Battle over coma woman to drag on

Husband to appeal order
by Fla. governor requiring
hospital to resume feeding

CLEARWATER, Fla., Oct. 22 — One of the nation’s longest and most bitter right-to-die battles is headed for further legal confrontation, as attorneys for the husband of a comatose Florida woman prepare to appeal Gov. Jeb Bush’s order that his wife’s feeding tube be reconnected. An attorney for the woman’s husband charged Wednesday that Terri Schiavo was exhibiting signs of organ failure when hospital workers began reintroducing fluids into her system after a week without food or water, and said the governor’s order could just make her suffer more before dying.
TWO STATE JUDGES refused to overturn Bush’s order, which led a hospital to begin giving fluids to Schiavo six days after her feeding tube was removed. The second judge instead asked an attorney for Schiavo’s husband, Michael, and the state to submit briefs in preparation for a trial.
Michael Schiavo, who last week had won a court order that the feeding tube be removed at the end of a long legal battle with his wife’s family, planned to fight on, said his attorney, George Felos.
An angry Felos said Wednesday on NBC’s “Today” show that Terri Schiavo was “literally ... abducted from her deathbed.”

more--- http://www.msnbc.com/news/980564.asp?0sl=-23

msnbc's fault not the posters just wanting to make that clear.

Didn't her doctors say she is brain dead? There's a big difference between brain dead and being in a coma?

not a coma.

The media don't bother with the facts too much, ya know!

She has brain damage. Check out the videos at www.terrisfight.org

http://seeingthedifference.berkeley.edu/schneiderman.html



Now, just a brief lesson in neurology. You have in your brain the cerebral cortex, which is actually a very thin structure on the outer surface of your cerebral hemispheres. Four to six minutes of anoxia, lack of oxygen, destroys that completely. The rest of your brain, particularly the brain stem, can survive for fifteen or twenty minutes without oxygen. That disparity accounts for what we now see in as many as 30,000 to 40,000 people being kept alive in permanent unconsciousness. Usually the cause is failed CPR, or occasionally a stroke or a motor vehicle accident of some sort. What happens is that that part of the brain, the cerebral cortex, which is us, our personality, who we are, how we think--our capacity to experience, see, hear, think, emote--that may be permanently destroyed. Whereas the rest of us, the brain stem, which gives us the ability to breath, digest, all the organ functions, that could be kept alive, and in many cases has been kept going for decades. And so that has given us this condition which was first diagnosed in 1972. It's really interesting, that that's a very new disease as far as medicine is concerned, and, in fact, it's an iatrogenic disease. Vegetative state is the condition, as we call it, but persistent or permanent is what we do to keep that condition going. So in a sense, that's a very important notion.

Now, all of us who do ethics consultations, have had the experience, and I've had several, where families have insisted that their loved one be kept alive in a permanent vegetative state, permanently unconscious. And this is a clinical diagnosis. If someone, for example, has persistent vegetative state, where their eyes may open and close and they have all sorts of reflex capacities, that's because that part of the brain stem, the reticular activating system that's responsible for sleep/wake may be temporarily impaired, but then recover. And so they're unconscious. Their eyes may open, and they sleep, but they're completely unaware. Families will sometimes demand that physicians keep such patients alive--and it's very simple, a feeding tube and good nursing care will do it. There's nothing more that has to be done, if that's the condition we're talking about.

Now, I've either been involved in or heard of cases where families have demanded that this be done, and the patient has been kept alive for eighteen months although there is no realistic chance that the patient will ever recover. I have to admit that today, hearing about embalming made me think of the parallel, that this was a family that needed to see that person in an embalmed state. It's truly nothing less than that, if you consider the person, the capacity of the person to interact. (more)

Terri Shivao is NOT in a pvs. I've seen the videos.

I've always viewed most neurologists with a bit of suspicion. Perhaps their studies into "the brain" leads them to forget about the soul of a person.

My daughter suffered apoxia at birth. She has diffuse damage to her cortex. She is fully conscious (granted, with severe brain damage, she has alternating states of awareness--but don't we all?). She is aware. She is responsive. She is not even close to being classified as being in a "persistive vegetaive state".

I pray to god I will never have to encounter the cold robotic decision makers like yourself in my daughter's lifetime who will insist that she is not a joyful, loving, feeling PERSON who does not deserve to eat.

Don't tell me it's not about the almighty corporate dollar. Besides, it makes many people "uncomfortable" to see people with severe disabilities. I believe that is rooted in people's own fears of losing their OWN abilities and having to rely on someone else for their basic needs.

Can't we just "put" them somewhere? It would be so much more "tidy" that way, don't you think? :eyes:

Interesting--these medical ethics "professionals" seem to have the same type of hypocritical title as do our present officials in charge of Environmental Protection, Energy Conservation, and the like.

Sounds like there are no ethics involved at all.

A lot of people know little or nothing about the human brain.

And while I admire your devotion to your daughter (and I mean that sincerely), you have to realize that yes, she has a damaged cortex--but Theresa Shiavo has no cortex at all.

The five doctors that testified in Terri's case only disagreed on whether or not there was ANY cortex left at all. CAT scans show none.

Terri is not your daughter. Their situations are not the same.

"I pray to god I will never have to encounter the cold robotic decision makers like yourself in my daughter's lifetime who will insist that she is not a joyful, loving, feeling PERSON who does not deserve to eat."

Now THAT is unfair. First of all, I'm not a decision maker, and secondly, I'm not cold hearted.

Again, Terri Schiavo's situation and your daugher's situation are not the same.

My daughter has a bit of wry humor mixed in with obstinate disdain, especially when she is expected to act like a trained seal.

I've experienced if a child who isn't obedient to an adult's commands (esp one who doesn't KNOW her), it's because they are being defiant and don't WANT to perform the task. When a child has severe disabilities, it's automatically assumed they don't do it because they can't.

My daughter can not/will not move limbs on command most of the time.

I saw Terri doing so.

It's scary...these tests to prove they are people.

I saw Terri reacting to her parents' playing the piano exactly the way my daughter reacts--with smiles and squeals. You have any idea how rewarding that is? You have any idea how pure that appreciation for music is?

Terri is very much alive. Terri has tremendous love and joy in her life, probably more than many people who are advocating for her extermination. Who is supposed to feel sorry for whom here?

"My daughter has a bit of wry humor mixed in with obstinate disdain, especially when she is expected to act like a trained seal."

!! Good. I don't blame her.

"My daughter can not/will not move limbs on command most of the time.

I saw Terri doing so."

That's not what Terri was doing.

"I saw Terri reacting to her parents' playing the piano exactly the way my daughter reacts--with smiles and squeals. You have any idea how rewarding that is? You have any idea how pure that appreciation for music is?"

I saw the video. Those were not smiles and squeals. And her parents were not playing the piano--it was a recording (not that it makes much difference).

Again, I think you are equating Terri's situation with your daughter's. They are not the same. It is a question of degree, yeah, but in this case degree is everything, especially since Terri told her husband and others that she didn't want to be in such a situation.

I don't doubt your sincerity though, and I'll bet you are a wonderful parent.

was most definitely smiles and squeals. I showed them to my respite worker last night, who also teaches children who have orthopedic disabilities.

Not everyone can read subtle responses, but they are responses nonetheless. I know a number of children who have similar joyful behaviors. It's obviouslythere.

We both were astounded at the claims that Terri is unresponsive.

I didn't see the piano video, as the server was overloaded, but watched the others. I saw a definate struggle going on to open her eyes, and then a sense of success?, certainly something as she managed to open them very wide. This woman is clearly reacting to the world around her, albeit in a limited way. But she reacts, she even appears pleased or annoyed. She shows emotion. Since there is no written living will stating that she does not want to be maintained in this particular condition, I have to conclude that it would be murder to continue withholding food and water.

With all due respect to the doctors, until a fairly recent time, it was thought medically impossible for stroke victims to regain abilities governed by brain areas that had died. We now know that other areas can take over, especially if the right therapy is provided. It was also believed impossible to regrow brain cells until 1999, when scientists from Princeton that new nerve cells are continually added to the cerebral cortex, the largest and most advanced part of the brain. http://www.brainlightning.com/regen.html

It appears to me that this woman must either have ENOUGH cerebral cortex left to allow her the reactions and obvious emotions that she is showing, or some other part is taking over some of that function.

Part of good science is realizing how much there still is to discover.

The only one that I had heard of was the husband, saying that she wouldn't want to live like this. And he only remembered this AFTER he got the big settlement money. If she did in fact tell others of this wish, AND that can be documented by someone who is reliable, then that would go a long way toward convincing me that this was okay.

"I've always viewed most neurologists with a bit of suspicion. Perhaps their studies into "the brain" leads them to forget about the soul of a person."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

It appears that you believe in the existance of "soul". But your concern also indictates that you believe that whatever a "soul" is, is not eternal. (If it were real, wouldn't it necessarily be?...otherwise what use is it?)

What I am asking is, whether a person's "soul" (what exactly IS that, IYO?) lasts for 90 years or 90 billion centuries and then ...what? fades away, finally "dies", what is its utility after the end of the universe?

Can a "soul" think? Does it remember its previous human incarnation? Does it have the ability to eat a steak, see a sunrise, ride a roller coaster or have an orgasm? Or can it accomplish the most putatively important thing possible...to have communication with loved ones? No effing way.

The poor woman has ceased to be a human. Let her go into the everlasting night peacefully. The horrific "grin" that finds its way into so many photos is anything but an expression of joy. She accomplishes little more than does a Kansas sunflower phototroping and
is unfortunately a waste of resources.

It's a right to live battle.

of Florida.

!

The husband: is he, or is he not, able to get a divorce from Terri? By able, I mean legally permitted. I've read that he can, and I've read that he can't. I'd like to know the facts on that one particular issue. Anyone know for sure?

Sorry. We can only speculate (which is not a very good thing to do).

but on radio show I heard he CAN get a divorce legally, but that he doesn't want one cause then he relinquish's his guardianship over her to decide her fate and he wants to "carry out her wishes" to not be kept alive artificially (is feeding a person artificial?).

That he allegedly said he does not want a divorce, because he is afraid that her parents will not fulfill her wish to die if they are left with guardianship.

I've also read that because she is considered incapable of consent, that he can't legally get a divorce. That does not sound right to me. You can get a divorce against someone's wishes, you just have to wait out the designated time period. You do not need their consent. At least that's true in PA, not sure about FL.

When a person in a vegetative state cannot be fed in any other way then by a machine, then it is artificial.

She cannot feed herself, and there is no guarantee that even with rehab, that she will ever learn how to feed herself.

I would say that using a machine to keep a person alive is artificial,
and not natural.

Not having the physical capabilites to feed yourself and needing assistance does not constitute "force feeding". Nor should it warrant a starvation death sentence.

Eating marshmellows is "artificial". Using a gastric tube as an alternate esophogus is not artifical nor is it "life support".
It's simply a different way to get nutrition. No biggie.

RE the machine-shall we ban insulin pumps? dialysis machines? electronic toothbrushes?

but that was probably part of the settlement with her children to reinstate Klaus' & Sunny's daughter Cosima in various wills. Sunny is still alive, in a coma.

I don't see it online, but Bay News 9 did have a quick mention of it earlier this morning.

"A hospital spokeswoman said Wednesday she could not comment on Felos’ assertions on the program that Terri Schiavo was exhibiting signs of organ failure when the feeding recommenced."


?

So yes, it's probably true, but the hospital shouldn't and won't say anything.

Shouldn't we unravel the twist and restate this as organ failure due to starvation and the the recommencing of food?

We see it almost daily on the local news in TampaBay.

Apparently money has never been a part of it, thank GOD. Old reports I remember said there was a $700,000.00 insurance policy involved, but her parents offered the husband that amount of money to let them have her.

Ain't Gonna Be No Winners Here. Legislature and Governor have instituted a law that may be against the Constitution.

I remember Atty Gen Webster of Missouri (before he got thrown out of office for being a crook- One of the Ashcroft gang) arguing a life support case before the Supreme Court and losing. That would probably be the precedent if the Florida law passed last week is challenged by the husband.

idea of keeping someone in a PVS state alive (against her wishes) to be horrendous.

to not only discuss our wishes with our family, but put it in writing as well.

I'd call it experientially immature and cruel to selfishly prolong such a life that hasn't a remote chance of recovery. I'd call it the "Vulture Law".

They refuse to accept that she cannot be rehabilitated.

And her body is being used by many people she doesn't even know as a political prop.

about Terri's limitations.

That is such a typical professional CLINICAL answer.

Her LIFE is being utilized to finally put into the mainstream media the disability eugenics atrocities of whom thousands of others in this nation have been victims.

Selfish? Hardly. Believe it or not, most people with severe disabilites do not want to be put to death. Some of the others do not want to live because they are not valued as people by our society and are denied the basic supports/services they need. A very small minority do not have a will to live solely because of their incapacities.

``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
from www.notdeadyet.org

Since 1983, many people with disabilities have opposed the assisted suicide and euthanasia movement. Though often described as compassionate, legalized medical killing is really about a deadly double standard for people with severe disabilities, including both conditions that are labeled terminal and those that are not.

Disability opposition to this ultimate form of discrimination has been ignored by most media and courts, but countless people with disabilities have already died before their time. For some, a disabled person’s suicidal cry for help" was ignored, misinterpreted, or even exploited by the right to die movement. For others, death came at the request of a family member or other health care surrogate. This is not compassion, it’s contempt.

People already have theright to refuse unwanted treatment, and suicide is not illegal. What we oppose is a public policy that singles out individuals for legalized killing based on their health status. This violates the Americans With Disabilities Act, and denies us the equal protection of the law. Some bioethicists have even started to argue that intellectually disabled people are not persons under the law. That hasn’t happened since slavery was legal.

Legalized medical killing is not a new human right, it’s a new professional immunity. It would allow health professionals to decide which of us are "eligible for this service, and exempt them from accountability for their decisions. Killing is not just another medical treatment option, and it must not be made any part of routine health care. In these days of cost cutting and managed care, we don't trust the health care system, and neither should you

You are talking about people with disabilities. This is about people who are 99.9% dead. Let them die with some dignity.

I'm not aware of a medical case where somebody who was able to express their wish to live has been put to death. Not gonna happen.

The inflammatory language of the post from notdeadyet.org has assured me that this is an extremist fringe group and will remain so. Same tone as the Army of God and abortion clinic bombers.

Terri is not 99.9% dead.

You're not aware of cases where people were given a death sentence when they expressed a will to live? You do not read enough, then.

Not Dead Yet is as much an extremeist fringe group as DU. Yes, the language is a bit inflammatory....they are fighting for their damn lives. Tends to be a bit of a passionate subject, agreed.

Where are the cases of persons who expressed their wish to live being put to death? Got a link? (Please...no links on stuff that the Nazis did or capital punishment. Context is medical treatment.)

www.mouthmag.com

www.raggededgemagazine.com

http://www.internationaltaskforce.org

These are just off the top of my head. I read a lot, so I don't remember specific autobiographical accounts nor where I read them.

Believe me--my antennae are extended on articles about this crap.

I need to see specific examples of the cases you say exist, not just links to your reading list. Since you read so much and your antennae are extended on these issues you would naturally be familiar with these cases and keep them at the ready to support your arguments. So where are they?

Lacking any evidence I assume that you "don't remember specific autobiographical accounts nor where I read them" because they do not exist. It's not believable that you would gloss over such cases if they did exist.

I do a lot of reading re disability rights/advocacy issues. I am unable to remember specifics for a couple of reasons: I have memory problems; I have an overwhelming number of stressors/responsibilities in my life; There are are a plethora of such accounts. As a matter of fact, the sheer volume of of such incidences is astounding. I have a busy life. I'm not about to rummage through my periodicals to find specific articles written by people who have experienced such blatant disregard for the value of their life because you demand so.

They do exist and I am insulted by your attitude. I'm not going to produce a bibliography for you. I gave you the the online sources for the publications I read that focus on the segregation and stripping of civils rights for people with disabilities.

Do your own damn homework.

That's all you have to do. Show me/us the evidence to support your claims.

but they are misguided in mistaking Terri Schiavo as merely "disabled" as opposed to being in a PVS.

and profoundly retarded and she reacts the same. this is not a life. the parents and family should be resigned. she is dead in all intents and purposes. let her go.

My daughter and I have a wonderful high quality life together. It may not be "normal" for the general population, but it is very normal for us.

Perhaps if you were cabable of seeing beyond the disabilities and getting to know the person trapped inside a body that does not work perfectly, you'd discover some enlightenment.

different from being in a PVS.

CP is caused by brain damage. Terri has brain damage. She is not in a PVS.

c'mon...you can do it...

But no, Terri has been diagnosed as being PVS. Nothing you can say about brain damage can change that fact, Deek. But you have shown me where you're coming from, and I can respect that.

I'm surprised this hasn't been done before. I don't know if it will help,but it may create a buffer between these family members. Michael Schiavo may well be acting from pure motives and he may be truthful in his reporting of Terri's wishes. I wonder if the parents and other family members will moderate their views if the husband is removed as guardian? I can understand why they may feel that he has a credibility problem. I do hope that everybody,however young,will put their wishes in writing. I have my concerns about this case,and envy those who are certain of the right,either way. I'm glad the decision doesn't rest with me.

With my mom, we were told to always have a DNC (Do Not Rescusitate) sign on the back of the bed either in the care facility or in the hospital. This was in addition to the living will.

There is just no good way to determine such things.

Jeb Bush and the Florida legislature have set a dangerous precedent.

Once these decisions are removed from the individual's own wishes and their immediate family to the courts, it becomes problemmatic. But, once the 'State" is allowed to intervene, it becomes absolutely chilling.

Having said that, I think the patient's own expressed wishes needs to be paramount to all. If, as appears to be the case here, her wishes were not well documented or questionable, then I DO think the parent's wishes should be given a bit more priority than a spouse if the court has any doubts at all about motivation...

.

Especially jeb bush should not exceed/interfere with the doctor/patient relationship.

Neither of them know how to diagnose any type of illness, disease or medical condition. They were not trained or board certified to practice medicine.

The ultimate place for the decision to be made is in the courts. Both parties are given the opportunity to present their side with experts in the medical field along with the evidence. If the experts after examination determine that she is brain dead then "her wishes" should be followed. I don't have a good feeling about the husband as to whether he is doing it for selfish reasons or being true. (I mean I have doubts about the husband)

With the florida legislature and jeb bush setting precedent they are opening a can of worms that should be shoved right back down their throats. I don't want the legislature or a governor dictating against my wishes whether I get any type of treatment or in some cases whether I must get treatment. The only exception is if it is for the public good such as getting shots that we are required when we were children.

someone say they would want to be kept alive under such circumstances.

I'd want to be kept alive under such circumstances. Whether somebody or the state should be compelled to pay for honoring my wishes is another matter entirely but, yeah, I'd want every possible opportunity to remain alive.

That is not living as far as I am concerned. I have 3 wonderful children and I would never ever want to see them kept going in a situation like this. I am just horrified at these pictures of Terri. She certainly does not look like the living to me.

story many years ago about some poor guy whose brain was removed and hooked up to a blood supplying device. So the brain was "alive" to a degree but he had no way to interface with the world. If I believed in hell, it would be something like what that fellow and probably "Terri" would be experiencing. Not really, though, because there isn't any functionalit in what's left of her cerebrum.

The whole damn thing is just sick.

I had a dream about being hit head on by a semi and everything going dark as I prayed to live. Then I woke up sometime later. Things were fuzzy sight wise and things sounded like they do underwater and I had trouble thinking clearly. I didn't feel my body. I couldn't move at all but was aware that I was in a hospital. Sound became clearer and people spoke about how I had no chance at recovery and how they should just pull the plug but I knew that I was alive. I had this dream a couple of years ago. Maybe, this is how it is. Imagine being alive and conscious but no one knew it. I know that many people fear becoming severely disabled. Heck, many fear being relatively moderately disabled. I once remember overhearing a discussion amongst some fellow college students who agreed that they would kill themselves if they would go blind or become paralyzed. I am not afraid to live with whatever disability I would experience.

plus, i recall reading an account about terri becoming agitated and expressing fear throughout all of this fight....actually making physical attempts to get out of her chair when the feeding cessation was being discussed.

Wonderful. I guess since they assume she can't see, think, hear or feel, she is talked about in the third person with no consideration of how all this "discussion" about killing her would affect her.

Compassionate, indeed.

Since the 1980s, a lot has been said about the provision of food and fluids by "artificial means." Originally the debate centered on court cases involving people who were classified as being comatose or in a persistent vegetative state (PVS) and who were receiving food and fluids by means of a feeding tube. Over the years, the meaning of "artificial feeding" has expanded and the number of categories of people from whom it is removed has grown.

Currently, cases coming before the courts involve people whom all parties acknowledge are not in a coma or PVS. Two such cases are those involving Michael Martin in Michigan and Robert Wendland in California. (1)

It's important to recognize that we only hear about the cases that are brought before the courts when there is disagreement among family members or with health care providers. The reality is that decisions are being made every day to withhold food and fluids from non-dying patients. (italics mine)

The following are the questions asked most frequently about what has become known as "artificial feeding:"

continued at
http://www.internationaltaskforce.org/fctaf.htm

but if anything should happen to the parents will the other family members step in take care of her if the parents do get her? Since she could outlive the parents have they got longterm care in place for the future. It is all about planning and seems this came about because of not planning with a living will. Life is not promised for a set time so whether young/middle age/old learn from this, if you want your wishes honored put it in writing!

I agree with everything they say.

Delegate Bob Marshall (R-13th, Virginia House of Delegates)



Wednesday, October 22, 2003



President George W. Bush

The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC
FAX: 202-456-2461



RE: Terri Schiavo’s Life Still in Jeopardy



Dear President Bush:



Terri Schiavo who is handicapped continues to experience violations of her Civil Rights which threaten her life and well-being despite passage of a law by the Florida legislature blocking her starvation. (See attached.)



Woodside Hospice where Terri was staying ignored Governor Jeb Bush’s executive order issued at 5:00 PM to begin nutrition and hydration. Finally at 7:00 PM Woodside authorized Terri’s transfer to Morton Plant Hospital.
Morton Plant Hospital medical staff in Clearwater also refused to re-insert her feeding tube or provide an IV, claiming they would be sued by Michael Schavio even though the recently passed Florida statute gave them immunity from suit. Finally they relented at approximately 9:30 PM and inserted an IV.
Florida Judge David A. Demers declined to appoint a temporary guardian for Terri to ensure compliance with Governor Bush’s executive order.


Former Chief of Staff of Morton Plant Hospital, Dr. Jay Carpenter may be reached at his home to verify the first two points above at xxxxxxxxxx, or his cell at xxxxxxxxxx.



Terri’s friends appealed to me last night to intervene for her with Morton Plant hospital. I am not situated to effectively protect Terri’s civil rights. Terri’s situation requires federal involvement. Because Terri’s husband is still her guardian, Terri’s life is still in jeopardy.



Sincerely,





Delegate Bob Marshall

so to speak?