U.S. Could Send Marines Back to Iraq as Soon as February

October 21, 2003

THE WORLD
U.S. Could Send Marines Back to Iraq as Soon as February
A deployment would probably include Camp Pendleton troops home only a few months.


By Tony Perry, Times Staff Writer


CAMP PENDLETON — The Pentagon may send a contingent of Marines back to Iraq early next year, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff said here Monday.

"We're looking at the potential of using Marine Corps units in that rotation," Air Force Gen. Richard B. Myers said in an informal address to several thousand Marines sitting on the tarmac of this sprawling base. Most of the Marines served in the Iraq war and have only returned in the last few months.

Pentagon planners have suggested in recent weeks that the Marine Corps may be ordered to send troops back to Iraq, but Myers' comments were the strongest indication yet that such a decision is imminent. Myers said the Marines could be deployed as soon as February.

Any new deployment of Marines to Iraq is likely to include troops from Camp Pendleton, because under the military's method of dividing up the globe into "areas of responsibility," Iraq falls to the base. The 1st Marine Division, headquartered at Pendleton, sent 22,000 combat troops to Iraq earlier this year. (snip/...)

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-chief21oct21,1,4972960.story?coll=la-headlines-world

Only an Air Force General could go along with that. Got to keep tabs on those petrol smugglers cutting into Halliburton profits importing gasoline into Iraq. This is another new Marine Corps mission.

a training which the Army lacks. The USMC had a group of observers in Ramallah watching how the IDF conducted operations there two years ago (this was reported in the British press and posted in DU). One tactic was to use a Palestinian hostage to knock on the door of the house to be searched. Once the IDF got inside the house, with or without their hostage being alive, they would get to the next house by just blowing up a hole on the wall. The houses were densely packed, so the tactic of blowing holes into walls allowed the IDF to go from house to house withou having to burst doors.

Another thing the IDF uses are big forrestry trail making bulldozers, which have been heavily armored. Rather than go into a neighborhood, the IDF would sometimes just flatten an entire block of houses.

I am sure our USMC observers could use the same tactics in Iraq.

:puke:

...I was a Naval Gunfire Liaison Officer to the Marines many years ago, and urban warfare is NOT, and will NEVER be, their primary mission. They are a light infantry force trained for moving quickly to secure and/or surround objectives and move on to the next.

One more point, if the Marines are going to be using those morally reprehensible IDF tactics, they might as well use small nukes and kill the Iraqis quickly rather than a piece at a time.

A short story and picture of urban warfare training at Quantico:

http://www.defenselink.mil/photos/Sep2000/000906-M-0000R-001.html

This is the older 1999 Manual on urban warfare:

http://www.tecom.usmc.mil/utm/URBAN%20WARFARE%20CPLS%20COURSE.PDF

U.S. Marines studying Israeli urban warfare methods at Jenin

SPECIAL TO WORLD TRIBUNE.COM
Thursday, June 6, 2002

The U.S. Marine Corps and Israeli military commanders are studying the capture of the Palestinian refugee camp outside the West Bank city of Jenin. The three-day battle left 23 Israelis and more than 50 Palestinians dead.

The Marines want to learn from the Israeli experience in urban warfare and the recent massive search-and-destroy operations for Palestinian insurgents in the West Bank.

Marine Lt. Col. Dave Booth, who oversees the Marine Corps-Israeli Defense Force exchanges, said his service meets with commanders from Israel and other countries to exchange information and hone skills. Booth said this benefits both the United States and its allies.

http://216.26.163.62/2002/ss_military_06_06.html

The Army is just as committed to Urban Warfare training, it has been the big issue since the fall of the USSR (and its Red Army) since 1989. This is referred to as MOUT Military Operations in Urban Terrains:
see the following for the whole list of List of Field Manuals (Go to site, and click on "Documents" at bottom of page, than on the left side will come up list of Documents including the Field Manuals):
http://www.adtdl.army.mil/atdls.html
Please note the one marked with a little lock is restricted so us civilians can not down load them, but the rest we can.

Here is where MOUT is used in those field manuals:
MOUT military operation on urbanized terrain FM 63-23 Aviation Support Battalion
MOUT Military Operations in Urban Terrain User Defined/Submitted MOUT military operations in urban terrain FM 17-98 SCOUT PLATOON MOUT Military Operations in Urban Terrain FM 3-101-2 NBC RECONNAISSANCE SQUAD/PLATOON (FOX) OPERATIONS TACTICS, TECHNIQUES, AND PROCEDURES
MOUT military operations in urban terrain FM 31-20-3 Foreign Internal Defense
MOUT military operations in urban terrain TC 71-5 FIRE COORDINATION EXERCISE
MOUT Military Operations in Urban Terrain DoD Modeling & Simulation Directive & Master Plan
MOUT military operations in urbanized terrain FM 71-1 TANK AND MECHANIZED INFANTRY COMPANY TEAM
MOUT military operations in urbanized terrain FM 44-16 PLATOON COMBAT OPERATIONS--CHAPARRAL, VULCAN, AND STINGER
MOUT Military Operations on U TC 25-10 A LEADER'S GUIDE TO LANE TRAINING MOUT military operations on u TC 25-8 TRAINING RANGES
MOUT military operations on urban terrain FM 3-11 FLAME, RIOT CONTROL AGENTS, AND HERBICIDE OPERATIONS
MOUT Military Operations on Urban Terrain TC 3-10 Commander's Tactical NBC Handbook MOUT military operations on urban terrain TC 5-250 DEMOLITION EFFECTS SIMULATORS
MOUT military operations on urban terrain FM 6-20 FIRE SUPPORT IN THE AIRLAND BATTLE
MOUT military operations on urbanized terrain AR 310-50
MOUT military operations on urbanized terrain AR 310-50
MOUT military operations on urbanized terrain FM 1-100 Doctrinal Principles for Army Aviation in Combat Operations
MOUT military operations on urbanized terrain FM 5-71-2 ARMORED TASK-FORCE ENGINEER COMBAT OPERATIONS
MOUT Military Operations on Urbanized Terrain FM 10-296 HEADQUARTERS AND HEADQUARTERS UNITS, GRAVES REGISTRATION BATTALION
MOUT military operations on urbanized terrain FM 10-52 WATER SUPPLY IN THEATERS OF OPERATIONS
MOUT military operations on urbanized terrain FM 16-1 RELIGIOUS SUPPORT
MOUT military operations on urbanized terrain FM 23-24 DRAGON MEDIUM ANTITANK/ASSAULT WEAPON SYSTEM M47
MOUT military operations on urbanized terrain FM 25-4 HOW TO CONDUCT TRAINING EXERCISES
MOUT military operations on urbanized terrain FM 3-101-1 SMOKE SQUAD/PLATOON OPERATIONS --TACTICS, TECHNIQUES, AND PROCEDURES--
MOUT military operations on urbanized terrain FM 5-71-100 DIVISION ENGINEER COMBAT OPERATIONS
MOUT military operations on urbanized terrain FM 5-7-30 BRIGADE ENGINEER AND ENGINEER COMPANY COMBAT OPERATIONS (AIRBORNE, AIR ASSAULT, LIGHT)
MOUT military operations on urbanized terrain FM 71-100 DIVISION OPERATIONS
MOUT military operations on urbanized terrain FM 71-100-3 AIR ASSAULT DIVISION OPERATIONS
MOUT military operations on urbanized terrain FM 8-42 MEDICAL OPERATIONS IN LOW INTENSITY CONFLICT
MOUT military operations on urbanized terrain FM 90-13-1 COMBINED ARMS BREACHING OPERATIONS
MOUT military operations on urbanized terrain FM 90-31 AMCI Army and Marine Corps Integration in Joint Operations
MOUT military operations on urbanized terrain TC 7-9 INFANTRY LIVE-FIRE TRAINING
MOUT military operations on urbanized terrain FM 23-10 SNIPER TRAINING
MOUT military operations on urbanized terrain FM 7-8 INFANTRY RIFLE PLATOON AND SQUAD
MOUT military operations on urbanized terrain FM 8-10-1 THE MEDICAL COMPANY
MOUT military operations on urbanized terrain FM 1-111 AVIATION BRIGADES
MOUT military operations on urbanized terrain FM 17-18 LIGHT ARMOR OPERATIONS
MOUT military operations on urbanized terrain FM 23-31 40-MM GRENADE LAUNCHER, M203
MOUT military operations on urbanized terrain FM 6-30 TACTICS, TECHNIQUES, AND PROCEDURES FOR OBSERVED FIRE
MOUT military operations on urbanized terrain FM 7-92 THE INFANTRY RECONNAISSANCE PLATOON AND SQUAD (AIRBORNE, AIR ASSAULT, LIGHT INFANTRY)
MOUT military operations on urbanized terrain FM 90-7 Combined Arms Obstacle Integration
MOUT military operations on urbanized terrain. FM 3-50 Smoke Operations

...used in urban warfare. NEVER. Period.

IMHO, some wiz-kid in the Pentagon decided that the USMC was not being fully utilized and decided that urban warfare would be just the ticket. I don't have a clue as to why anyone would think that the USMC, an excellent light infantry force, would have the qualifications for such a mission. The only reason that the USMC is being asked to take on this additional role is because Special Operations troops are spread way too thin in various missions around the world.

The ideal unit for urban warfare would be an assault group drawn from elements of the regular infantry, recon, special forces, demolitions, light support weapons, heavy support weapons, close-range infantry guns, and standard artillery working on a call-for-fire basis. Air support can be used in urban environments, but it has to be carefully controlled...otherwise, you start killing your own people.

Since 1989 and the fall of the USSR, the main areas of Combat for ground forces have been viewed as either Urban (See MOUT Above) or riot control in urban settings. Who is going to challenge the military power of the US? The only place to do so is where that might is the weakness and that is in urban fighting. Saddam did not fight our forces in the Iraqi Desert but in the build up areas around the Iraqi cities. He would have done the same in Bagdad except (according to Reports of the time period, see iraqwar.ru) of some treason by two of his relatives who took the CIA's money and sabotage the plan urban Defense of Bagdad (It appears the lost of US life was to high so the CIA paid big bucks for the peaceful fall of Bagdad).

Thus both the Army and Marines have been planning to fight in Urban terrain, both do not like the idea of doing so and prefer traditional areas of fighting, but both know that any real fighting will be in urban areas not rural deserts (Where American Air power makes any traditional Defense worthless).

Remember the huge story that came out about 1 1/2 years ago? The one with the Army and the failure to train their troops for Urban combat. The average unit suffered, somewhere in the range of 60%-80% casualties in MILES excercises because they were so poorly trained.

Odd that a study never came out on the Marines, I'd love to see how their training worked, or didn't work in the case of the Army....

I think we're seeing the failure of the training now in Iraq, thankfully, we didn't have to fight a major operation for Baghdad, that would have been an abosolute disaster.

Hoo Rah

the Marines ready to attack Iran or Syria?

This is the way we introduce love in the name of brotherhood.

The whole world is watching.

The corrupt administration chickenhawks are finally figuring out that this isn't like playing Risk or Stratego. Troops have to be rotated in and out regularly, you can't just leave them on the board for months on end, particularly in a brutal climate without adequate support services.

Somebody close that window -- I feel a draft!

on the guys who didn't show up at the airport to return them to Iraq.

Especially as the Defnse budget passed a month or so ago took money AWAY from the Marines to beef up the ARMY.(The Navy and AF lost more $$, but they aren't in active combat in Iraq.)

Are they now going to supply the Marines with ceramic battle gear, seeing how the Defense appropriation for this for the Army isn't even doing the job?

I think I had post alluding to this fact a few weeks ago. My brother
(a Marine) said they were just waiting for the word. He returned at the end of May. This is NOT good news.