German Jews Protest Lawmaker's anti-Semitic Remarks (Friday, 10/31/03)

A German lawmaker drew charges of anti-Semitism from Jewish leaders and politicians Thursday for reportedly saying that Jews were guilty in the killings of millions of people after the Russian revolution.

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http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1067489843352&p=1008596981749

Although -as each time when the CDU shows it true face - there are wackos defending the position (happened to me on another board today- ugly ).

The person in question did very similiar things already (against the Benes-decrees for example) and is known for his (Neo)Nazi symphaties. He won his district with 56%, his Party is currently polled at over 50%.

His Speech (German, maybe Babelfish can help) can be found here:
http://www.tagesschau.de/aktuell/meldungen/0,1185,OID2535644,00.html

He has not yet apologized, but repeated his claims, citing Far-Right pseudo historians.

Go figure.

it's just that people like you claim anti-semitism everytime
someone points out another IDF abuse

go figure

Actually, I don't. I claim anti-Semitism when I see evidence of anti-Semitism, like the recent speech that stirred such controversy.

Except you do

Except I don't

Do

Do not

Do

Do not

Doo Doo

Any serious argument with Muddle is fruitless. His style of argument consists of making ridiculous assertions and refusing to back them up with evidence.

I've greatly admired Muddleoftheroad's style of argument and do not see it at all in the way you have characterized.

Your ridiculous commentary is only offset by, well, your ridiculous assertions. You are two for two.

Equating Leftist opposition to Israeli theft of Palestinian land, murders of innocent civilians, bulldozing of homes, shootings and murders of peace activists, and illegal settlement expansion with anti-Semitism, is the problem.

I equate leftist opposition (and rightist opposition) to Israel as anti-Semitism. If you don't like what Israel does, then you may be a political opponent. If you don't believe in Israel as a homeland for the Jewish people, then I question your motives in a big way.

Every time you say this, I respond with the same questions. And you've never even attempted to answer them, much less answer them satisfactorily.

The Jews suffered a terrible holocaust. 6 million died. Everyone who says otherwise is a fool and probably a bigot.

But the Jews aren't the only people ever to suffer a holocaust. American Indians, Africans, Armenians, the Roma ("gypsies"), and the Kurds have all had their holocausts. Where are their racially/ethnically/religiously exclusive states? Do they have a right to such states? If they do, then doesn't every ethnic group everywhere have the same right? And wouldn't that mean dividing the world into thousands of tiny nations? Isn't that unfeasible?

And even if you accept the right to establish a Jewish state, it would make little sense to establish it in Palestine. The Palestinians weren't responsible for the Nazi holocaust. In fact, 12,000 of them fought on the side of the Allies. Why not establish the Jewish state in part of Germany? The Jews were only one of many groups to inhabit Palestine over the years.

It's one thing to express a right to self-determination. It's quite another to exercise that right at the expense of other oppressed peoples. Accepting the idea that the Jews had a right to establish an ethnically exclusive state, they still didn't have the right kick people off their land and drive 700,000 of them from their homes.

I am against the idea of a Christian state, an Islamic State, or a Hindu state. I don't see why I should support the idea of a Jewish state.

YOUR AN AMERICAN.

NO DOUBT IT.

Cheers....

"But the Jews aren't the only people ever to suffer a holocaust. American Indians, Africans, Armenians, the Roma ("gypsies"), and the Kurds have all had their holocausts. Where are their racially/ethnically/religiously exclusive states? Do they have a right to such states? If they do, then doesn't every ethnic group everywhere have the same right? And wouldn't that mean dividing the world into thousands of tiny nations? Isn't that unfeasible?"

Answer: The difference is these people, though horribly persecuted and murdered were not deliberately marked for extermination. American-Indians as well as Africans were thought to be on bottom end of the evolutionary ladder (look up the germ theory) i.e. they were dying off anyway, a murder here or there would help it along, but they would be extinct shortly so...why bother
Indians are American citizens, African-Americans are US citizens. Africans have their various countries. Armenians are in an area called guess what Armenia. Gypsy's have no country they call home, and Kurds (if they had no oil) would once again have the republic of Kurdistan.

"And even if you accept the right to establish a Jewish state, it would make little sense to establish it in Palestine. The Palestinians weren't responsible for the Nazi holocaust. In fact, 12,000 of them fought on the side of the Allies. Why not establish the Jewish state in part of Germany? The Jews were only one of many groups to inhabit Palestine over the years."


Answer: Wow! 12th out of 300 million, (better keep quiet about that one). Jews are a part of the Middle-East. Their presence has always been a factor in Israel and it is our ancestral homeland. There are three reasons why Israel exists.
1. given to the people of Israel by G-d
2. the land was legally bought
3. UN vote
Why don't the Arabs go to Jordon which was created as an Arab state?


"It's one thing to express a right to self-determination. It's quite another to exercise that right at the expense of other oppressed peoples. Accepting the idea that the Jews had a right to establish an ethnically exclusive state, they still didn't have the right kick people off their land and drive 700,000 of them from their homes.I am against the idea of a Christian state, an Islamic State, or a Hindu state. I don't see why I should support the idea of a Jewish state"

Answer: Israel is not an ethnically exclusive state. Nor is it a religiously exclusive state. It is an open and free democracy for its citizens
.

>>The difference is these people, though horribly persecuted and murdered were not deliberately marked for extermination.<<

The Roma were also targets of the Nazis, the only other population targeted on racial/ethnic grounds.

"Determining the percentage or numbers of Roma who died in the Holocaust (called the Porrajmos, 'paw-RYE-mos,' in Romani, a word that means 'the Devouring') is not easy," according to Hancock's encyclopedia article. "Much of the Nazi documentation still remains to be analyzed, and many murders were not recorded, since they took place in the fields and forests where Roma were apprehended."

In December of that year, the first known reference to "The Final Solution of the Gypsy Question" appeared in a document signed by SS Chief Heinrich Himmler.

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/othervictims2.htm

G-D gave them the land So?

Why don't the Arabs go to Jordon which was created as an Arab state?

So you advocate the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians?

To be sure, rini's not advocating and celebrating ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, but rather of those "so-called Palestinians".

Not quite sure what "legally bought" means, unless that's in reference to the 1950 'Absentee Property Law' (i.e., state seizure of all lands of the thousands of Palestinians driven out by what would become the "Israeli" military).

As for that UN vote, GA187 was just as non-binding as the dozens of other General Assembly resolutions that generations of Israeli politicians thumb their noses at for sport.

At least that "new-left = neo-nazi" schtick was dropped ages ago.

To be sure, rini's not advocating and celebrating ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, but rather of those "so-called Palestinians".

so you admit there is no Palestine or Palestinian people.a good start

Not quite sure what "legally bought" means,

that means money exchanged with the rightful owner for possession of said property

at least that "new-left = neo-nazi" schtick was dropped ages ago.

no it hasn't!

so you admit there is no Palestine or Palestinian people.a good start

No, I was correcting Darranar on what your views of them are.

that means money exchanged with the rightful owner for possession of said property

Could you provide an example of this happening?

What do you think of what I said about GA187 ("partition")?

--at least that "new-left = neo-nazi" schtick was dropped ages ago.
no it hasn't!

Oh, my mistake. Go back to pasting Dore Gold's rants or whatever it was you were doing.

.

n/t

:crazy:

Answer: The difference is these people, though horribly persecuted and murdered were not deliberately marked for extermination. American-Indians as well as Africans were thought to be on bottom end of the evolutionary ladder (look up the germ theory) i.e. they were dying off anyway, a murder here or there would help it along, but they would be extinct shortly so...why bother Indians are American citizens, African-Americans are US citizens. Africans have their various countries. Armenians are in an area called guess what Armenia. Gypsy's have no country they call home, and Kurds (if they had no oil) would once again have the republic of Kurdistan.

This is just wrong. American Indians were marked for extermination throughout American history. African Americans were at times. Sometimes, they were just enslaved, and died in the process; but they would not have been enslaved had they not been African Americans. Remember, not all of the concentration camps were technically death camps. A significant number of Jews were just worked to death.

The Roma situation ("gypsy" is like calling an Asian American "oriental") is actually very similar to that of the Jews. The Roma have been specifically marked for extermination throughout history. Thousands of them died in the Nazi holocaust. Even today, they're eyed with suspicion and hatred in every corner of the world.

The Roma originated in Hindustan. For reasons not quite clear, they migrated from that land thousands of years ago. Similarly, the Jews originated in Palestine. Some of them have always stayed there. Others were expelled.

Palestine was not widely considered a Jewish homeland in the sense that you mean until after World War II.

While there are many African states, there's no state specifically for diaspora Africans. And while both African Americans and American Indians are American citizens, they're unquestionably oppressed minorities within the country. And besides, Jews in 1948 were entitled to citizenship in almost every country (and still are).

You dodge the question of the Kurds completely. As for the Armenians: their state is not ethnically exclusive. There is no Law of Return. There are no villages that go unrecognized due to their inhabitants' ethnicity. And more importantly, their holocaust has been forgotten by history (thanks in no small part to supposedly pro-Israel groups who want a monopoly on the term).

Answer: Wow! 12th out of 300 million, (better keep quiet about that one).

When has the population of Palestine ever been 300 million?

Jews are a part of the Middle-East.

Certainly. And they deserve political, civil, and religious rights and liberties in every country of the Middle East and of the world.

Their presence has always been a factor in Israel and it is our ancestral homeland.

This is trickier.

If by Israel you mean the entirety of the area that currently makes up Israel and the Occupied Territories, then you're wrong. Before the Israelites, the land was inhabited by the Canaanites. The biblical myths have been largely shown to be false. The Israelites didn't invade Canaan from outside the land. Rather, they were one of many tribes that inhabited the area. They managed to conquer a large portion of it, but never the whole thing. The Western hills (at the very least) were always inhabited by non-Israelites, who interbred. These are the peoples from whom most modern-day Palestinians are descended.

Jews have always remained in Palestine, and they have a right to live there if they so desire. These Jews are also Palestinians, as defined in the PLO charter.

But there's a difference between living in harmony with the other peoples and oppressing them, which is what Israel has done.

Zionism was a colonial phenomenon. Most Jews were not Zionists until after World War II. It cannot be considered a legitimate exercise of the right of nations to self-determination.

Furthermore, many Jews at the time of the establishment of Israel had no real connection to the land. There are documented cases of Zionists getting Gentiles to convert to Judaism for the sole purpose of speeding up the colonization of Palestine. Many Russian Jews were converts to Judaism, but probably had no Israelite ancestors.

There are three reasons why Israel exists.
1. given to the people of Israel by G-d

Muslims can (and do) make the same argument. Some groups of Orthodox Jews argue against it, calling Zionism a heresy.

Personally, I'm an atheist, so I think this argument is bunk. And apparently, so do Israelis, most of whom consider themselves secularists.

2. the land was legally bought

Arguable. The Palestinians Arabs had communally tended the land for generations. The Ottoman Land Code was passed w/o any real knowledge or understanding on their part. But the Ottoman Land Code only said that the Arabs who communally tended the land had to register the land. Instead, rich Arabs who were adapt at manipulating the law registered the land (wrongly at best, illegally at worst) in their names. Then they sold what wasn't theirs to the Zionists.

Some of the land was simply stolen. And many of the settlers were illegal immigrants anyway.

Jews only owned 6 percent of the land in Palestine when Israel declared independence. So obviously, a lot of the land in the area that was to become Israel wasn't given up willingly.

In addition, even more land was taken by Israel in the 1948 war.

3. UN vote
Why don't the Arabs go to Jordon which was created as an Arab state?

3. UN vote

The UN never voted to establish Israel. The General Assembly recommended a provisional partition. The General Assembly doesn't have the power to make decisions that are legally binding. And besides, the partition was only supposed to be temporary, to test the feasibility of the plan.

Why don't the Arabs go to Jordon which was created as an Arab state?

The Arabs are a diverse group. The only thing they all have in common is language. Palestinians and Jordanians are as different as Americans and Canadians, or Mexicians and Chileans.

More to the point, the Palestinians' property, places of birth, etc. are not located in Jordan.

Why don't all the Jews move to NYC?

Answer: Israel is not an ethnically exclusive state. Nor is it a religiously exclusive state. It is an open and free democracy for its citizens

"Exclusive" means "tending to exclude". By that criterion, Israel is certainly an ethnically exclusive state.

The Law of Return is the most obvious example. Any Jew anywhere in the world can "return" to a place s/he's never seen; yet a Palestinian who was born there cannot.

There's also the matter of the Jewish National Fund, which manages over 90 percent of the land in Israel, and won't sell to Arabs.

There's the selective enforcement of housing regulations that's resulted in de facto segregation.

There's the inferior public services provided to the Palestinians.

There's the fact that only Jews are recruited into the military, and thus get the social services that come with it; and that rabbinical students are exempted from service, with no penalty.

There's a great deal of economic discrimination against Palestinians.

There's the persecution of Arab political leaders and the legal prohibition of any political party challenging the "character" of the Jewish state.

There are scores of unrecognized Arab villages, most of which existed long before the state of Israel.

And, of course, there's the reason discriminatory marriage law.

I don't. And I don't support the non-Islamist ones either, since they're undemocratic.

With a Kurdish state, a Basque state, etc. Frankly, I have no problem with a Palestinian state if they can ever work out a peace treaty. We have an Irish state for the Irish. We have a Japanese state for the Japanese. We have a variety of micro states for what's left of the Native American population. Why not a Jewish state for, gasp, the Jewish people?

As for dividing the world, the concept of states is constantly in flux. Ultimately, maybe we'll get to one world state, but none of us will live to see it.

Where to establish the "Jewish state" is a matter of academics at this point. The Jewish state IS established. No going back on that one.

The Jews DON'T have an ethnically exclusive state. The nation of 6 million has over a million non-Jewish citizens.

You oppose "a Christian state, an Islamic State, or a Hindu state," but those are religions. Judaism is religious, cultural and ethnic.

except in regard to your last point: You oppose "a Christian state, an Islamic State, or a Hindu state," but those are religions. Judaism is religious, cultural and ethnic.

Islam and Christianity certainly have some cultural features to them, though we agree that they are not ethnic. But the fact remains that Israel treats Judiasm as a religion; people who are Jews ethnically but have converted of free will don't gain the special benefits that Jews do, and people who convert are also granted such privileges.

Personally, I see no problem with seperate states because of religious differences if a religion is persecuted, though.

Surely in Europe and especially the Middle East, anti-Jewish sentiment is alive and well (though it's not nearly as prominent as it used to be). But in the United States, anti-Semitism primarily takes the form of prejudice against Arabs.

Really, if anti-Jewish hatred or discrimination were as much of a problem as you make it out to be, Muddle, Schroder wouldn't have said anything about it. There would have been no outrage.

The same goes for France, where we're supposed to ignore incidents of anti-Arab violence, but suffer heart attacks when someone vandalizes a Jewish graveyard. Both heinous acts, no doubt -- but equally heinous.

There will always be bigots. Politicans have made disparaging comments about Jews, among other groups, in the U.S. too (though you probably didn't notice the others, since you apparently think that Only Jews Suffer and Suffering Only Affects Jews). But their opinions usually aren't those of middle America.

link, please, to "...in the United States, anti-Semitism primarily takes the form of prejudice against Arabs."

Schroeder said what he said because of the despicable history he represents (as current figurehead, not personally).

link, please to your comments on France, a country with very large Arab and muslim populations.

Your last paragraph contains some pretty tall assumptions. You are, of course, correct with "There will always be bigots."; but, where did you come up with "...you probably didn't notice the others ..."?

Yes, Americans who have fought two wars against the Arab world and are recent victims of a major act of Arab terrorism have anger at Arabs. In fact, since the Arab world pretty much lined up with the old Soviet Union, I would say our issues go back further than that. But there is still a lot of anti-Jewish activity in the U.S. as well.

Sure Schroder said something, he IS a politician.

The incidents of anti-Arab violence in France are going to continue to drop as the Muslim population of that nation grows. I don't the anti-Jewish acts will drop.

You are right that there will always be bigots. But Jewish people have suffered such bigotry for 2,000 years. Israel is the one place where they can be guaranteed it won't happen.

<pray>Please let it be someone from the right... please let it be someone from the right...</pray>
<click>
YES!!!!! :evilgrin:

But really, what was I worrying about? Silly me.

I am very left; however, I am also very pro-Israel.

Can you handle the cognitive dissonance or must you place everything into neat little boxes in order to cope with the complexities of life?

In his speech, Hohmann claimed that the ``currently dominant political class and science in Germany'' were obsessed with atoning for the Holocaust.

He concluded by arguing that the point was not to blame the Germans for Nazi crimes or Jews for those of the Bolsheviks, but rather ``the godless with their godless ideologies.''


These are indeed "code words," so aptly refined by the US Republican Party, to appeal to the Nazi crowd.

It's disgusting.

Moreover, the clown is saying that atheists are fair game for bigots.

:puke:

Would you kindly refer all the negative posters here of your facts?

Yes, one by one, please. LOL

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

As I am going through this thread, I can't tell you what a good break your message has provided.

:yourock:

"Neither Germans nor Jews were perpetrators," he added.

But he said that after the harm was done. This was straight out of Josef Goebbels's propaganda book!

He also denied all requests to resign in the same interview, adding that "he was elected because of his clear words". Using those "clear words" he continued to cite anti-semitic pseudo-historians (Ford among them) and made another remark I won't repeat here (still left speechless).

I wonder how he managed to run in his district again - only now his earlier remarks get dissected by the media.
Other highlights are:
-Opposition against the Holocaust Memorial
-Anti Gay (Saying: "toleration of homosexuality is Germany's biggest problem")
- Attack against the Chairman of the German Jewish Council, Paul Spiegel, because of justified remarks made by Spiegel. This was before the last elections and very similiar to the recent speech - he was allowed to go on.
-A PBS show potraied him and other far-right anti-semitic CDU VIPS (PMs and Governors) a year ago. Although the Party secretary-general pledged to "look into it" no action has followed.

Europe 60 Percent of Europeans See Israel as Threat to Peace

VOA News
01 Nov 2003, 06:44 UTC


A new survey reportedly shows that six out of 10 Europeans view Israel as a greater threat to world peace than North Korea, Iran or Afghanistan.

A report published in the Paris-based International Herald Tribune says Europeans participating in the October poll were given a list of 15 countries and asked if any of them present a threat to world peace. Fifty nine percent said Israel was a threat.

Eighty percent of those surveyed said Europe should be more involved in the Middle East peace process.

The poll, called the Eurobarometer, was conducted for the European Commission. Results are expected to be made public Monday. Survey encompassed 7,400 people. Five hundred in each of the 15 member states of the European Union.

An international Jewish organization dedicated to the memory of the Holocaust calls the survey's results "shocking" and "racist." The Simon Wiesenthal Center says the result "defies logic" and shows that "anti-Semitism is deeply embedded within European society."

The poll also found that about two thirds of respondents think the war in Iraq was unjustified, and that the United States should pay the full costs of Iraq's reconstruction. More than half (54 percent) oppose sending any European peacekeepers to Iraq.

Some information for this report provided by AFP.
---------

it is quite another to hate Jews for being Jews.

Modern anti-Semitism began in the 19th century as a reaction to socialism, and accelerated in the early 20th century as a reaction to Bolshevism. Never mind that Stalin, unlike Lenin, was an anti-Semite.

between modern anti-semitism and anti-Jewishness. But the guy is still an @#$%#@

Never let it be said that I don't acknowledge something of this caliber...no matter what has gone on in other forums.

Thank you, IndianaGreen.

I'm german, too. Just a few hours ago, I checked the forum of germans most important and most-seen daily news (Tagesschau) about this CDU-Nazi.
About 95% of the people, contributing there, made antisemitic remarks of the worst kind. And this board is moderated!
During the last years, I had a lot to do with german engineers, doctors, rather small businessman. Before I've mainly seen universities from inside. And the amount of antisemitism in Germany is still incredible. It's not on the surface, but after two beers, you better close your ears.
It's disgusting. How studies show, the amount of people, who have fashist and antisemitic tendencies is even greater among voters for the social democrats than voters of the conservative party, this asshole is a member of.
I'm not in the mood to differentiate anymore. I just wish I had 20 million jewish-bolshevist-wallstreet comrades here to fight these idiots.
Dirk

Whoever THE Germans might be.

I notice too, that there is anti-semitism in my country. It always was, unfortunately it always will might be. That's why we had riots after the fall of the Berlin wall, when the mob tried to kill foreigners after they stormed a refugee camp (a house) in Eastern Germany.

Yes, BUT it is a problem in all Western societies. Just look where the rightwing propaganda is being manufactured: You can order this horrible Nazi-music from Scandinavian states, some Scandinavian countries are actually famous amoung right-wing circles for that.
From where comes some of the worst Nazi-propaganda into our country? From the USA. Neo-Nazis here use the Internet to buy this disgusting rightwing trash from abroad, because it's not allowed to offer it within the German borders.

And let me tell you something that really bothers me: Since a couple of years I have a colleague at work who, everytime we start discussing politics, delivers some anti-semit comments. He almost always refers to "THE Jews" doing this, doing that. It's amazing how he always manages to refer to them in almost every context. It IS absurd and it is always me and my co-workers to point out that we're not interested in his subtle anti-jewish comments.
And before I forget to mention it: The co-worker I'm talking about is British.

The speech of Mr. Hohmann caused an uproar in Germany. Since Hohmann made his comments it is being discussed in the news here. The most important newscast ("Tagesschau") featured is prominently during the evening news. And none of the mainstream commentators have any sympathy for Mr. Hohmann.
No less than *all* of the comments I have read or watched show either astonishment or contempt.

one academic comrade?

anti-semitism should not be tolerated. Hatred and bigotry towards any ethnic group or religion must be condemned in the strongest terms possible.

and would have rented a garage in some desert, half the world would spent half of their time to argue, if they just violate human rights to a certain extent or if they secretly rule the world.
Israel isn't offended, because of what they do to the palestines, Israel is offended 99,99% of the times, because Israel is weak, because they only survive because of a massive support through the US government.
99 out of 100 people in this world, who wouldn't dare to offend their own government, who let happen everything without fighting back are the first to offend Israel for violating human rights. I guess they didn't even know the term "human rights" before. I'm so tired of this shit.

The democrats and liberals and leftists and antifashists in this world should shut their mouth about Israel, untill they can guarantee to all the jews in this world that they are safe, wherever they live and wherever they go.
I'm so desperate about this. And instead of simply deciding to exclude this guy of their party, just a kind of bigot excuse is asked for.
Can't you stupid americans withdraw your troops from Iraq and send them to Germany again. I welcome you with liberation flags, you don't have to fake this video!
Dirk

Why should we stop criticizing Israel's ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians?

And why should we support mor emoney going to a Sharon regime?

And why should we believe the victimization myths about how "little" and "weak" Israel is?

how big is your reality? If "weak" is a myth, could you please explain to me, why Israelis are taking just one cent from a right-wing-extremists-christian-fundamentalist like Bush?

It always starts with a german nazi-pig, claiming that the jews started it all from communism to the wallstreet and ends with an american who's asking, what's wrong about criticizing Israel.
Maybe I'm more aware of this because I'm a german, but this is about ideology much more than it is about reality. It's not about how legitimate it is to criticize Sharon, it's about proportions and relations and the role and functions within a discourse.
The jews where somehow always a scapegoat for capitalism, antisemitism was always a kind of socialism for the dumb, and it's more popular than ever before today. How many people died because of actions of the IMF and the Worldbank during the last decades, how many more will die. How many died for the interests of german, canadian, american and japanese corporations? Israel is very very small compared to this. But for so many people - many are just stupid sheeps, some know what they are doing - Israel is still the target Nr. 1.
Dirk

Never Change...

DEUTSCHLAND ERWACHE!!

btw:
wonder if they have problems with people trying to fly swastikas on gov't buildings (like here and confed flags)?

Because not all Jews are safe, does that mean that the refuge is immune from criticism?

would you please take a look at and possibly even participate in the forum on DU called I/P?

I'm 39 years old and I just had one nazi in my family (the father of my father).

I'm kind of a leftwinger since I'm 13. Jewish bolshevists have spoiled me:-). Whenever you look at Germany, never forget that what german jews and non-jewish germans have produced in the 19th and 20th century could only be compared to the renaissance. This is something that is nearly never mentioned. From Freud to Marx to Kafka to Rosa Lusemburg to Mahler to Adorno to Husserl to Einstein. When germans talk about the Shoa it's almost a kind of WE and THEM thing. But it wasn't! The best germans died in the concentration camps. If they were jews or communists or socialists or journalists. And THIS war was won by the Nazis. They have destroyed the german labour movement, they have destroyed german literature, they have destroyed german social-science, they have destroyed the psychoanalytic movement forever.
When I was young - and somehow I regret this somehow not - without having any knowledge about Israeal, I just felt so good about myself, being fair. I just thought, it would show how balanced I am, offending Israel. I just thought, being a german leftwinger, who is fighting rightwingers, racists and fashists wherever I meet them - and I really did - it just shows, how mature I am, if I critizise Israel, 'cause I don't make a difference.
At least since the First Gulf War, I completely changed my mind. And never before, I understood how deeply antisemitism is established in our world and what it really is. If we would live in a fair world and if all the jews in this world would be safe, wherever they live, noone would be called an antisemit because he or she is critizising Israel, but we don't live in a fair world. And to criticise Isreal somehow always means more... I can go, wherever I want to go. Even if I would be illegal, I would just be illegal, but they can't. Less than ever.
Dirk

What happened to the Jewish people in Nazi Germany was appalling,
and should never happen again. But it is happening, to the
Palestinians in Israel, and it is no less appalling now than it
was back then. The Israelis are treating the Palestinians exactly
as they were treated - first demonising them as sub-humans, then
legally classifying them as second-class citizens. Their homes
are raided and then bulldozed, women and children left in the street
to fend for themselves. They are not put in concentration camps,
just confined behind a huge concrete wall, and cut off from their
schools, friends and family, and their places of work, deprived of
the right to make a living or to move around their country - and I
stress "their" country - and, ultimately, they will be forced to
leave the land of their ancestors or they will die. If that's not
ethnic cleansing, what is?

of why I invite you to join in at the forum I/P to be found under 'Foreign Relations'.

The Nazis first took the best of the Germans; those opposed to their incipient policies.

And, to my own country's shame, the USA accepted many nazis in order to use them in our space and other programs.

Don't feel any guilt about what you may or may not have done when you were younger. The point is you had the courage to change.

That is a pretty amazing....and moving....statement. Thank you so much.

All Jews ever wanted to do was assimilate. Yet they were always considered "Jews" first. Even here on these boards you will see Senator Lieberman (R-Israel) with posters not even giving a moments thought what it means to be considered only "Jew" and not German or American or Moroccan or whatever.

I had never really considered much the death of a German Renaissance with the war. Your perspective has been enlightening.

According to Rules for Posting in the Latest Breaking News Forum, discussion of Israeli/Palestinian issues is not permitted in the Latest Breaking News forum, and instead must be posted in the Israeli/Palestinian Affairs forum. If, however, the news item is primarily about U.S. policy in Israeli/Palestinian affairs, you may post it in the Latest Breaking News forum. This news item, however, is not primarily about U.S. policy nor was it about I/PA -- but the discussion has digressed (again) into that realm, lacking in civility. Therefore, I'm locking this thread.

Thank you for your understanding and cooperation,
TahitiNut - DU moderator