US torturing Camp X-ray prisoners

<snip>

The US military has tortured terrorist suspects held without charge at the Guantanamo Bay military prison, an Australian lawyer representing some of the suspects claimed today.

“They are engaging in good old-fashioned torture, as people would have understood it in the Dark Ages,” he said.

Bourke told ABC radio in Australia that his claims were based on reports leaked by US military personnel and from descriptions by some detainees.

“One of the detainees had described being taken out and tied to a post and having rubber bullets fired at them. They were being made to kneel in the sun until they collapsed,” he said.

more:


http://www.breakingnews.ie/2003/10/08/story116469.html

like a lot of people on this site probuably i have a neighbour who just came home from a tour at gitmo, straight from the horses mouth so to speak, the worst thing they go through is eating those god awful breakfast cereal crap, eggs and bacon for me.

are you talking about the MUSLIM captives?

that HE would prefer eggs and bacon over cereal. NO one is claiming that the Muslim prisoners are being forced to eat the tastiest of God's animals.

Lawyers Furious as US Builds (Gitmo) Death Chambers

LAWYERS expressed outrage yesterday at plans to put al-Qaeda suspects, including two Britons and an Australian, on military trial in Guantanamo Bay.

They would effectively be tried by a “kangaroo court”, stripped of all basic rights of due process that would be afforded in criminal courts in Britain or America, they said.
…
He said: “The construction of execution chambers makes virtually every lawyer in the Western world extremely angry. The idea that there is an artificial creation or enclave which, according to the Americans, is beyond the purview of all recognised systems of law is repugnant.”
…
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0705-05.htm
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=8201&forum=DCForumID71

The Courier Mail: US Plans Death Camp (May 26, 2003)
THE US has floated plans to turn Guantanamo Bay into a death camp, with its own death row and execution chamber.

Prisoners would be tried, convicted and executed without leaving its boundaries, without a jury and without right of appeal, The Mail on Sunday newspaper reported yesterday.

The plans were revealed by Major-General Geoffrey Miller, who is in charge of 680 suspects from 43 countries, including two Australians.
…
“This camp was created to execute people. The administration has no interest in long-term prison sentences for people it regards as hard-core terrorists.”
…
http://www.thecouriermail.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,6494000%255E401,00.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=3258&forum=DCForumID71

CBS Producer Fired For Comparing The Mood In America To That Of Germans Who Helped Hitler's Rise To Power
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2845.htm

Producer Is a Casualty in CBS's 'Hitler' Miniseries
…
In the April 12 TV Guide, the publication says that “Gernon stated his belief that fear fueled both the Bush administration's adoption of a preemptive-strike policy and the public's acceptance of it.” According to the article, “Gernon said a similar fearfulness in a devastated post-World War I Germany was 'absolutely' behind that nation's acceptance of Hitler's extremism.”

Gernon is quoted as saying of the miniseries, which tracks Hitler's rise to power in 1930s Germany: “It basically boils down to an entire nation gripped by fear, who ultimately chose to give up their civil rights and plunged the whole world into war.

“I can't think of a better time to examine this history than now,” he added.

The article further quotes him as saying that “when an entire country becomes afraid for their sovereignty, for their safety, they will embrace ideas and strategies and positions that they might not embrace otherwise.”
…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A5649-2003Apr10¬Found=true

There is no way in hell anyone coming back from Guantanamo would tell the truth about what is going on there. Well maybe there are a couple, but they have both been charged with treason...

Or have you forgotten about the chaplain and the interpreter?

In fact, I think we might know where this Australian lawyer was getting his information from...

WAR CRIMINALS

yes for once i do agree with you the terrorist scumbags at gitmo are war criminals, illegal combatants to boot.

I wonder, were you ever in the military?
I was and happen to know things we did in Vietnam were far worse at times.
What concerns me is the labeling and name calling.

That is how depersonalization begins.

I have major issues with even having a war on terrorism - especially the way its being conducted.

I would not be surprised if in moments of un supervised frustration the guards were flagrently abusive. Not unlike prison guards here in the US.
This is not the way I want my country to behave. We should demand better conduct.

....months that 90% of the "guests" at the Gitmo facility are guilty of nothing more than being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Now they can't be released for fear of what they will say in public about their treatment. Did you know that prisoners have been shipped to foreign countries so that they could be "questioned" under the laws of those countries?

Got something else for you...even as a U. S. citizen you can be detained for an indefinite period of time without being charged. You can thank the passage of the Patriot Act for that. Did you know that the only Senator to actually read the Patirot Act before the vote was taken was Byrd of WV? And he not only voted against it, he also gave a speech warning what would happen if the bill was signed into law.

I get the sense that you were never in the military..is that correct? It's been my experience that the people who talk the toughest usually have never served in any capacity.

I'd bet the captors wouldn't agree to be subject to a trial under international law, but that the captives would.

Do you know their names and do you have proof they are terrorists? Were they just ordinary soldiers defending their "homeland". Do you know and have you been told how many of them are Al Queda? Have you any information at all about any of them?

If not then how can you condemn them so easily--

Thats good enough for a lot of Americans. I think he has made at least as good a case as Hitler did for his death camps.

The protester sit at its gate all the time. It is said to teach So Am police how to be police men and you know what those guys do. Look in to it as it is in the South some place and it has been shown on TV. It was talked about as more than putting you in a cell.

Formerly called the School of the Americas now renamed Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation.

<clips>

Background: The US Army School of Americas (SOA), based in Fort Benning, Georgia, trains Latin American soldiers in combat, counter-insurgency, and counter-narcotics. Graduates of the SOA are responsible for some of the worst human rights abuses in Latin America. Among the SOA's nearly 60,000 graduates are notorious dictators Manuel Noriega and Omar Torrijos of Panama, Leopoldo Galtieri and Roberto Viola of Argentina, Juan Velasco Alvarado of Peru, Guillermo Rodriguez of Ecuador, and Hugo Banzer Suarez of Bolivia. Lower-level SOA graduates have participated in human rights abuses that include the assassination of Archbishop Oscar Romero and the El Mozote Massacre of 900 civilians. (See Grads in the News.)

On January 17, 2001 the SOA was replaced by the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation (WHISC).
The result of a Department of Defense proposal included in the Defense Authorization Bill for Fiscal 2001, the name-change measure passed when the House of Representatives defeated a bi-partisan amendment to close the SOA and conduct a congressional investigation by a narrow ten vote margin. (See Talking Points, Critique of New School, Vote Roll Call.)

http://www.soaw.org/new/

---

November 21-23, 2003 Vigil Info

Join thousands at the gates of Fort Benning, Georgia from November 21-23, 2003 to commemorate all victims of terror and demand an end to impunity. Stand up for justice and against the double standard in the "War on Terrorism" - organize to close the SOA (renamed Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation).

Made me sick when I first read about it and Am wonder why the people or the world hate our gov. so. Has this been talked about to our 10 men running?DOD should not have this power. If you are willing to let this happen to any people you are willing to let it happen here to your people. Then it could happen to you.

We should prosecute the US Government in accordance with the Geneva accords.

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The disruptors sure are busy tonight.

But sometimes scum need to be called scum. Know what I mean?

The Brits would have shot George Washington and the Adams if they could have. Cromwell beheaded the King and all these people thought they were right and just. Just to make you think, I say these things. I would hate to have you say I am un-American so do not please tack that on to me.

That we'd advanced somewhat. The U.S seems to be regressing. Respect your elders and all that.

OK you think their being tortured, talk to the troops who come back from a tour at gitmo, i think you will be surprised, remember these guys are your neighbours, brothers, cousins etc. This torture crap is pure propaganda, having been in the MIlitary theres plenty of ways to get people to talk that work a lot better than the BS this guy is spinning.

after all this time how valuable could any info from these guys be? I mean they have beenout of circulation for so long anything they say is yesterday's news.

Of course the Bushies would rather we concentrate on that, what with Wilsongate brewing and all. Poor Jr., first he lost mumma (Hughes), then his mouthpiece (Ari the Liar) and now it looks like his precious "turd blossom" may be on his way out. Couple this with Rush of analy cyst fame going down the toilet and it's a dark day for fascism in America.

I can understand your dismay. :hi:

Julie

It may not be about getting them to talk. Remember U.S troops beat two people to death before they even got to Gitmo.

personally if they talk or not, if they have timely intel or not, isnt really important, its keeping the bad guys away from the good guys, rule #1, if hes locked up he aint shooting at you.

Thought not.

Maybe you should check out the law itself?

Fully dependent of the classification unlawful combatant.

Which I fear is bollocks

Unlawful combatants are only detainees under the Convention until a military tribunal certifies their status as illegal combatants. Then they are entitled to trial with the protections of the Geneva conventions.

but I recall reading something about non-uniformed partisans and guerillas being specifically excluded from protection in the accord, and subject to summary execution.

...but since they were captured during war, unless we convict them of war criems, they are to be releassed as soon as practible under International Law. That what you do with prisoners of war.

Unlawful combatants may be convicted of any crime, not just war crimes. They have no sanction or justification for killing, attempted killing, destruction of property, possession of explosives etc., which are justifiable in the case of lawful combatants.

As of the first American boots on the ground they were acting in defense of their country, fighting against an invading army. This would make them lawful combatants no?

Or do you wish to conceed the point that the American Founding Fathers and the French Resistance were in fact terrorists adn unlawful combatants?

they have no rights whatsoever.

You would see that I do believe that the prisoners at Gitmo have legal rights. This is whether they are classified as "unlawful combatants" or "lawful" combatants. I am making a point of law not fact. I have posted on this subject many times.

All prisoners regardless of status are presumptively entitled to due process of law under the Conventions. If however, a captive person at Gitmo hasn't had a hearing before the determination of his status, he is at least assured treatment as a detainee. My understanding from the UCMJ is that there should be a formal evidentiary hearing before classifying any of these people as combatants.

I understand your argument about resistance fighters and they should be entitled to lawful combatant status if there is a factual predicate for it. But if the fighter is an interloper, say from Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, not lawfully in country, doesn't wear a uniform or insignia and doesn't belong to any identifiable military unit, he is going to have a hard time qualifying as lawful combatant. At the same time, if there is no evidence that he killed anyone or attempted to kill or demolish targets, he should be treated as a detainee and released to his country of origin.

My point is that a detainee or unlawful combatant is not authorized to commit any crime. Under the law of war, certain acts committed by lawful combatants normally considered crimes are lawful if done before capture. War crimes are violations of international law that may be committed by any person.

they are POWs, they were fighting a war, they were recognised by the taliban regime as their own troops, foes but POWS.

are you scared by a decent trial ? something to hide ?

LOL

... good time of inquisition is back ... and justice for all !!!

:nopity:

didn't it?

cousins are capable of. TOTALLY!

SO all the troops in the military are blood thirsty barbarians, get real the guys at gitmo are YOUR neighbours, brothers and cousins.

no one said all of them were anything -- I'm sure, just as in any institution, there are some bad apples in the military

Under international law, summary execution of these people is legal. Basically, they have no rights.

I don't agree with it, but that's the state of the law.

Wrong again.

98% of tehm were captured during combat operations in Afganistan. At worst these people are irregulars, kinda like the Viet Cong. THey are not unlawful combatants, which is the proper term in case you were wondering not "illegal combatants", they are POW's. Reguardless of their status torture is disallowed under several international conventions.

Harking back to a previous discussion, we are abandoning the moral high ground if these stories are true. If we are allowing the torture of our captives then we cannot bitch when the same thing is done to our service men and women. Hell, we aren't going to be able to complain when it is done to our civilians.

How these people are "Illegal combatants"? Their only crime was being in their own country when we invaded. The old term for such folks was once partisan.

And just what is an "illegal combatant"? Could you explain please? Or are you simply paroting the sound bytes? Were these people violating the laws of their country when they fought against the invaders? Perhaps they were in violation of a UN mandate when they attempted to defend their country and resist the American attackers.

People defending their country from foreign invaders...
I thought that term was Patriot.

Mercenaries, in the pay of a belligerant in a conflict, are to be accorded the same treatment as any other soldiers of any of the belligerant parties. The fact that they may be "soldiers for hire" does not make them outside the Convention. And what "pray tell" is the deffinition of "illegal combatant"? I am not quite sure why I am even discussing this with you as you seem to have pretty hardened preconceived ideas.

Mercenaries, regardless of who is paying them, are specifically excluded from being under the protection of the Convention.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/93.htm

Article 47.-Mercenaries

1. A mercenary shall not have the right to be a combatant or a prisoner of war.

2. A mercenary is any person who:

(a) Is specially recruited locally or abroad in order to fight in an armed conflict;

(b) Does, in fact, take a direct part in the hostilities;

(c) Is motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a Party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party;

(d) Is neither a national of a Party to the conflict nor a resident of territory controlled by a Party to the conflict;

(e) Is not a member of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict; and

(f) Has not been sent by a State which is not a Party to the conflict on official duty as a member of its armed forces.

And the term 'illegal combatant' or 'unlawful combatant' is a misnomer. A better term is 'not protected party'.

The US is not a party to that Additinal Protocol, so it does not get to use that excuse, much like it doesn't have to comply with it's additional requirements.

Even if that Protocol was applicable,which it is not, the US would have to prove these men made more money than similar ranking members of whatever Party they were supposedly hired by. Also would have to prove they are not nationals or resident of Afghanistan.

Patrick Schoeb

...and I see you've bought into their rationale. Interesting.

ILLEGAL COMBATANTS are a construction of the Bush Administration

historically, that the term 'enemy combatants' has been used to indefinitely detain unknown people offshore for reasons we are not being made aware of, well, I don't think anyone here can answer your question.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the Geneva Convention doesn't use this term at any point, IIRC. It's a coinage of the * cabal.

Because the shrub declared them so? Is that really good enough for you? Do you trust him to be the "final say" decision-maker on this? Do you even know that American citizens are subject to the same treatment? Have you seen ANY evidence that ANYONE currently detained at gitmo is, in fact, a terrorist, or even a combatant? If you have, please share. This crucial information seems to be sorely lacking.

The United States is no diferent from any other dictatorship.

in the name of brotherhood & love for humanity, 'eh?

From the article you provided:

(snip) Bourke told ABC radio in Australia that his claims were based on reports leaked by US military personnel and from descriptions by some detainees. (snip)


(snip) Media reports that many detainees have attempted suicide and are suffering mental health problems backed up claims of harsh treatment, he said. (snip)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We've ALL read the propaganda pieces being thrown out concerning how they are "coddling" the prisoners, giving them their own little cereal boxes, their little prayer rugs, their right to pray, almost suggesting they are even close to tucking them in bed at night.

EVERYONE, I mean EVERYONE knows far better than that.

Thanks for posting this article, elduderino.

On edit:

ELDUDERINO! Welcome to D.U.! :hi: :bounce:

(And for the freeper in the thread - it's obvious who - I'm aware they aren't killing the prisoners. Yet.)

thats right im a freeper, is that because i know one of the guards, we have talked at length about gitmo as a professional interest. Whats that old saying about straight from the horses mouth.

Camp X-Ray is a high-security "venue". Anyone, and everyone, who works there must have a fairly high security clearance. (I'm no longer familiar with the classification system, which changed in the 1980s.)

If your bud is working at X-Ray and spilling the beans for you to go shooting off your mouth, he could be in a world of brass-plated hurt.

Two questions:

Why is security at Gitmo so tight?

Why are you bragging about your patently illegal bona fides?

I expect the detainees to say they were abused. I expect their custodians to be professionals.

--bkl

Do you think the gov't would let them come home if they were really going to tell someone the truth.
They call it debriefing.
It doesn't make any difference how close you think you are to these people they aren't going to tell you what they have been told not to tell.

If something is classified you were not supposed to discuss it.
You could be getting your friend in very serious trouble.

Do you have a professional interest in concentration camps?

Being one of those people cursed with a security clerance I have to admit he makes a very good point here.

Of course it is now your civic duty to turn your bud in as a traitor to the US. Not that you will of course.

I do sympathize with your plight getting called a freeper on here. I get it occassionally myself. However supporting the detention of these individuals in what is obviously a blatent violation of their rights, and nothing mroe than an attempt by the administration to circumvent the judicial process, does make your argumetns look pretty frepper'ish.

that all you're hearing from the horse's mouth is "nay?!?"

some never reached gitmo

http://www.democracynow.org/afghanfilm.shtml

ministered to the prisoners are now charged with treason.

That we yes WE are torturing people. Did anyone actuallly think that we are above torture??

......Common Curtesy is a DU law, ya know?

BUH-bye...

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War is much too serious a matter to be entrusted to the military.
Georges Clemenceau

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War is not nice.
Barbara Bush

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allow a NGO unfettered access to these POWs..what is there to hide??
charge them with crimes and let trials proceed..this place is a disgrace and anyone with an ounce of humanity knows it..

The George W. Bush Concentration Camp

What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?
Mahatma Gandhi

There will be little objection to its expansion and the construction of additional facilities as the prisoner base widens.

and just maybe the friend is on the first rung where it isn't the worst case scenario.

There was a link here the other day or a reporter who went in and when asked if he was from the media by a prisoner, he answered yes and then was barred from the camp.

According to him, there are levels/stages within the camp and just maybe this FIRST HAND account isn't where the REAL action is?

If so, then he can only speak for ONE area, possibly small. If he is right...that is good! Can't imagine Muslims eating bacon though... Yuck!

Mind you...any stage within the prison..the prison itself...is against all rules and common human decency IMO :puke:

Would seem to me, knowing this admin that there would be ther FRONT area where reporters and such are allowed and then the REAL nitty gritty truth of it hidden way deep where noone can see. :shrug:

... is here.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/h_cat39.htm

I am surprised and disgusted that some discussants would look for an excuse to use torture.

Patriotism is often an arbitrary veneration of real estate above principles.
George Jean Nathan

Has it occurred to them that torture might result in the victim telling you want you WANT to hear?


rocknation

WHERE’S OUR NINE BILLION DOLLARS, ARNOLD?

Hope everyone sees it. :hi:

so little sympathy for the millions of Americans behind bars for victimless crime.

Just because the BushReich says so??? No trial, no conviction, just the word of Bush that they are "bad men?" Or 13-year-olds, as the case may be?

In fact, those of us who are capable of holding more than 1 thought in our heads at a time may be outraged by torture at Gitmo and by the rapacious prison system in the U.S.A., too.

that goes for ALL prisoners.

Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War

Article 13

Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated. Any unlawful act or omission by the Detaining Power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its custody is prohibited, and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present Convention. In particular, no prisoner of war may be subjected to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are not justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of the prisoner concerned and carried out in his interest.

Likewise, prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity.

Measures of reprisal against prisoners of war are prohibited.

more...
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

peace

it's about destroying all self-respect in the would-be torturers. Not only do I not want any of my fellow human beings to undergo torture, I don't want my fellow Americans to lose their innocence in this last frontier. I think that to kill someone diminishes a part of you that never comes back; and to torture someone is a far darker thing than even to kill.

Oh, nobility, in what trash heap has my nation left you..