besides North Korea, Cuba is the one developing country which, since 1960, has never received the slightest assistance, either in advice or in aid, from the Bank. It is not even a member, which means that Bank officers cannot travel to the island on official business. The island's economy, which suffered devastating losses in production after the Soviet Union withdrew its aid, especially its oil supplies, a decade ago, has yet to fully recover. Annual economic growth, fuelled in part by a growing tourism industry and limited foreign investment, has been halting and, for the most part, anemic. Moreover, its economic policies are generally anathema to the Bank. The government controls virtually the entire economy, permitting private entrepreneurs the tiniest of spaces.

It heavily subsidizes virtually all staples and commodities; its currency is not convertible to anything. It retains tight control over all foreign investment, and often changes the rules abruptly and for political reasons. At the same time, however, its record of social achievement has not only been sustained; it's been enhanced, according to the WDI. It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations.

It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank's Vice President for Development Policy who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999; Chile's was down to ten; and Costa Rica, 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999. Similarly, the mortality rate for children under five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50 percent lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba's achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999. "Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable," according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. "You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area."
(snip/...)

http://www.foodfirst.org/cuba/news/2001/wb-ips.html

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who met Elián when he went to Cuba on vacation, and stayed in Elián's dad's bedroom, while the father slept in his car, and went fishing during the days, and hung out at the Cuban hotel bars at night?

I seriously doubt that drunk had a lot of cash on hand to give them so they wouldn't "starve."

Here's something interesting written by Ann Louise Bardach, former New York Times writer who made trip after trip to Cuba and Miami doing research, concerning the traffic between the two places.

From her book, Cuba Confidential: Love and Vengeange in Miami and Havana:

But there has been a slow but steady shift in the last decade-a nod to the clear majority of Cubans en exilio and on the island who crave family reunification. Since 1978, more than one million airline tickets have been sold for flights from Miami to Havana. Faced with the brisk and continuous traffic between Miami and Havana, hard-liners on both sides have opted to deny the new reality. Anomalies such as the phenomenon of reverse balseros, Cubans who, unable to adapt to the pressures and bustle of entrepreneurial Miami, return to the island, or gusañeros, expatriates who send a portion of their earnings home in exchange for unfettered travel back and forth to Cuba (the term is a curious Cuban hybrid of gusano and compañero,or comrade) are unacknowledged by both sides, as are those who live in semi-exilio, returning home to Cuba for long holidays.
(snip)

Page xviii, Preface
Cuba Confidential
Published in 2002.

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I lived there, but don't remember it. - Bono71


Silly you.

But you do.

You have consistantly made false claims against the Cuban people and their government. It is they who have gone to (and through) great pains to build a better, fairer, and more representative system. And they did so. The US government has tried to thwart almost every effort, with much help from uninformed propagandist ex Cubans.

Silly you.. you admittedly don't know much about the place and have said that you refuse to go there to see until a 78yr old figurehead dies.

I think you have no idea what you are talking about.

Let's leave it at we disagree.

Get yer facts straight (since you don't know much about the place).



http://www.bartleby.com/65/do/Dorticos.html

Dorticós Torrado, Osvaldo

1919–83, president of Cuba (1959–76). A prosperous lawyer, he participated in Fidel Castro’s revolutionary movement and was imprisoned (1958). He escaped and fled to Mexico, returning to Cuba after Castro’s triumph (1959). As minister of laws (1959) he helped to formulate Cuban policies. He was appointed president in 1959. Intelligent and competent, he wielded considerable influence. In 1976 the Cuban government was reorganized, and Castro assumed the title of president; Dorticós was named a member of the council of state.

Mickey Mouse?

This book goes into great detail on how Cuba went from revolution to democracy - by the works of thousands of Cubans, whom you belittle by ignoring their efforts and good works for and of all of the Cuban people in Cuba.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books



Its just too damned easy to focus on one man (a la Goldstein in Orwell's 1984), isn't it? Its a little more demanding to learn the truth.

the people that Fidel is not a dictator.

Including witnessing the entire 1987 88 election season.

I have spent some time IN Cuba learning what is there NOW!

there...I ain't going back, call me a coward but it isn't happeneing.

My brother is going back, however.

.. by the US government. Its a terrible thing for both of us.

It hasn't detered my faith in the good people of the USA.

concerning Cuba and 'desaparecidos'...My step father has been to Cuba a number of times, and while he does say that people there do not have the right to go hungry...compared to the rest of the non-tourist Caribbean and Latin America, Cuba is doing better than it should..

That is a pretty crappy way of stating a position...much like "cause I said so"...:wtf:...if you are goping to argue a point...make it a habit to include sources...and primary sources at that...

message board...

Nothing I write will suffice and vice versa.

:eyes:

If Castro said Cubans walk on water, the Cuban paper would print it as fact.

Your fine Americans papers printed a whole of horseshit as fact just because Prezzadernt Bush done said it - you know, mobile bio-weapons labs, Saddam's nuclear programs - need I go on.

You should be careful what you chuck when you live in a glass house.

_Bush tried to jam into our State Department, over the objections of decent people!

Here's a quick look at his skills:

The former top official in the Reagan regime, buddy of the most fanatical anti-Cuba terrorists and now--incredibly-- the number one man for Latin America in the U.S. administration, he has personally and clearly masterminded the subversive plans that have just failed in Caracas.

Recruited by the CIA while he was still in the university, Reich was a specialist in deception during the Reagan administration. Reagan's vice president, George Bush was a former operative and then head of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA).

From his Office of Public Diplomacy, Reich covered up all the dirtiest operations of the war in Nicaragua, circulating false information through the media.

When the narco-contra scandal--poorly named the Iran-Contra scandal-- blew open with the discovery of drug trafficking operations managed by Cuban-American terrorists Felix Rodriguez and Luis Posada Carriles, Reagan was forced to remove him from the White House.
(snip/...)

http://www.counterpunch.org/allard0420.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

He did nothing BUT spin obnoxious lies to further the interests of his Republican President.



Makes you skin crawl.

I know the creature.

I heard this joke in Cuba -


During his visit to Cuba, the Pope and Prez Castro were strolling and talking along the Malecon - when a gust of wind blew the Pope's hat off of his head and onto the bay. Quickly Prez Castro jumped down the sea wall and walked across the water to retrieve the Pontif's hat and returned it to His Holiness.

The next day the Miami Herald's featured headline was CASTRO CAN'T SWIM!

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cu.html

total: 6.45 deaths/1,000 live births
male: 7.25 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 5.6 deaths/1,000 live births (2004 est.)

versus the United States:

total: 6.63 deaths/1,000 live births
male: 7.31 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 5.91 deaths/1,000 live births (2004 est.)

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html

But, you never know!

the Caribbean and a kindly, benevolent ruler as well. Ah well, learn new things everyday I guess.

If you have something serious, something connected to real information, go ahead and post it.

Most of us are a little too busy for childish games.

I don't think there's a lot you learn any day.

that too much to ask?

James Cason's goons are "political" to Cuba as Al Queda is to America.

Don't know if you've seen it. It's taken from a Presbyterian publication, I believe, referring to the imprisonment of the "dissidents," and the execution of the armed hijackers (who were holding knives to the throats of hostages, if my memory serves me correctly, based on testimony by witnesses):

On April 23, church leaders responded to the international furor with an open
letter to churches around the world. The Rev. Reinerio Arce-Valentmn, a
Presbyterian who serves as president of the Cuban Council of Churches, was
one of 23 signatories.

In the letter, the religious leaders expressed opposition to the death
penalty and disagreement with some of their government's actions. But they
also expressed grave concern for the "security" and "integrity" of their
nation in light of the U.S. threat. They also voiced fear that the war with
Iraq could be a prelude to U.S. aggression against Cuba.

"We believe that we find ourselves in a moment of serious threat for the
security and integrity of our nation," they wrote. "We also
believe that what is intended is to find pretexts to launch another war of
aggression."

They promised to honor their evangelical directive to provide spiritual
counseling to imprisoned dissidents and condemned the U.S. government for
financing, supporting and protecting opposition groups inside Cuba > activity
they claim has increased under the direction of James Cason, the top U.S.
diplomat in Cuba. The U.S. government disputes the charge.

"Throughout 40-plus years this kind of thing has happened every once is a
while with people who have been used by the CIA , for example," Dopico said.
"So basically, people in my congregation saw it as just another example of
people  working with the U.S. and profiting from it."

Jiminez, who leads a Presbyterian Reformed congregation in central Cuba, said
his country must be wary of outside influences. "I think as Cubans we need to
defend our country," he said. "We don't want Americans or Europeans coming
here and saying what we need to do."
(snip/...)

http://www.wfn.org/2003/12/msg00044.html

They are in a far grimmer situation than anybody Fidel has in jail.

:eyes:

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As I remember the people who got arrested recently were paid by the US government to create chaos and anti Castro movements in Cuba. I think we call that kind of people for spies, here in the US.

the "Miami Five" for whatever "dissident" not funded by the United States...sounds fair to me...

What do you think that is about?
Do Americans just "choose crime" more than in other countries, or is
something else going on?

They seem to have done a great job in this area. I do wonder, though, how the US statistics are affected by so-called "crack babies" and by those older people who use fertility drugs, and are more likely to have complications during pregnancy. I had heard that Cuba doesn't have nearly the illegal drug problem that the US does, and I know that the use of fertility drugs is far more widespread in the US than Cuba. I'm not sure what the overall effect on the US infant mortality rate is, so if anyone has any information on this, I'd love to hear it. I've done some web-searching, but haven't really found any helpful statistics.

mortality rate. They are pure evil!

They must be destroyed!

The US has a terrible infant mortality rate among industrialized nations. Part of it has to do with high risk pregnancies continuing due to medical intervention when they probably should have aborted spontaniously, then the baby dying after birth.

A lot of people believe that high-tech isn't always the best way to go in labor & delivery, either, believing that the more intervention you get, the more you will probably need. I have to wonder if midwives are used alot in Cuba.

So I'm not surprised that a nation like Cuba, with limited availability of fertility treatment, etc, has a lower infant mortality rate. This statistic certainly doesn't make me want to move to Cuba.

DU's fixation with Cuba. WTF?


DownNotOut

email my congressman about it. Cuba is an utter non-factor.


DownNotOut

to try to drop the travel ban, and eventually both the travel ban and the embargo are going to go.

Published on Wednesday, October 31, 2001
'Cuba Project' Secrets Worthy of Frankenstein
by David Winkler

"Cuba has the same effect on American administrations that the full moon used to have on werewolves..."
-- Wayne Smith, former head of U.S. Interest Section in Havana.

One of the casualties of the September 11 terrorist attacks is Rep. Jeff Flake's courageous bid to end the ban on travel to Cuba by Americans. Right now, U.S. citizens who visit the island and spend more than $10 can be fined $55,000 by their own government.

In the wake of the Elian Gonzalez affair, "I think a lot of people saw that the Cuban-American community was just over the top," Flake told the Associated Press on September 10 following a three-day visit to the island.

Flake predicted that Americans could freely travel to Cuba by the end of this year. But in the wake of the terrorist attacks, Flake's amendment to the Treasury appropriations bill was shelved as "divisive."

You might say that U.S. policy toward Cuba was itself hijacked by terrorists. It is a familiar story, dating back to the late fifties, when Vice President Richard Nixon played the role of Victor Frankenstein in creating a monster in south Florida.
(snip/...)

http://www.commondreams.org/views01/1031-07.htm

to the capitalists. It is an example of what a non-capitalist state can do even when it is being harassed endlessly by capitalist bullies.

Just think of what Cuba could be like without the hostility from the US.

Maybe we (read: the US gov) should give it a try.



Viva Cuba!

It consisted largely of reading newspapers and giving reports in the target language. The teacher was an immigrant from a country where the language was spoken; he spoke excellent English, since that was one of his majors--not by choice, his other major was the national language. They allowed him to attend the classes for his other major, but there was no doubt where he would be assigned upon graduation.

He'd get into fights with people who claimed that his knowledge of his home country for 40 years was defective. It was great there; he was bitter, and wasn't a reliable witness. Fortunately the people that argued with him dwindled to a small number of students and socialists; fights in the classroom were unseemly. He loved his country, but hated the government.

My class occurred when massive changes were taking place in the country. The teacher would sometimes charge to the front of the room and rip the photocopied news articles from the student's hands, lecture us on the *real* news behind what was being reported (frequently not that the event occurred, but that the article occurred).

Only once did he cry. The student was discussing a report in the country's main newspaper ... dealing with suicide rates. The teacher leaped to the front of the room, read the article, and delivered his lecture on why the article was important. He said he knew the changes were real and substantive. He sat down in the corner and sobbed; a close relative of his died in a "car accident" by slitting his wrists in the bathtub, and the family was threatened if they said what had happened to him, and they would lose his pension.

You see, until then, for decades, the rather large country had no reported suicides. Zip. You see, only unhappy or mentally ill people committed suicide, and in the perfect political system with the perfect health care system, there could be no unhappy people. Therefore my teacher's relative simply could not have committed suicide.

:hi:

I think some of the right-wing Miami "exile" gusanitos hope to do their best work when they think the D.U.'ers who have been to Cuba are away from their computers!

Funny, huh?



"El Quijote de la Farola"

Taken when the people of Cuba travelled to a celebration of the revolution, in Havana. The man climbed the pole to get the best view.




This photo was taken, as you undoubtedly knew already, by Alberto Korda, who also took this one, and NEVER took a cent of profit for any of the many, many uses people had for the image.

:hi:


As one of the DUers you've mentioned.. I couldn't sit at the PC today.. first weeks of the year are always busy. I know you'd love the Arnold August book on the 97-98 elections, partly because it has some great vintage and new photos of Cuba & Cubans in it.