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U.S. Military Personnel Growing Critical of the War in Iraq

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NNN0LHI

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Wed Jan-19-05 01:56 AM
Original message

U.S. Military Personnel Growing Critical of the War in Iraq

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/17/international/europe/17spiegel.html

US military officials are becoming increasingly vocal in their criticism of the war in Iraq, telling Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld that more troops are needed to prevail over the insurgents. Moreover, recruitment is down and more reservists and members of the National Guard are being sent to Baghdad.

The war is over, at least as far as Darrell Anderson is concerned. Anderson, a 22-year-old GI from Lexington, Kentucky, deserted a week ago, heading across the US' loosely controlled border with Canada. When his fellow soldiers in the First US Tank Division, stationed in Hessen, Germany, ship out to Iraq for their second tour of duty, he'll be in Canada.

Anderson spent seven months in Iraq last year as a part of a unit assigned the dangerous mission of guarding police stations in Baghdad. He was wounded by grenade shrapnel during an insurgent attack, was awarded the Purple Heart and allowed to spend Christmas at home in the United States. But instead of returning to duty, Anderson fled to Toronto.

Now he's a deserter and a warrant has been issued for his arrest. If apprehended, he faces several years in a US military prison. In justifying his desertion, Anderson says: "I can't go back to this war. I don't want to kill innocent people." He talks about the constant pressure soldiers face to make decisions in the daily grind of war. Once, when a car came too close to their Baghdad checkpoint, his commanding officer ordered him to shoot, even though Anderson could only make out a man and children in the vehicle. The soldier refused. "Next time you shoot," his commanding officer barked.

more

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DeepModem Mom

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Wed Jan-19-05 02:20 AM
Response to Original message

1. More -- "revolt within the ranks" --

"A revolt seems to be taking place within the ranks. Even though daily bomb attacks in Iraq and the latest death toll of 1,361 US soldiers have yet to trigger any significant reversal in US public opinion, and even though President Bush reiterated last week that the world is a safer place without Saddam Hussein, Bush's soldiers and officers seem increasingly convinced that the opposite is true. Almost without warning, America's armed forces, superior to any of the world's other militaries but faced with severe personnel shortages, are suddenly encountering almost insurmountable obstacles -- politically, strategically and financially."

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BeHereNow

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Wed Jan-19-05 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #1

30. And the BFEE is rattling sabres at IRAN?

They are completely out of touch with reality.
The wagon is on fire, the wheels are coming off and
still they think they can expand their battlefield to IRAN?
Them and WHAT army?
Completely nuts.
BHN

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jokerman93

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Wed Jan-19-05 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #30

34. This is precisely

Edited on Wed Jan-19-05 10:17 PM by jokerman93

This is precisely my dilemma with this Iraq/Terror war debacle. It is obvious to the world the wheels are coming off, and now they're literally promising an expansion of the war(s).

They either have a huge pattern interrupt of some kind planned, or they're really a bunch of lunatics.

Neither possibility appeals to me.

My guess is the Neocon Church of Global Dominion is about to start preaching it's gospel doctrines throughout the media and we'll be expected to be converted by a new vision of America. As far as mass control goes, this would be an ideal time for an unexpected crisis to soften us up for the Bush gospel - again.

edit: grammar

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Barkley

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Wed Jan-19-05 02:28 AM
Response to Original message

2. Good News: Resistance to the war is growing.

Edited on Wed Jan-19-05 02:32 AM by Barkley

Mr. Anderson refused to kill innocent people -- that's not a crime
that's just common sense.

If that had been American lives spared, he'd be a hero!

He will need healing from the damaged done by the violence of this war.

I just hope he doesn't feel alone or isolated because some 9000
DUers are all with him.

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NYC

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Wed Jan-19-05 02:51 AM
Response to Reply #2

5. The Quakers in Canada will support him.

I'm glad he spoke out.

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cascadiance

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Wed Jan-19-05 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #2

19. How can anyone face prison time for not wanting to see scenes like this!

Also from the NY Times here. Warning to those here. This pic won't make you feel good if you violent pictures upset you.

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2005/01/19/international/19iraq.ready.html

Bush, no regrets? I think he's the one that belongs in prison, not that poor guy trying to preserve his sanity.

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spooked

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Wed Jan-19-05 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #19

23. HOW HORRIFYING!! We just MURDERED this little girl's parents!

FOR WHAT REASON on Tuesday did we destroy a family
the bond of their sacred unity severed
husband and wife in love murdered
and their little girl all alone in this cruel world

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jayfish

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Wed Jan-19-05 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #23

26. There Were Actually Five Children.

Come here to discuss.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2972157&mesg_id=2972157&page=

Jay

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NVMojo

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Thu Jan-20-05 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #23

37. if there is a god, god helps us all ...we are doomed ....

while this administration controls this nation ....and ours....

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The_Casual_Observer

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Wed Jan-19-05 02:32 AM
Response to Original message

3. "more troops are needed to prevail over the insurgents"

When will they ever learn

When will they ever learn

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Barkley

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Wed Jan-19-05 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #3

4. Q: 'when will they learn?'

Edited on Wed Jan-19-05 02:58 AM by Barkley

A: the answer my friend is blowin' in the wind, the answer is blowin' in the wind.

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w4rma

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Wed Jan-19-05 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #4

12. I never understood that line of the song.

I understand he's probably refering to the United States Flag, but I don't know in what way he refers to the United States Flag.

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obiwan

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Fri Jan-21-05 06:54 AM
Response to Reply #12

46. That song line means that no one knows the answer.

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jazzjunkysue

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Wed Jan-19-05 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #4

33. I've been waiting to hear that. I remember it from when I was little.

I've been singing it to myself for 2 years.

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jayfish

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Wed Jan-19-05 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #3

29. Critical For All Of The Wrong Reasons.

If we only had enough troops to kill them all Mr. Bush, Sir.

Jay

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Horse with no Name

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Thu Jan-20-05 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #3

38. Where have all the flowers gone?

words and music by Pete Seeger

Where have all the flowers gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the flowers gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the flowers gone?
Girls have picked them every one
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?

Where have all the young girls gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the young girls gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the young girls gone?
Taken husbands every one
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?

Where have all the young men gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the young men gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the young men gone?
Gone for soldiers every one
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?

Where have all the soldiers gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the soldiers gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the soldiers gone?
Gone to graveyards every one
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?

Where have all the graveyards gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the graveyards gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the graveyards gone?
Covered with flowers every one
When will we ever learn?
When will we ever learn?

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Stand and Fight

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Wed Jan-19-05 03:14 AM
Response to Original message

6. As a recent ex-soldier....

I am superbly glad to hear that the resistance to this idiotic and unjust war is growing. Best of luck to Darrell Anderson, and I hope that it turns out to be the 1960s and 70s all over again!

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Zeke

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Wed Jan-19-05 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #6

17. Wow.

That article is amazing. It's like the water is about to spill over the dam and break the dam.

I'm glad you survived a stint in Bush Inc's military.

I'm glad you're alive.

"Live. Live damn it!" --- George Costanza

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DUBYASCREWEDUS

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Wed Jan-19-05 09:29 AM
Response to Original message

7. WHERE ARE THE FLOWERS?

Didn't our fearless leader and his band of incompetents tell us they would be showering our troops with flowers? Didn't one of the bobbleheads just say on some Fox News show that things were going well in Iraq and that the people were looking forward to elections? Do these people live in a parallel world or planet separate from the rest of us? Someone tell me that WE are not the crazies here.

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Redstone

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Wed Jan-19-05 09:37 AM
Response to Original message

8. "Next time you shoot," his commanding officer barked.

When do you suppose the fraggings will start?

The officers over there would be well-advised to rein back on the gung-ho right about now. Unhappy troops can't concentrate well and sometimes make mistakes in the heat and confusion of combat...

Redstone

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ckramer

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Wed Jan-19-05 09:41 AM
Response to Original message

9. Critical? "We'll ask you of more!"

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4dsc

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Wed Jan-19-05 09:54 AM
Response to Original message

10. Why not more active duty troops??

Why aren't there more active duty troops in Iraq?? I heard a report that stated there are 30 active duty troops in the US for every Guard or reserve troop in Iraq..

why isn't the regular army doing more in Iraq versus reserves??

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w4rma

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Wed Jan-19-05 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #10

14. Reserves more likely to be Democratic-leaning? (nt)

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all american girl

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Wed Jan-19-05 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #10

21. Active duty soldiers also have other requirements that need to be filled.

There are schools they have to go, otherwise you can't get promoted. There are jobs that need to be filled...congressionaly mandated. There are those who are training and educating the new soldiers. There are many other jobs in the Army that has to be filled. Let's face it, they need more bodies to put in Iraq. Man, that did not come out right...people.

Also, the # of reserves and Nat'l guard are about the same as the # of active duty soldiers...least wise I think...

I'm new to this...I love the spell check :D

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flygal

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Wed Jan-19-05 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #21

24. Welcome All American Girl

:hi:
Yeah - the spell check catches quite a few for me!

You know, I never thought about the promotions for regular army. I had a friend over there for only 3 months and couldn't figure out why - he did just get promoted - hmmmmm.

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Horse with no Name

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Thu Jan-20-05 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #10

40. I hope I can explain it correctly

At least this is the way it was explained to me--I hope it is correct.
Our military has a 3:1 ratio--for every 1 soldier deployed there has to be 3 stateside.
The reason is for national disasters, natural disasters, and to replace field casualties.
The reserves don't count in the 3:1--just full time enlisted soldiers--so they are basically freebies that the government doesn't have to back up at home.
If they were not using them as a backdoor draft...we would definitely have to have a front door draft.

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Mizmoon

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Wed Jan-19-05 10:00 AM
Response to Original message

11. These guys would have voted for Kerry

if the man would have simply announced that his victory would mean a pull-out.

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spanone

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Wed Jan-19-05 10:05 AM
Response to Original message

13. It's about freakin' time....

Last night on CBS News they did a story on re-deployment of troops to Iraq. One soldiers wife said on camera, "we went to get Saddam Hussein and we got him, then we went to get WMD's and they weren't there". Her point being, why the hell is my husband going back? The tide IS turning.

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spacedog

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Wed Jan-19-05 10:08 AM
Response to Original message

15. Oust Rumsfeld Petition

Got this email from the Kerry camp this morning. I am not sure if this is the appropriate forum to post it or even if it's already made its way around but here goes:

<snip>

In the Senate, we have a duty during times like these to hold our Defense Department accountable for the well-being of our troops. It's one of the ways that our democracy makes our military the strongest in the world. And I can't tell you how comforting it is as a soldier to know even if you don't have a say over your own situation, the folks back home do.

<snip>

please join me in my call for President Bush to fire Donald Rumsfeld. He's the man responsible for the well-being of our troops. He's neglected his duty. He's made excuses. It's time for him to go.

Add your voice to mine in the Senate in calling for President Bush to replace Rumsfeld today.

http://www.johnkerry.com/replacerumsfeld

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DeepModem Mom

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Thu Jan-20-05 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #15

42. Welcome to DU, spacedog! This effort must be Kerry's response...

to the situation described in the NYT article. I'm assuming he's well aware of the crisis developing within our military, and is calling for Rumsfeld, at least, to be held responsible, and for something to be done.

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Massachusetts

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Wed Jan-19-05 10:33 AM
Response to Original message

16. The real George figured it out a long time ago.

"The Army (considering the irritable state it is in, its suffering and composition) is a dangerous instrument to play with".

George Washington, letter to Alexander Hamilton, April 4, 1783

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Zeke

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Wed Jan-19-05 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #16

18. Man Alive!

Jesus Palamino!

That article is so full of truth it made me happy to hear the truth but sad to hear it, as well.

You get the feeling the USA is "that close" to falling apart?

Bush is a Jonah and needs to be thrown overboard!

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callous taoboy

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Wed Jan-19-05 11:41 AM
Response to Original message

20. When are the U.S. workers going to start

being more vocal about our SHITTY work conditions?

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all american girl

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Wed Jan-19-05 01:51 PM
Response to Original message

22. Where are all the repubs...do your patriotic duty, man.

What I don't understand, and I know everyone asks this, where all those Bush supporters. Why aren't they signing up and doing their patriotic duty. This really pisses me off.

I read an article that ole Bushie boy told a bunch of soldiers that there was a lot of sacrifices to still be made...or something like that. There were some who had be injured in Iraq. Why doesn't he send Jenna over there, I hear she's having problems getting a job...

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XemaSab

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Wed Jan-19-05 02:09 PM
Response to Original message

25. Yesterday Condi said

"The Iraqis are fighting for their freedom."

How true that is....

Unfortunately for her, they're fighting for their freedom FROM US.

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Supersedeas

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Fri Jan-21-05 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #25

47. certain democratic principles are beyond her understanding, take Chavez

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hector459

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Wed Jan-19-05 02:49 PM
Response to Original message

27. I smell a revolt among the military taking root. While we fear attacks

by "terrorists" it may be our own military that attacks this administration. This illegal war is taking its toll on solid American families. If I were a mother or spouse of a dead soldier, I would come to Washington, DC just to spit on the sidewalk in front of Bush. I think I would have tried to attend the hearings just spit in front of Condi. These smug bastards make me absolutely sick.

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Memekiller

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Wed Jan-19-05 03:49 PM
Response to Original message

28. I have only one question...

...who did Anderson vote for?

If it was Bush, he gets no sympathy. I can't tell you how many people with family over there re-elected this guy. Apparently they've got no problem with what's going on over there.

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manly

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Wed Jan-19-05 06:02 PM
Response to Original message

31. Military personnel getting restless

Edited on Wed Jan-19-05 06:09 PM by manly

Okay, just think about this.
Bush the Moron and Rumsfeld the Idiot determine(whenever) that the Iraqi armed forces are capable of defending their country from the insurgents(terrorists), and pull out.
The Iraqi armed forces hold for about a week, and then desert, disappear, go home, or join the insurgents(terrorists).

Then what?

Obviously there's no one in the Bush camp who can think three steps ahead, so let's do it for them, and present them with this hypothetical situation, which is quite likely to happen. When it does, I ask again... what do we do then?
Can we learn from history? Look how successful the Vietnamization program was.Let's not try it again.
Do we go back and just bomb everybody?
Do we just abandon the country, give it up to the terrorists? They may be terrorists but, after all, it IS their country.
Maybe we should out-source it, hire Iran to go in and do the job? Or Halliburton?
I certainly don't know the answer but I do know it's going to be one hell of a god-awful mess.
Anybody have a good idea out there?
And thank you, George, for getting our country into this fucking mess, you moron. You lied to us all and we ended up with this.
Enjoy your $40,000,000. masturbation, you sleazy scumbag, and your Kind o'Sleazy Rice, too.

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BeHereNow

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Wed Jan-19-05 06:02 PM
Response to Original message

32. Kicking

because this article should give everyone hope.
No troops, no wars.
BHN

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MaineYooper

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Thu Jan-20-05 12:22 AM
Response to Original message

35. kick

Interesting that this is actually a report from a German magazine, Der Spiegel.

So apparently, the Times didn't have their own reporters on the story, but at least they had the kahonas to pick up this story and run it when it became available.

Now, if they'll just start running more stories from the Guardian, too.

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SKKY

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Thu Jan-20-05 12:25 AM
Response to Original message

36. We certainly are.

Critical, tired, sick, and overall pretty fuckin' non-plussed about the whole mess.

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MADem

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Thu Jan-20-05 12:38 AM
Response to Original message

39. This is an IMPORTANT STORY!!!!!

And it bears out what I have been saying for some time. The military thinks the weecowboy is an idiot, that he does not understand the role of the military, that he does not take any counsel with the people who actually have to prosecute a war, and that he is totally out of touch with any reality on the ground, plus, he just does not give a shit about the lives of his all volunteer force.

What this story also says is that a draft will be fraught--I say again, FRAUGHT--with total disaster. These kids who do not want to go back, who think this is screwed up, plus their VERY senior military leadership, are GRIPING. These are VOLUNTEERS, they are patriots who wanted to defend their country--no one forced them to join, but they joined with an understanding that their mission would be to secure the blessings of liberty, not kill children. They aren't doing what they signed up to do, and they are speaking out. These are highly trained, very disciplined, very motivated kids...not disgruntled draftees who do not want to serve.

If he's lost the AVF, he may as well go back to the "ranch" and "clear brush." He has FAILED.

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cascadiance

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Thu Jan-20-05 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #39

41. If the draft comes back...

The Republicans will be very disturbed at how suddenly our younger generation "becomes gay" overnight... They won't even have to put an act on like Klinger did:

Deciding on whether to get rid of "Don't ask, Don't Tell" rules will be another big decision on their plate...

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ET Awful

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Thu Jan-20-05 07:42 AM
Response to Original message

43. Attention all people who defend the Abu Ghraib soldiers as somehow

less guilty because they were following orders, etc. See the reference to Anderson above and how he refused an order when he considered it to be unlawful? That is what those at Abu Ghraib should have done.

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Rose Siding

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Thu Jan-20-05 08:45 AM
Response to Original message

44. Go MOMS!!!

"It's the mothers who are warning their kids about going to war," complains Sergeant Kevin Hudgins, a Tennessee recruiter. :yourock:

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obiwan

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Fri Jan-21-05 06:52 AM
Response to Original message

45. Maybe the troops would mellow out...

...If they quit getting their asses shot off because some sociopath in the White House won't admit he made a mistake.

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