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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:34 PM
Original message
CNN Breaking: Shots fired on an American Airlines plane - Miami
Edited on Wed Dec-07-05 02:35 PM by VolcanoJen
Breaking now, searching for link.

CNN has confirmed that the shots were fired aboard the plane by a Federal Air Marshall. The AA flight #924 originated in Medellin, Columbia, with a stopover in Miami. Shots rang out as the plane sat on the tarmac.

I'll update with a link and more details as they emerge.
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flamingyouth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
1. There's a banner up on cnn.com
How scary. :scared:
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. There's a SWAT team moving in
Looks like some kind of stand-off. :scared:
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
2. Link:
Shots Fired On American Airlines Flight At MIA

POSTED: 2:17 pm EST December 7, 2005
UPDATED: 2:33 pm EST December 7, 2005

MIAMI -- A passenger on an American Airlines flight told NBC 6 that shots were fired on an airplane about to depart from Miami International Airport Wednesday afternoon.

Mary Gardner, who was a guest on NBC 6's South Florida Today show Wednesday morning, told NBC 6 the plane was on the runway when a passenger caused a disturbance and an air marshal fired shots.

Miami-Dade fire rescue officials confirmed the shooting.

more: http://www.nbc6.net/news/5485711/detail.html
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SIU_Blue Donating Member (566 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
3. Shots Fired On Board American Airlines Aircraft
Edited on Wed Dec-07-05 02:35 PM by SIU_Blue
CNN breaking, no link yet, apparently at MIA (Miami International Airport) And now they are reporting it was a federal air marshall discharging the weapon.

Edited to include flight number (924) from Medellin, Columbia

Aircraft is a 757
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GrumpyGreg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
37. Thank God for air marshalls. I hate flying anyway.
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Debau2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Unfortunately
My ex's brother is an air marshall. If you want your flight protection to be a James Bond wanabee, then he is for you...I am sure that there are a large number of SUPER QUALIFIED air marshalls in our skies. But the ones I have meet enjoy the benefit of a job that allows the freedom to swagger around with a badge and a gun...It would not surprise me to find out that the ex's brother is the shooter...
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #37
67. On 9-11 only 30 Air Marshalls...today supposedly 'thousands'
Edited on Wed Dec-07-05 03:27 PM by EVDebs
The 9-11 Report in section 3 spoke of this and my question was always, if * read the Aug 6th PDB, why didn't he just increase the number of Air Marshals THEN and THERE ?

But that's water under the bridge.

It's American Airlines Flight 924 I'm hearing...
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
74. AA Flight 924 Miami
Edited on Wed Dec-07-05 03:30 PM by EVDebs
CNN reports passenger is dead now.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
4. Showing police, SWAT(?), rescue vehicles
surrounding the plane
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
6. Kyra Phillips just said, "We're going on a five-second delay."
"We don't want you to have to see somebody getting shot."

WTF?
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MadisonProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. People don't get killed in real life, remember?
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Loonman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. Baloney
Edited on Wed Dec-07-05 02:44 PM by Loonman
The war whores at CNN would love the ratings for that. Kyra is a Bush-ass-kissing slag, anyway.
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #6
22. More like, "...the producer wants to bleep anything stupid I say..."
"...don't want you to have to see somebody getting shot." :eyes:
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dubyaD40web Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
26. What about when people jumped from the Twin Towers?
CNN showed that. F*ck off Kyra!
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #6
35. The American people are very childlike, and immature
Their innocent, Bush-voting, little minds could not handle such graphic footage.

People in more sophisticated cultures are able to reach to such footage in a more adult manner.
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alphadog Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #35
110. Kids are home from school now
and watching tv. I support the 5-second delay.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #110
134. Kids shouldn't be watching CNN
Not all TV programming has to be family friendly 24 hours a day.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #134
165. thank you n/t
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LeighAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #134
309. Kids should watch the news, and often
The best gift my father gave me was limiting my TV viewing with the exception of TV news... I could watch as much of it as I liked, but only two hours a day of the other crap. That's when I became a news hound.
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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #110
293. i support people supervising their kids- and not trying to censor the
universe because they are too damned lazy to.
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
40. After an LA car chase/standoff ended with a guy committing suicide with
a shotgun on live TV, as I recall, some stations put in a delay when there's a possibility that something like that might happen.
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
8. MSNBC said someone made a bomb threat
and for now it seems an Air Marshall fired the gun...now news is saying 2 air marshalls are involved in shooting. Weird.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Well, we know for sure the air marshalls are armed...
there could be crew members armed...

Everyone else is a target or collateral damage.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. Sorry one of those dup report things... It's now on free tv
Edited on Wed Dec-07-05 02:44 PM by HereSince1628
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #8
39. People who make bomb threats should be disposed of
An airplane is not a place for lawyerly legalistic drivel.

People who threaten planes with gestures of bombs or hijacking need to be eliminated. Questions can be asked later.

We have had an active air marshall program for 4 years now. This is the first time someone has been shot. I would not call these folks trigger happy shooters.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #39
73. Anyone "disposing of" someone else better abide by the law.
Or the "questions asked later" will be regarding how they wish to enter a plea.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
9. and the idiots still want to allow knifes back on airplanes
and remove air marshalls to save costs
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
29. And they announce those moves on the internet, so the Terr-rrists...
Edited on Wed Dec-07-05 02:50 PM by Up2Late
...will know they can re-start their "War on America"
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #9
42. So do you have any information someone got attacked...
...with a knife?
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ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
59. You are so right!!
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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #9
70. airline personnel don't want the knives on board but it's OK, according to
...who made this new rule, anyway?
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SIU_Blue Donating Member (566 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
10. Reports now that shots were fired on Jetway and not on the Aircraft
no official word yet.
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
11. Well, I hope he had a damn good reason, "Causing a disturbance"
I think, wouldn't cut it with me.

ALSO: They have brought in extra exit stairs at the back of the Jet too!
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
13. CNN confirms that a passenger was shot
The Federal Air Marshall discharged her weapon against a "threatening" passenger. The passenger was wounded, but not killed, reports CNN.
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Misunderestimator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. I heard "his or her weapon" ...
I don't think they said whether it was a man or woman yet. :shrug:
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Reciprocity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
14. CNN
Edited on Wed Dec-07-05 02:44 PM by Reciprocity
Passenger wounded from shots fired by Fed Air Marshall on board of plane coming from Colombia.
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Misunderestimator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
16. CNN says that a passenger was shot... by an air marshall
while doing something "threatening"
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MadisonProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I hope it was more that 'booga booga boo!'
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. at gate 42...passenger ran screaming about an explosive
at that point the air marshal intervened going onto the jetway
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Man now said to be dead.
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Misunderestimator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. No... they just said he's alive... Hello???
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. CBS special report? Yes, Bob just said WFOR is reporting that
the man was killed.
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Misunderestimator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. CNN is full of crap then, they just said that the passenger was alive
Edited on Wed Dec-07-05 02:50 PM by Misunderestimator
Still says "passenger wounded" on the text at the bottom.

Well, now they show a tape of a body being brought out on a stretcher. Wow... CNN is crap...
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. Of course, early on there is confusion and misinformation...
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Misunderestimator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Really, on the jetway? Why is all this happening in the plane then?
I didn't hear anything about a jetway. They are actually saying that the air marshall opened fire ON the plane.
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. the shots were fired inside the jet bridge...
at least that's what MSNBC is reporting at the moment. Someone started yelling about a bomb and tried exiting the plane. The marshall ran after the person and shot him on the bridge.
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Misunderestimator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Wow! I need to change the channel
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. the first 30 minutes of any story this big is insane
every news channel says something different...they constantly feel the need to speculate wildly before the facts come in. In the past 10 minutes I've heard at least 3 different accounts of what happened. :shrug:
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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #20
76. i hope guy who got shot wasn't screaming that he saw explosives about to
be used
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UpInArms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
25. one person wounded per CBSMarketwatch
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/newsfinder/pulseone.asp?dateid=38693.6145195602-853615325&siteID=mktw&scid=0&doctype=806&property=symb&value=&categories=&

SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- Shots were fired aboard an American Airlines plane that had landed at Miami International Airport, according to media reports on Wednesday. The flight originated from Medellin, Colombia, and a federal official has fired a weapon on the plane, according to broadcast reports. One person has been wounded. American Airlines is owned by AMR Corp.

...short blurb...
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
33. I think we need to wait for all the facts to come out
I hope there is no jumping to conclusions here.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. So a couple of months from now...
Noise and misinformation...it is the Fog of and real LBN
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #34
43. God... I hope this isn't another London Underground shooting
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Suicide bombers usually hit the switch...not go off screaming and running
I am guessing the guy had some sort of mental problem.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. Apparently he doesn't have a "MENTAL PROBLEM" anymore
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #44
127. One of my grad school housemates was on one of the planes
hijacked to Dawsons Field in 1970. The hijackers did scream and yell.

Same thing was reported from United Flight 93 on 9/11.

(I estimate I have 1.2 Million butt in passenger seat real miles).
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Reciprocity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. My thoughts exactly. I'm very interested in what the passengers will have
to say.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. My guess is suicide by Cop
OR Air MArshall, as the case may be.
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merwin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #43
53. The good thing is that there's over 100 witnesses.
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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #53
173. Very very true
judicial system is not totally broken...
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Monkey see Monkey Do Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
38. link (Sun Sentinel)
At least one shot was fired aboard an American Airlines jet that was preparing to takeoff and continue a flight from Colombia to Orlando, news partner NBC 6 reported.

NBC 6 reported that a person was shot to death after some sort of bomb threat was made.

An armed air marshal was reported on the plane.

Flight 942 from American Airlines was en route from Medillin, Colombia, to Orlando and had made a scheduled stop at Miami International Airport when the shooting was reported inside the plane in Concourse D shortly after 2 p.m.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-127miashooting,0,7325539.story?coll=sfla-home-headlines

(Per Channel 4 News, 6 shots were fired)
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
46. NPR just reported that, "...a passenger stood up, yelled that he..."
...had a bomb, and tried to run off the plane when he was was shot by the Air Marshal."
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SteppingRazor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
47. Associated Press link:
via Hartford Courant:

http://www.courant.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-airplane-shooting,0,1614845.story?coll=hc-headlines-home

Source: Shots Fired Aboard Plane in Miami
2:53 PM EST, December 7, 2005
By Associated Press
 
MIAMI -- A federal air marshal opened fire on board an American Airlines flight on the ground at Miami International Airport, according to a law enforcement official who spoke only on condition of anonymity.

At least one person was wounded, according to broadcast reports said. The plane had just arrived from Colombia and was headed to Orlando. Television showed police SWAT officers surrounding the plane.

Airport and Miami-Dade County police officials said they had no immediate comment. Airlines officials did not immediately return calls seeking comment.

According to American Airlines' Web site, Flight 924 arrived from Medellin at 12:16 p.m. It was supposed to depart for Orlando at 2:18 p.m. The site says the flight status is delayed.
Television images from the scene showed armed officers taking up positions around the plane. MSNBC reported that the shooting took place on the jet bridge, between the plane and the terminal.
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wicket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
50. Wonderful, my BF is flying on AA tomorrow
:scared:
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rndmprsn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
51. Shooting Is Reported on Plane at Miami Airport - NYTimes/AP
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/07/national/07wire-plane.html?hp&ex=1134018000&en=d68b777d715880b6&ei=5094&partner=homepage

MIAMI (AP) -- Shots were fired Wednesday from a federal air marshal's gun on board an American Airlines jet that had landed at Miami International Airport, an official said. At least one person was wounded, according to broadcast reports.

A law enforcement official who spoke on condition of anonymity confirmed shots were fired from the marshal's gun.

The plane had just arrived from Colombia and was headed to Orlando, the broadcast reports said. Television images showed police SWAT officers surrounding the plane.

Airport and Miami-Dade County police officials said they had no immediate comment. American Airlines officials had no immediate comment.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
52. Other than the different accounts being reported...
Something is not right about this story. Who the hell threatens to explode a bomb when the plane is taxied? Something is not right.
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wicket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. I agree, this part is weird too
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/12/07/airplane.gunshot/index.html

A federal official told CNN that the passenger was shot by a federal air marshal, who felt the passenger was acting in a threatening manner. A senior administration official added that the passenger claimed to have a bomb in his carry-on luggage.

Whoever this "senior administration official" is, they are certainly on the ball eh?
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #55
60. I'm just very skeptical of everything now.
There's a lot more to this story than meets the eye.
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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #52
58. Patsy...
totally seems stupid and planned
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #58
66. Doesn't make any sense whatsoever...
But then again, when does it ever make sense to blow yourself and everyone else for a message? :shrug:
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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #66
92. So they shot a crazy person who was freaking out....
AGAIN!


I am fucking sick of this. I hate our government. I HATE WHAT AMERIKA HAS BECOME. I miss the old USA, where people have rights of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. WHERE PEOPLE ARENT SHOT IN COLD BLOOD EVEN THO THEY ARE OBVIOUSLY CRAZY!!!



THE KILLED AN AUTISTIC MAN IN MY HOME TOWN JUST LAST WEEK. Crime: freaking out! They Tasared him to death. Mother of God in Heaven... CURSE THEM!


CURSE THEM!


CURSE THEM!!!


D
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alphadog Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #92
108. How were they supposed to know...
that he didn't have a bomb, dearie? Crazy people may be harmless, but crazy people may also be dangerous. When you're trying to protect the safety of a plane-load of people, you can't risk all of their lives by betting on crazy-harmless. It's sad, but true.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #92
146. I'm on the marshall's side on this one.
Sorry.
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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #146
170. I am too mostly,but could they have used less than deadly force?
Or rechecked the scanning images and assess the 'likelihood' of this 'bomb'? They need to plan for kookoos happening MORE OFTEN than real terrorists...Just saying...


Why we always have to side on overkill for =everything= now?


How many mentally ill people are killed EVERY DAY by cops who overreact?


I don't know the answer, but it happened in MY HOME TOWN JUST LAST MONTH!

see here:

http://www.journal-topics.com/dp/05/dp051123.1.html

Police tasared to death an autistic man... and it just goes on and on...
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #170
176. Airports, especially international airports, have a different set of
rules because they're considered US boundaries. What happens there, and what happens in small town or urban USA, is a different matter.
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rayofreason Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #170
246. "rechecked the scanning images"
Excuse me. Could you please stop screaming "I have a bomb!" while I check your scanning images? Thanks so much. Could you please put the bag back on the belt - I didn't get a good image. Yes, that's it. Thank you. Officer, would you mind taking a look here and see what you think? Yes, you can bring your gun. No, you cannot continue to point it at the screaming man. It may be a violation of his civil rights.
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anotherdrew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #146
250. soon - bombs will be triggered to go off automaticly if the person is shot
then what?
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #52
65. This is a Test, This is Only a Test - Should this be a Real Emergency
you will never know the difference...
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
54. Wife of suspect reported her husband is bipolar& hadn't taken meds.
Edited on Wed Dec-07-05 03:18 PM by MyPetRock
Maybe this was an act of pure insanity. :shrug:
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. Who's reporting that?
I'm keeping my co-workers informed. That's why I ask.
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. MSNBC
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #57
61. Thanks, MPR. n/t
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JesterCS Donating Member (627 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #56
62. Yeha MSNBC
Also saying he was fatally shot. Were talking to a passenger on a cell fone about it.. Apparently the plane had pulled up, stopped. and the guy jumped up and ran towards the exit frantically. Seconds later his wife running after him screaming " my husband, my husband! " Air Marshalls immediately stood up and told him to get down on the ground, resisted, he reached into his bag, they said it again, he didnt listen, they shot him.

Thats all I know.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #62
71. Good God...
Thanks for the report. That's some crazy stuff. I hope that the reports of his death are wrong then... Sheesh. Couldn't they have disabled him by shoooting in the legs? :shrug:
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #71
75. If they thought he had a bomb, they'd shoot to kill and blow his head off
Edited on Wed Dec-07-05 03:28 PM by Zynx
Police generally aren't trained to shoot-to-wound, and I *really* doubt they would even try in a situation where the guy claims to have explosives.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #75
85. The hell they're not trained.
If they are trained to kill, they're trained in how to wound a man without incurring a fatality.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #85
88. Can you cite us a credible source for this statement please?
If they are trained to kill, they're trained in how to wound a man without incurring a fatality.

BS
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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #85
137. Law enforcement officials are trained to kill
Or in their own words, "to stop the oncoming threat". Wounding a man does not prevent him from shooting back or reaching for another gun.
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crankybubba Donating Member (818 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #137
183. 100% true
you are tought to stop the threat and to shoot at center mass pf an individual. I was tought to shoot 2 rounds to the chest and 1 to the head at 7 yards
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #85
193. Please provide a link.
I know of no agency or military that trains their personnel to shoot to wound. That endangers everybody.
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Milspec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #85
248. If they are trained to kill, they're trained in how to wound a man without
Thats nonsense
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Centered Donating Member (295 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #85
275. you aim for "center mass"
the biggest possible target... and you kill.
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alphadog Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #71
115. If he had a bomb...
Edited on Wed Dec-07-05 03:56 PM by alphadog
he still would have been able to detonate, that's why they wouldn't shoot him in the legs.
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #54
63. just heard that reported on MSRNC by a passenger
Edited on Wed Dec-07-05 03:23 PM by musette_sf
So if the guy was bi-polar, not a good idea to fly without his medication. (Passenger indicated that suspect's wife said he was BP and had not had his meds. Not sure how the hell that happens.)

In any case, I don't know what the screening process is at Medellin airport, but as it was an AA flight, would not AA measures be in effect at any airport? as in, wouldn't it be close to impossible to board with an explosive device in carry-on luggage?

If the above is true, then we've got some trigger-happy air marshalls out there. Happy Holidays Merry Fucking Christmas, American travelers!
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #63
68. Medellin is the Cocaine Capital. What screening?
Edited on Wed Dec-07-05 03:27 PM by Zynx
Airlines other than El Al don't generally run security screening and the local authorities in Colombia are extremely corrupt and intimidated.
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #68
89. Edit: victim boarded in Miami, not Colombia
Edited on Wed Dec-07-05 03:38 PM by musette_sf
I would find it hard to believe that American Airlines would let just anyone board with any damn thing at a non-US airport. I believe TSA regulations are in place for any airport that flies to the US. The AA site for Latin America, in the baggage information section, refers to TSA regulations and baggage screening.

Besides, we're halfway friendly with Colombia, they're still playing by Bu$hCo rules. If the flight had been from Venezuela, then I might have expected to see some shit fly, had the suspect not ended up to be a mentally ill person.

On edit: the guy boarded in Miami. So if all this bullshit screening doesn't work, the FAA and TSA will have to admit it now. If the guy made it through screening, then air marshalls had better learn that maybe you don't kill the harmless psycho if he has made it through screening. Some serious firearms and SOP training appears to be in order for the air marshalls.
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alphadog Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #89
119. If I'm on that plane
and a guy is screaming "I have a bomb," I don't want the air marshall making the judgment that this is a "harmless psycho" thanks.
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #119
208. if the air marshall is doing his job
He should (a) have a flight manifest with seating assignments for each stop on the route; (b) be actively comparing the passengers on the plane to the manifest at all transfer locations. Don't you think?

How would you like it if you were in the path of bullets, fired at someone who turned out to be a harmless psycho? Maybe you wouldn't be in such a rush to let air marshalls shoot at will.

Air marshall should have been aware that the passenger boarded in Miami and had passed gate screening. Especially if his wife is screaming stuff about how he's bi-polar. Air marshall should have also been trained to wound and disable the subject, not shoot to kill.

I'm not for this wholesale permit to murder innocent people. The worst that should have happened to this guy was to be disabled, and then investigated.

Do you think the innocent guy in the London subway should have been killed too?
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #208
216. do you think the 50+ innocent subway passengers
should have been killed?
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #216
238. An incident of violence
be it caused by terrorists, "terrorists", or crazy people, does not justify the killing of an innocent person in overzealous policing, where law enforcement shoots first and asks questions later.

The murder of that innocent man in the London subway did not bring back any of the 50+ people who died. It didn't save anyone else from dying. It did, however, seem to give fuel to people like you, in defending irresponsible policing that is a threat to the citizenry at large, and a threat to personal freedoms.

This whole world has gone crazy with Wild West style "law and order".

My own personal opinion is that the world powers that be want us to live this way, so they can steal everything they can steal, while we shake in fear of the boogeymen they've set in front of us to distract us.

I saw this afternoon that the bomb squads were blowing up other people's checked luggage from the AA Miami plane. What a bunch of bullshit. How convenient that the bi-polar guy chose Florida to go batshit, since Jebbie will approve any kind of ridiculous "counter-measures" to try and scare the sheep some more over nothing. This whole incident was a Bu$h Crime Family Christmas Dream come true.

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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #238
279. I doubt it
believe it or not there are terrorists in the world. it is not wise to mess around on an airplane or at the airport.
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #279
297. I'm more worried about McVeighs and Rudolphs
than I am about furriner terrrrrsts.

I'm more worried about DeLays and Abramoffs than I am about furriner terrrrrsts, for that matter.

Unfortunately, our corporate and government owned media may never let us know the truth about this event. Based on the track record of the media and our so-called law enforcement so far, I'm of the opinion that the massive cover-up was in progress before this ever got reported.
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RaulGroom Donating Member (331 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #238
289. Subway shooting and this are two completely different situations
You shouldn't conflate them as it hurts your argument. The subway shooting was unambiguosly bad policing and a horrible overreaction to basically nothing at all. This on is much more of a gray area. I guarantee you the guy who shot this person feels horrible about it, and there are definitely things in hindsight that could have been done differently. But try to put yourself in the position of an air marshall who's on a plane with a man who is screaming about how he's going to blow everyone up. Before you say "I would have done this" or "I would have done that" really put yourself in that situation and think about what you would really do.

Now, as is often the case with these sorts of things, we may find in the coming days that some of the reports we've heard about the situation are not true. For example, we might find out he really never mentioned a bomb. That will cast the whole thing in a different light.

From what he have right now, however, it seems like this was a terrible tragedy that wasn't really anyone's fault. The air marshalls acted in good faith and made the wrong call. It happens.
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #289
295. I responded to a post asking "what about the subway shootings"
so it is not my argument, the question came from another poster.

Personally, I think your Shit Happens opinion hurts your argument.
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rayofreason Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #208
247. "flight manifest with seating assignments"
Give me a break. I can see the conversation now -

"I've got a bomb"
"Excuse me, could I see your boarding pass?"
"Why"
"I want to check the flight manifest with seating assignments to see if you are a mad bomber or simply disturbed"
"Why yes, here is my boarding pass"
"Thank you. Just as I thought. You are just bipolar, so I don't have to shoot you! Carry on."
"Thanks very much, and thanks for the consideration. I've got a bomb!!!"
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #68
97. You get screened at the Medellin airport. Give me a break.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #97
114. Screened by the Colombians. Who generally don't want to get killed.
Edited on Wed Dec-07-05 03:56 PM by Zynx
Security at Colombian airports is not run by American airlines or the American government. It's run by the locals.

Of course, you probably believe Colombia is a safe place to harass people who are carrying drugs as well. Police officer in Colombia or Mexico is not a safe profession.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #114
122. American Airlines has their own passenger screening in Colombia
after you go through Colombian government security in the airports. You go through it again at the American Airlines gates.

regardless, didn't the guy board in Miami??
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #114
139. I've been screened at Colombian airports. It seems pretty much...
...the same as anywhere else.

The rest of your comment is a non sequitur.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #68
132. American Airlines does their own screening in Colombia
the tightest security I've ever witnessed was in Colombia. they even sometimes X-ray people. of course that is where the corruption comes in.

People have to pay for their own X-rays.

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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #68
138. I've been flying back and forth to Colombia for more than 30 years
They have tougher security there than we do here. They may be corrupt, but they're not intimidated.
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #138
212. thank you
I rest my case. Anyway, passenger boarded in Miami, so air marshall should have been aware of that, and that he had passed FAA screening of hand luggage there.

I'm frustrated with all the would-be Wyatt Earps wanting to shoot to kill, when logic would dictate that disabling the subject would be the proper course of action. It's not like the air marshalls are shooting from, oh, the Texas Book Depository, for example. Cops are taught to shoot to disable at close range if logic dictates that this is the proper course of action.

Who the hell are they hiring as air marshalls? Hotheads from Florida ("Castle" statute widened beyond any possible logic thanks to Fat Petulant Jebbie)?
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truthisfreedom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #54
64. more than 4 years after 9-11, we shoot someone who's mentally ill and no
threat?

gahh.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #64
69. No threat? Did you miss the part of him yelling he had a bomb?
That's not a good thing to yell in airports.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #69
91. That is why you investigate to see if it is a threat.
You don't shoot people for yelling things in airports, unless you want to stand trial for murder.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #91
96. And I;m all for having that investigation
once the situation has been stabilized and the plane secured.

That has been done now. So let the investigation begin.

Either way, the air marshall probably will never be an air marshall ever again. His cover has been blown.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #96
102. Not only has his cover been blown, his life may be ruined
Shooting anyone, especially someone who turns out not to have needed it, has to be traumatic.
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #102
153. Not as traumatic as it was for the crazy guy he shot.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #153
156. Or the crazy guy's wife n/t
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Centered Donating Member (295 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #156
276. mental note...
remember to pick up prescription.


This is very sad that this entire thing could have been (possibly) avoided by rememberring to take medicine. But I am still glad those guys are up there.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #96
118. But now is too late -- an innocent man has been shot dead.
Investigation involves confronting him, tracking him, possibly subduing him. Investigation is not simply hearing him say something, his refusing to obey a non-uniformed person's commands, and then opening fire.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #118
129. Threatening an airplane is a federal crime.
If in fact he did that, that would not make him innocent. OK, he didn't have a bomb, but he should have obeyed the marshall's commands, and all would have ended peacefully. Sometimes law enforcement officers have to make split second decisions that do not leave time for comprehensive investigation. Lives are at stake and a clear and present danger exists. If he was just off his meds, that's unfortunate for him and his family, but the marshall had no way of knowing that at the time, and could not be expected to. So I would ask why did this guy and his wife choose to fly when having him on a plane was safe for anybody.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #129
182. The government does not summarily execute people who make threats.
Edited on Wed Dec-07-05 05:04 PM by The Stranger
So he is as innocent as he can fucking get of the actual crime that we are talking about here -- which is blowing up a plane.

And the marshal did have a way of knowing he was off his meds at the time, and he is expected to do better than this. He could have better ascertained the circumstances before opening fire and committing homicide against an innocent man.
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DonP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #182
200. Yes they do
"The government does not summarily execute people who make threats."

Sure they do.

Try running at a cop in any big city with your hand in your pocket or under your coat screaming "I'm going to kill you M ... F..." at the top of your lungs and watch how the government summarily executes people for making threats.

Making a threat on an aircraft is a federal crime, meds or no meds, the guy wasn't innocent.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #200
222. No one was "running at a copy in a big city with his hand in his pocket
screaming (they) were going to kill (anybody)." The threat we are talking about is one made on an airplane, with no apparent weapon, and with no apparent intent to use a weapon.

And as far as blowing up the plane -- the only thing anyone could use to justify homicide -- he was and remains innocent.

(Did I accidentally log on to Free Republic?)
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #222
272. It was actually OFF the airline, in the Jetway
Which makes it even stranger to me from a security POV. That's a decently isolated, controlled environment.
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lynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #182
209. I'm curious as to how the marshal had a way of knowing the guy was -
- off his meds in that brief period of time between him saying he had a bomb, running off and then inserting his hand into his bag?

The Marshal did what he was hired and trained to do. I agree that its a sad situation and that it could have been prevented had the man only taken his medication.


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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #182
231. Bull.
When a person claims to have a bomb, and one small movement could detonate an explosion that would kill hundreds of people, and that person does not comply with orders immediately, the correct response is to shoot. If the Marshall had not acted, and your precious loved ones were on the plane, and the plane exploded, you would be screaming bloody murder that nothing was done.



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cpamomfromtexas Donating Member (453 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #182
241. He committed suicide when he didn't take his drugs
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #241
282. OMG -- again, the comments about mental illness on DU
People have NO understanding of psychosis, etc. This is bad enough in the real world, but it's unacceptable on DU.

Love the way so many people are praising the air marshals but are damning then man who's dead... even though most of the info the MSM has is coming from those who shot him.
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cpamomfromtexas Donating Member (453 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #282
308. They don't hire Doctors for Air Marshals
If they did, then I'd expect a thorough evaluation.

Other passengers cannot be subjected to dangerous people whether they took their meds or not.

Exactly when should people be expected to be responsible?

Only at home?

And his wife was with him, shouldn't she bear the burden of at least notifying the airline that her husband hadn't taken his meds?

You're talking to the wrong person when it comes to airplanes. The pilots (according to the FAA Regs) are ultimately responsible for what goes on in the airplane. I'm still waiting for someone to blame them! American Airlines contract does not exonerate the pilots when something out of the ordinary takes place.

So frankly, it's sad this happened, but perhaps people should sign waivers that they've taken their meds.
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #118
140. He was not an innocent man...
he was a dangerous individual that could have easily put 100's of lives in danger. I have no sympathy for him.
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #140
149. He was apparently mentally ill, and he had no bomb.
I can understand the argument driven by security concerns that it was necessary to shoot him (although I'm not sure I'm buying it just yet), but the callousness of your post is uncalled for. It seems he WAS an innocent man, just crazy. And he had to die because we're scared to death.
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #149
168. He was NOT an innocent man..
there is nothing callous about my post. If nothing else, he made a threat on an airplane, which is a federal offense. He was guilty of that.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #168
188. Bullshit, people not are summarily executed for making false threats.
So he is innocent and he is not guilty of the crime which we are actually talking about here -- which is having a bomb and blowing up a plane.

If he were to spit on the sidewalk and the marshal murdered him -- he would still be an innocent man even though spitting on the sidewalk is an "offense."
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #168
196. You sound as if you have no problem with people who commit federal crimes
being shot on sight or at the time of the criminal act.

That's the point.

"If nothing else, he made a threat on an airplane, which is a federal offense. He was guilty of that."

True, but do we summarily execute those who commit federal crimes?
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #196
197. You don't get it...
Some people on here want to make this guy out to be a saint, which is far from the truth of the matter.

At the very least, he made a threat towards a couple of hundred people on a plane or in the terminal, and went into his bag as if he was going to detonate something. Would I trade this guys life for the 100's he may have killed? Damn straight.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #197
202. But you're saying he wasn't innocent and he was
If indeed he is mentally ill, and has a psychosis (among other possibilities), he is legally and morally Innocent. That's what people don't like in your posts. I get what you're saying, including the callousness of that statement.
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #168
225. As my (adopted) daughter is bipolar...
...and after years of observing manic blow ups, for you to think with certainty that this man was in any way in control of his actions and words -- and thus "NOT an innocent man" -- shows zero knowledge of the severity of this disease. My daughter has early-onset, rapid-cycling bipolar disorder complicated by pervasive disability disorder (PDD). With PDD, she often misses social stop-and-go cues, creating friction between herself and others; with BP she has no brakes. Once the train starts to get momentum down the tracks the limbic system takes full control and all the cortical brain can remember afterward is a white hot blur. The most cogent thing she ever said to me is, "you know, dad, I hate this; it's like I go to sleep and a huge storm hits, breaking up my life, then I wake up and I'm left with all the consequences".

I very easily can envision a severe BP victimized by a wave of overwhelming anxiety, bolting out of a seat to escape, screaming all kinds of things to scare a clear path in front of them -- and not in any way aware of nor in control of any of it.

Having said that, I do not know if the Marshal acted wrongly. The situation strikes me as more tragic than criminal.
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Catt03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #225
249. Thanks for this
I work in mental health and this just really upsets me. Congress does not fund for mental health services nor prescriptions...in fact we have the worst mental health funding of the developed nations. In fact medicine for bi polar disorder can be as high as $400.00 a month.

It seems that air marshals would be trained to be aware of symptoms and act accordingly, not murder the person.

I am so angry about this if true.
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #249
254. Bills are a lot higher than $400 per month
We're paying closer to $800 per month for meds. Monthly bills while she's hospitalized (which is around 66% of the time since 2001) run $40,000 per month. We're nearly past $1.5 million in health care. We've given serious thought to emigrating to Canada (we need to get this kid in a state or country before she's an adult that provides a sufficient safety net).
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athena Donating Member (771 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #225
258. I'm so sorry about your daughter.
I've had mild-to-moderate depression for 6-10 years now; it's horrible. I can't imagine what it would be like to be severely depressed or bipolar. Bipolar people do make some of the best artists and writers, though.

Most normal people are irrationally afraid of flying; it's no wonder that someone with a mental disorder would have a more severe reaction. This is extremely sad. I feel so awful for that poor man and his wife.
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Thorandmjolnir Donating Member (390 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #140
278. How could he do that?
He was shot outside the plane after leaving as we was told to do.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #91
101. There was no time for an investigation
This sounds like one of those unfortunate situations where a law enforcement person has to make a snap decision how to best protect the interests of the public.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #101
120. But the interests of the public are not having innocent people killed.
The interest of the public has not been served here.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #120
150. I think we need to look at the alternatives
What if the guy really did have a bomb? How many innocent people might have been killed if he'd detonated it on or near the plane?

Police are not mind readers. They have to act on the information available using the tools they have. It would be nice if they had a reliable way to paralyze a person without endangering his or her life, but that technology does not presently exist.
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slampoet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #150
171. Shooting a person with a bomb is like putting a sodomite in jail
It doesn't FIX THE PROBLEM it just makes it worse.

Fact is this air marshal screwed up.

If the guy didn't have a bomb then the marshal killed by mistake.

If the guy had a bomb then he lived at least a few seconds on the tarmac, (if the reports are to be belived) Long enough to trigger a device. Also it seems the marshal had no way of knowing if the person had a trigger linked to his heartbeat or if the perp had the explosive on him.

Real sloppy.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #171
174. You're pretty good at second-guessing a professional LE officer
I'd like to know how you personally would have handled the situation.

You can have any kind of weapon at your disposal, as long as it exists in reality.
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #171
177. LMFAO
Your funny, clueless but funny.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #171
204. What the hell kind of nasty homophobic statement is this???
Can't you make your point without going all Fred Phelps?
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #150
179. The "But what if he had a bomb?" response isn't going to work anymore.
It worked great when everyone was scared of terrorists hiding behind every corner, and it can be used to justify virtually any homicide, all the time.

It also is dangerous in that it can be raised after the fact by shooters in situations wherein the victim actually never made any bomb threat at all. It is a perfect "throw down" weapon.

Now at least two innocent people have been shot and neither of them had anything closely resembling a bomb. The "But what if he had a bomb?" response is finished.
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #179
194. He said he had a bomb.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #194
199. Apparently, he was not on his meds and allegedly said he had a bomb.
But. He. Did. Not. Have. A. Bomb.
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #199
205. Don't have to have one. Just the threat will get ya killed.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #205
221. And the punishment for threats is not summary execution.
So when "ya get killed" and you have no bomb, and all you did was (allegedly) say you had one to get off the plane faster, you may be the victim of unjustified homicide.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #221
235. The shooting was NOT DONE AS PUNISHMENT!!!
The purpose of a police officer shooting a criminal suspect is to make him or her STOP.

If the person happens to die, that is unfortunate (be they guilty or innocent).

A defensive shooting is NOT AN EXECUTION!

:argh:
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #235
288. The SHOOTING WAS DONE OF AN INNOCENT PERSON.
We just eviscerated the argument that the victim was "not innocent" because he violated a statute against making aviation threats.

Since the reason for shooting was not (apparently) simply that he made threats, then this person is still considered innocent in the circumstances presented here. He did not have a bomb, so he committed no crime involving having a bomb or using it. When people make threats alone, for example in going through security screening, they are taken into custody -- not murdered on sight.

NOW then. When homicide is committed, it is not just "unfortunate," and that is especially the case when someone is shot while fleeing the scene and they had no weapon.

There was no one being threatened with imminent danger when the victim was shot, so the shooter cannot claim it was a "defensive shooting." A defensive shooting would take place if someone was in imminent harm. No one was in imminent harm.

There was no weapon in view, no threat with any weapon in view, no move made toward any particular person with any particular weapon. The victim was in flight.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #288
298. He was NOT AN INNOCENT PERSON!
He committed a crime by making a bomb threat.

He was suspected, perhaps reasonably, of actually having a bomb.

The air marshall perceived him as a threat, made a decision, and took action to stop the man. The man did not comply with verbal orders, so the air marshall shot him.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #298
303. How do you know he wasn't innocent?
If he was under psychosis, he was legally and morally innocent. And, we HAVE NO PROOF HE HAD A BOMB OR SAID HE DID. We only have the word of a "senior official." The story keeps changing a little every time they report it. I'll believe it when I see a tape.

Remember the Underground shooting? He had wires, he had on a bulky jacket, he ran, etc. ALL LIES. Again, too much has changed via eyewitness reports to take possible CYAing as the truth.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #303
304. My opinion is based on what I've seen and is subject to change
I agree the story is not adding up yet.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #298
312. Making a bomb threat does not get people summarily executed.
He was innocent OF HAVING A BOMB and innocent of PUTTING ANYONE IN IMMINENT DANGER. THIS MEANS HE WAS INNOCENT.

He was suspected, perhaps reasonably, of actually having a bomb.

Suspicion does not make someone guilty. Now TWO witnesses (who are not part of "Homeland Security") have said they heard NOTHING ABOUT A BOMB.

This should be a homicide investigation.
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rayofreason Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #221
245. If there was a trial...
...then execution would be unwarranted. There was no trial, but if he had not died, there would be one.

You seem to want to second guess the air marshal. If I am on a plane and some one claims to have a bomb, I say take that person out now and ask questions later. It seems that this individual was mental, but the air marshals did not know that. Protecting passengers from potential threats is what air marshals are there for. They did the right thing.

Now (later, safe) it will be time to ask questions, second guess, carp and bitch, and do everything else that people making split-second life or death decisions don't do.
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #221
286. you may be the victim of unjustified homicide.
No, you just committed suicide.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #199
234. There was no way to tell he was off his meds by looking at him
He said he had a bomb.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #234
305. How do you know he said this?
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #305
307. I'm responding to the information that's available to me
Do you have a credible source that says he NEVER said he had a bomb, to anyone?
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ManiacJoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #199
237. Outside of poker, bluffing is a bad thing.
Unfortunately for him, apparently the cops believed the bluff.
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Reciprocity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #120
159. Correct but (in most cases) innocent people would have
obeyed the air marshall. I hate it but the marshall had no other choice than to shot him when he reached into his backpack.
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #91
175. Investigate the threat?
What the hell would you investigate. Theres no time for an investigation.
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crankybubba Donating Member (818 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #91
189. sooo if he had a bomb..
you would take the time to let him kill many more people..real life is not like t.v. you have a split second to decide what to do. hesitation will kill you or others. good idea NOT..............
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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #69
142. I still want to hear witness accounts about the "bomb" part
For all we know, he may have been yelling and acting crazy and someone shot him. Then the feds decided to say that he was yelling something about a bomb. Law enforcement officials are good about shooting first then coming up with the reasons later.

The Colombians are not the only corrupt officials around, you know.
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anotherdrew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #69
252. how does putting a bullet in him help? the bullet could trigger the bomb
talking is better than killing - this wasn't nessesary. As for those who think it was, I don't want to be around such people anymore. Only a total coward would think that just because a nut says he has a bmob that's a reason to instantly kill that person. I suppose you safty types might next build a robot that will shoot anyone saying the word. Hope you taught your kids never to say the word. Hope your significant other doesn't make a wise-crack or just freak-out sometime, since acting weird and "spooking the herd" is now reason enough to be shot dead by cops in america, home of the brave. This has happened MANY times. MANY people have been killed for less by "the authorities." Even people who never say the B word.

Be carefull everyone, your life is forefit instantly at a whim, given any tiny offence.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #64
81. He said he had a bomb - How can you say there was no threat?
How the fuck are law enforcement people, airline crewmembers, etc. supposed to know he's not serious?
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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #81
145. The feds said he had a bomb
Doesn't necessarily mean he really said that.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #145
152. Gotcha
:tinfoilhat:

Of course there have already been non-government witnesses who have corroborated the claim that the man said he had a bomb.

But they may be in on the Conspiracy too.
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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #152
157. I'm not watching it
All I know is that in these moments, you have to wait until all the facts come out before making a judgement. If he did say he had a bomb, then he got what was coming to him. If he was just acting crazy and pissed off at his wife, then maybe the marshall overreacted.

It happens.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #152
206. Witnesses said the guy shot on the Underground had bomb
Edited on Wed Dec-07-05 05:29 PM by LostinVA
Wires coming from his shirt. I'm not saying what the Feds are saying isn;t true, I'm just waiting until all of the facts have come in. The story has already changed a bunch of times since it was first reported.
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No DUplicitous DUpe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #81
164. Maybe he said "I have a balm"....
But seriously, have the passengers confirmed he threatened the plane using the word "bomb"(official story)
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No DUplicitous DUpe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #164
192. See, the word bomb is being dropped from the story Via CNN news..
and MSNBC has a Breaking News banner saying "No indication that suspect actually had a bomb" and "Apparently claimed"

but they just blew up a small bag on the tarmac...
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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #81
172. Maybe he was singing Richie Valens... Balalala La Bomba!
all crazy and shit
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #54
72. Then he should not have been flying
How is an air marshall and the other passengers supposed to know if he is mentally ill and didn't take his pills? This is a time sensitive situation. A bomb can be detonated with the click of a button. That's unfortunate about his medication, but the safety of the passengers, the crew and the plane must come first.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #72
82. They could have shot him in the legs.
These guys are trained to do more than just kill... Fatally shooting him just seems kind of harsh. IMHO
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. Actually, law enforcement generally doesn't train in shoot-to-wound.
It's usually "empty the magazine." For dealing with a bomb, its certainly "empty the magazine."
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Thorandmjolnir Donating Member (390 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #83
148. Huh?
You mean to tell me that Air marshalls are trained to "empty the magazine" on a plane? A small confined room with people all around that could get killed as well?

yeah, right!
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ManiacJoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #148
239. No, they are not.
Regular cops are not trained to "empty the magazine" either.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:31 PM
Original message
You've obviously never taken a firearms class
You don't shoot for legs, you don't shoot to wound, you don't shoot to kill.

You shoot to stop. You shoot for center of mass. When a target is moving that's all you really can do.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
87. Are you talking to me?
Because if you are... Well, that's just funny then. :rofl:
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #87
93. Who taught you to try to shoot someone in the legs?
That's REALLY funny.

:rofl:
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #93
95. Learned it in the Army.
With how to deal with situations like this. By the way, I'm not saying the guys were wrong in what they did. I'm posing the question as to rather there were alternatives. I'd more than likely have done the same thing. Especially since it doesn't take any time to arm and/or detonate an explosive device.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #95
98. Clearly some response was called for
On this we agree.

I apologize for my earlier comment to you. Every firearms course I've ever taken or heard of teaches to shoot for center of mass, with the intent of making the target stop whatever behavior is unacceptable.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #98
106. It's understandable.
Edited on Wed Dec-07-05 03:49 PM by Stand and Fight
Any Rules of Engagement I ever had cautioned against lethal force, and lethal force is shooting center mass -- especially dependent upon the weapon caliber you're using. We're taught to shoot center mass in the Army as well, but we're also taught how to take down a man without applying lethal force.

I don't know where this guys bag was in relation to him when he was shot, but if it was right in his hands... Sadly, I would have shot him too. Even if it was within arms reach, it could have been an improvised device that detonated with the push of a button. They did the right thing as far as I can tell.
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #95
187. The Army does not teach shoot to wound, never has.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #187
219. So, you're saying I imagined it? Amazing! Imagine that.
Rules of Engagement.
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lynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #219
257. Law enforcement teaches shoot to kill -
- Another example is the head-shot to the guy in the London subway who was running and suspected of having a bomb. Never shoot-to-wound as it could allow the suspect to fire back or give him time to detonate his bomb. My husband is in law enforcement and that was how he was taught 30 years ago and is how they're being taught now.
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #219
287. Thats a nice way of putting it.
3 years in the Army, 69-72
22 years with the Sheriffs Department, where i worked with more agency's than i can count.
I could say i believe your being untruthful, buy i like your response much better.
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #95
274. "Learned it in the Army."
Bull shit.
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 07:50 AM
Response to Original message
273. And you keep shooting
Until the threat is stopped. That may mean emptying the magazine.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #82
94. Oh brother
:eyes:
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #94
99. It's a reasonable question.
No need to be snide, rude. I'd have more than likely done the same thing. I suspect the guy probably seemed stark raving mad to these FMs. The lost of life would have been substantial if he was in fact in possession of an explosive device. They did what they were trained to do.

The lost of human life is unfortunate, but more people could have died. This alone is one thing, but more people would have been totally unacceptable.

Now please don't be so rude. Sometimes people on here are something else. Sheesh.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #82
116. If he had a bomb
Shooting him in the legs would not have disabled him so as to prevent him from clicking a clicker.
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soda Donating Member (111 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #116
201. what an aviator
thats the same as we use at my local shooting club where did you get it?
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #201
217. That's the new logo for the Red Cross
-no denominational, non-sectarian (i.e., not a cross or crescent or star of David)
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Tinfoil Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #82
126. Not correct

Stand and Fight

These guys are trained to do more than just kill... Fatally shooting him just seems kind of harsh. IMHO



That's not correct. FAMs are trained to stop the threat, plain and simple. If you shoot someone that is reaching into their bag to set off a bomb in the leg, they will still set off the bomb.


Stop the threat
Stop the threat
Stop the threat
Stop the threat

Keep repeating that. That's what they do.

NO ONE, NO LEO, FAM, Military, shoots to "wound" someone. Nada, zip. If you have cause to pull the trigger, you have cause to kill.


If he was mentally unstable, bi-polar or whatever, and didn't take his pills, OH WELL. The FAM doesn't know that and there is NO time to make that assessment.
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #82
141. Lookit. It's really simple.
I'm bipolar.

If I'm off my meds (why isn't something doing something about this?? ) and acting like this, please shoot me. I won't mind a bit.
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #82
181. Yea i guess you could
If you didn't mind him setting the bomb off and killing innocent people.
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #72
84. I'm not arguing with that logic! Just reporting the news.
I absolutely want to be safe when I fly. And, crazy people can be dangerous. One killed John Lennon for instance.
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the other one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #84
103. Mark David Chapman - another "Lone Nut"
shhh...be vewy vewy quiet...I'm smelling yet another conspiracy foisted upon the american people...Catcher in the Rye...Bush I's favorite book...
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #103
107. Yes, there are many dangerous deranged people out there.
Edited on Wed Dec-07-05 03:49 PM by MyPetRock
He obviously had no method to his madness or he wouldn't have run screaming and yelling toward armed men demanding he stop! As much as I would like to indulge in another conspiracy theory, I think this definitely was another lone nut.
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the other one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #107
124. Agreed. But I'm not sure about Chapman nt
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #124
128. I think they found a brain tumor. Wasn't he the one on the UT tower?
If I got that correct, I believe the autopsy found a tumor. Officials surmise that made him do what he did.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #128
133. Charles Whitman
nt
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #133
135. Gotcha! Don't know about the other guy then. eom
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #72
263. Yes, let's execute all mentally ill people prone to psychotic..
episodes. They should not be BREATHING, let alone flying.
Mental illness is NOT goint to go away just because you wish it so.

I have had HUNDREDS of encounters in my lifetime with mentally ill people; on the streets, sidewalks, stores, and at work in various jobs.

They FREQUENTLY go off of their meds. It is NO ONES fault.

We hope that enforcement officers are judicious in their use of force. I wasn't there today, I don't know if I'd shoot. But on the FACE of it, it's not OK to shoot the mentally ill. They will always be with us.
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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #54
86. that's what I thought, a bipolar ...who freaked out and hasn't been
taking their meds. NO EXCUSE TO KILL. Wound maybe, but not shoot to kill.
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #86
191. Don't think the officer had time to do a medical evaluation.
Or the training.
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maveric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
77. CNN: "Passeneger who was shot, has now died"
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
78. CNN's Jeanne Meserve confirms the passenger has died.
On CNN now...
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WhiteTara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:29 PM
Original message
cnn just reported the passenger has died n/t
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kerry-is-my-prez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
79. We'll find out the truth when witnesses and his wife start talking
n/t
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chelsea0011 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
80. Wife says husband had "mental issues" and was running up and
down the aisles?
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genieroze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
90. they killed him
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/12/07/wednesday/index.html
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
100. CNN: Passenger was a U.S. citizen, 44 years old.
That's the most information they have on the dead passenger.
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
104. I'm confused. Did this guy make a bomb threat or not?
Local officials told CNN he was threatening.

An "unnamed senior national security official" said he made a bomb threat.

The guy's reportedly said he was agitated and ran for the plane exits.

Do we have more on the alleged bomb threat?
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Thorandmjolnir Donating Member (390 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #104
158. Why unnamed?
Why is the senior national security official unnamed? What would be the harm in publishing his name, unless they just need someone to put out the rumor of a bomb. So far the only accusation of a bomb has been from this unnamed source.
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Lex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
105. He was having an argument with his wife and tried to leave the plane!
Edited on Wed Dec-07-05 03:49 PM by Lex

Then as he was angrily storming off the plane, he caught the attention of the Air Marshall who asked him to stop.

He refused. He then said he wanted off the plane and he had a bomb in his bag.

They asked him to get on the floor and lie down.

He refused. He then went to reach in his bag and then he was shot.


That's the story that Pete Williams just relayed on MSNBC.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #105
112. The Air Marshall appears to have had no choice.
Based on what you've just relayed, the AM did the right thing. It will be a heavy weight on his/her shoulders, but they did the right thing.
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Lex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #112
121. I agree. The Air Marshall had to deal with everything at one time.
We can only look at things in hindsight.

The Air Marshall is trained to err on the side of the safety of the passengers, not on the side of the guy yelling that he has a bomb in his bag.
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Nimrod2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
109. They killed him, the guy on the AA flight in Miami
He is dead according to CNN.
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Lex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #109
113. See post #77.
Too bad the guy was killed. Seems like he had mental problems.
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Stockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #109
223. Remember London n/t
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
111. I'll stick w/ the Air Marshals until "fault" is proved
Before 9/11 I flew an average of 25,000-30,000 miles/year, with an average of 125,000 miles/year during my "high five" years. Since 9/11 (excluding flights "back home" when my father was terminally ill and dying) I have averaged 2000 miles/year.

Yes - some Air Marshals are "sickos" and "masochists" - just like some doctors are rapists and some clergy are child molesters and some lawyers are embezzlers.

But when a guy is acting strange and bizzaro - and says he has a bomb -- and won't drop the sack---> my butt as a passenger is on the line, and I give the nod to the sky marshall.
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Lex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #111
117. I'll have to agree with you. Looking at it in hindsight is all we can do
at this point.

But at the time it is happening, that is a different thing.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #117
130. I have 1.2 Million - 1.3 Million butt in px seat miles
and one of my grad school house mates was in one of the planes hijacked to Dawson's Field in 1970, so I will have to rely on the Air Marshals.
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
123. even if you believe he had a bomb, how does killing him on the spot help?
if someone on a plane claims to have a bomb, i DO NOT want the air marshalls or anyone else to immediately kill the one person who can quickly locate and difuse any such bomb.

if the guy was holding a push button and threatening to press it, THAT would be a good reason to shoot to kill.

but without knowing more precisely what the nature of the danger is, shooting to kill is at least as likely to INCREASE the risk of an explosion as it is to decrease it.


not that any of us can claim to know enough details to judge at this point....
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alphadog Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #123
136. Please remind me not to fly with you.
If someone has a bag and reaches into it, claiming to have a bomb, I'm gonna go out on a limb and make the logical leap that the bomb is in the bag.
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Cults4Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #136
143. Hey Beta that is pretty much what they said...
yeesh.
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #136
151. please remind me not to fly with you!
first off, this guy was apparently running down the jetway, not reaching into his bag.

however, if he did reach into a bag, and if he did have a bomb, wouldn't you want to make sure he didn't have his hand on a deadman's switch? or, maybe it's set to blow automatically and only he can knows how to diffuse it?

real life ain't the movies, and sometimes the dramatic delivering of 'justice' to the criminal gets everyone else blown to bits.

assess the situation before doing something stupid is all i'm saying. if killing the guy is the best way to save lives, i'm all for it. but when the danger could easily be only a delusion in an unmedicated mind, or help from the guy with knowledge of the bomb may be your best hope of survival, killing him shouldn't be an urgent priority.
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Bike Punk Donating Member (67 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
125. Look at how horribly...
people can act when they don't get their smoke break. Look at Tyra Banks being an absolute tosser for whatever reason. There were incidents of people going stir crazy or drinking too much and being abusive long before 9/11.

I suspect it was some idiot who maybe had some drinks, was jone-sing for a smoke, and wanted to be the first off the plane. We all have encountered those assholes whose duty it is to shove small children and old ladies just so they can be at the front of the line to get off the plane. Those who as soon as one wheel touches the ground, they are unbuckled and dragging all their stuff from the overhead bins before they reach the gate, as if that will make it all go faster.
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darkism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
131. There is no reason for marshals to have deadly weapons.
There's just no reason for marshals to have deadly weapons when non-lethal ones would work equally well. Now an innocent man is dead just because he had a few mental issues. Sounds just like what happened in Britain with the guy who jumped the turnstile.

Post-9/11 paranoia gone mad.
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #131
144. How do you know he was innoncent?
He said he had a bomb, he reached into his bag, shoot him and save the rest of the plane.
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #144
155. That's absolutely right! Take any steps necessary to protect
other civilians. The person was obviously heading into the terminal where there would have been many more people at risk!

There's a lot of speculation still being broadcast and we need to hold off on being so judgemental.

At this point, based on what I've heard so far, at the very best this passenger was very stupid! ANYONE who makes a threat, and is told to raise your hands and hit the floor, AND DOESN'T, is clearly looking to be shot...probably DEAD!

I have no problem with that action by the authorities at all. If I act that dumb, I deserve what I get!
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bdot Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #131
154. I could care less if he had mental problems.
If he was threatening to kill people then the security has to do all it can to protect.
It's Darwinism at it's finest.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #154
210. Geez, what a nasty comment -- several on this thread
So, if someone is mentally ill, then should be shot/die because it's survival of the fittest? God. This has nothing to do with whether or not the air marshall did the correct thing. I hope someone you love never has to go through this horrible mental illness.
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #131
166. bipolar is not "a few mental issues"
Someone wildly bipolar who is on a manic swing can be utterly uncontrollable.
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Rich Hunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #166
316. oh bullshit
Edited on Fri Dec-09-05 06:51 PM by Rich Hunt
Yes, in our nasty witch hunt for the WRONG terrorists, we now target the mentally ill, or anyone who might be.

What's so 'liberal' about that?

You see, people who piss off corporate criminals bad enough will sometimes be harassed enough to
see a psychiatrist. Well, here they are, all ready and waiting to attack the 'mentally ill' and imply they're
THAT dangerous.

Please note, too, the potential for McCarthyism here: 'are you or ever have you had a mental illness'?

It doesn't even matter if you've never had such a diagnosis - it just needs to get in print.

And what sort of right-wing whore likes to sneak this un-professional bullshit into print?
Those who run to google and other sites looking for 'spin' once a story hits the news. Who
knew next to nothing about 'bipolar disorder' until they went and looked it up on the 'net
when they needed to spin this thing? And who wasn't using the term 'manic depression'
until I corrected them, because it betrayed their 'cliff notes' approach to issues (i.e.,
they're no friends of the so-called 'mentally ill' - NAMI wouldn't make these arguments).

And who engages in spin management? People with REAL ties to terrorism.

That's who.
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symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
147. No TASERS for plane use?
I can't think of anything more stupid than an explosive device being used on a plane called a GUN.

Think of a guy shooting off a weapon with dozens of people in a nice little ROW BEHIND the Offender who can share the bullet as it continues on it's path..

This man could have been on the floor TWITCHING as they went through his bag and handcuffed him.

Using a GUN on an AIRPLANE is more reason for the world to look at the US as a bunch of INSANE COWBOYS.
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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #147
161. And they never shoot just once
That part is scary because cops always miss their target.
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Tinfoil Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #161
167. FAMs are better shots

than your average (or above average for that matter) LEO.


In fact, FAMs are incredible shots. They go through the toughest defensive handgun training course in the world. Tens of thousands of rounds in real situational scenarios. They aren't "empty the magazine" barney feifs....
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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #167
190. I don't buy that they're better shots
Didn't we have a huge increase in FAM's after 9/11? Anytime you beef up any law enforcement department with huge numbers, you lower your standards during the screening process.
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Tinfoil Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #190
207. You can buy or not buy whatever you'd like,


but I'm telling you they are much more proficient in firearms skills than other LEO agencies.


They have the toughest training of any civilian shooter (and most military, as well).
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Doc Sardonic Donating Member (56 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #147
178. FAM's do not use a jacketed or semi-hollow round.....
they use a pre-fragmented round known as a safety slug. These allow for use of a firearm in a close defensive situation, such as your home or an airplane, without pass through issues such as shooting a burglar and 10-ringing Grandma in the next room, or decompressing an airliner at 35,00 feet. Info on ammo here http://www.answers.com/topic/glaser-safety-slug
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Tinfoil Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #178
185. Not correct..

They use good old fashioned holllow point bullets. The hollow point keeps grandma out of the 10-ring and you don't have to worry about decompressing an airliner not matter what bullet you use.
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #185
232. It looks like FAMs are issued the .357 SIG
http://www.govexec.com/features/0604-15/0604-15s1.htm
http://www.thegunzone.com/fam-lawman/fam-qual.html

The .357 SIG is a high-velocity, quick stopping round which avoids the low stopping power of the 9mm while being much more compact than the .45 ACP. Qualification is pretty strict, requiring a timed minimum score of 135 out of a possible 150 on a bottle-in-a-bottle shaped target at twenty-one feet. If I read that second link correctly, you cannot pass if you miss the inner bottle more than five times out of thirty shots. The inner bottle looks to be about the size of a Thermos.
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symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #178
220. Yeah I have some of those for my 9mm
I got them for home protection in a Condo so I wouldn't kill anyone sitting watching TV next door.. amazing ammo, I was told you could knock down an intruder yet it wouldn't even penetrate the drywall..

Then again they can always MISS.

Seems to me it would be an effective training tip to drop to one knee and shoot UP through the head or body and miss passengers that way.

But there is ALWAYS Human Error to contend with, and to me a Taser would be more Idiot Proof..
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DonP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #147
186. Not neccessarily
"Think of a guy shooting off a weapon with dozens of people in a nice little ROW BEHIND the Offender who can share the bullet as it continues on it's path.."

I'd rather that than think of the alternative if this guy had been a real threat and had an explosive in his bag. 20/20 hindsight is a luxury folks sitting in the safety of their home or office have to second guess the FAM who had to make the decision in a split second on shoot or not to shoot.

If it had been the other way around and there had been an explosive, and the FAM had taken the time to investigate, this thread would be full of people screaming at why do we have FAM if they aren't going to protect passengers from threats.

FWIW, the bullet doesn't "continue on it's path" with the FAM's weapon. FAM's are reported to use .357 magnum Glaser Safety Slugs that fragment on impact to prevent over penetration and minimize possible cabin damage. The slugs break into 5 or 6 smaller pieces on impact.

As reported somewhere else in the thread, the FAMs are also among the best trained LEO's there are, as far as firearm use and marksmanship goes.

Tasers OTOH are a one shot deal, unless you carry two or can re-load for a possible secondary threat.

Oh, not that it matters, but according to the latest reports the FAM that did the shooting was a woman.
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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #147
240. TASERS?!?, That's brilliant thinking.
"I can't think of anything more stupid than an explosive device being used on a plane called a GUN".

So instead the FAM zaps the potential threat with some 50,000 volts of electrical current.

Think there could be a problem or two if the explosive device was designed with an electrical circuit and/or detonator?
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symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #240
256. Yeah and there you are sitting on a vehicle with
thousands of gallons of FUEL in the wings.. so guns are a great idea..

Okay, maybe a taser is a bad idea, I'm just looking for solutions other than PLUGGING people with guns - folks who may just happen to be confused and stupid and just need some meds and not a hot LEAD Injection..

What about a dart gun? Down he goes, and if you miss and hit the lady behind him she just gets a little nap and a free ticket to anywhere in the US next time she flies..

Why not mace/tear gas blown immediately thru out the plane so that everyone is rendered useless, but the guy with the gas mask, the Space Pig..

I mean a freaking cowboy could have caught this guy with a piece of ROPE, if I'd been there I would have put my leg out in the aisle and TRIPPED the running guy so they could tackle him, there has to be some other way.. this country is going back in time, practically medieval in some respects..
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mn9driver Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #256
266. We talked about getting tasers in our cockpits after 9/11
to protect us against a cockpit assault. The problem is that seat cushions make an excellent shield against them and you only get two shots, max. Not so with a firearm. The chances of a bullet or three doing fatal damage to a transport aircraft are just about zero-unless you happen to shoot the pilots. Shooting innocent passengers is also not an ideal outcome.

Poking holes in the skin would cause some noisy leaks, but nothing more. Shooting a fuel tank wouldn't do squat unless the tank was nearly empty and very hot (ala TWA 700), or you used a tracer round, or some other type of incendiary. Jet fuel is pretty well behaved unless you really abuse it. You can drop a lit match into a puddle of it, (don't do this on a really hot day) and it will put the match out.

This guy was mentally ill. This sort of thing has happened here in Minneapolis on occasion (not airport related), which I think is inexcusable unless the police are actually somehow in immediate danger from the individual. A guy with a "bomb" on a jetway is a tough situation. If the FAM's hadn't been there, the Airport Police would have been called to remove him after he made the threat, and the same thing may or may not have happened. They have tasers. I don't know if they would have chosen to use them in this situation. Very sad.
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
160. Freak Republic is probably advocating blowing the whole plane up,
to make sure they "got 'em."
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Puglover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #160
227. No doubt Ilsa...
I also think Free Republic has sent a boatload of visitors to DU today. And most of them seem to be on this thread.
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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
162. Good thing I was able to pack my combat scissors
:eyes:
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BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #162
195. OK, maybe it's bad form to laugh about that, but--snerk.
Combat scissors.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
163. The passenger's name: Rigoberto Alpizar
Just reported by CNN. 44 years old, U.S. citizen.
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
169. Enough
A guy was shot. He looks like a crazy, arguing with his wife, etc.

Will someone please tell CNN that there is nothing new to report. Come back to me when there is some more news.
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MichaelVain Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #169
180. This is why you comply with law enforcement
It's a shame if this guy was mentally ill, that he was shot. Even if he was mentally ill, this appears to be a justified shooting. Suicide by Air Marshall, sad.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #180
213. Someone mentally ill can't "comply with law enforcement."
Again, I'm not judging the air marshall's actions until all of the facts are in, but the several not-so-nice comments about mental illness on this thread are upsetting. The guy, if bipolar, didn't commit suicide -- he was whacked out. BIPOLAR.
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anotherdrew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #213
253. doesn't matter anymore in america, you act up... YOU DIE. lovely isn't it?
we'd probably better start issuing bullet proof vests to the less stable members of the population. I'm sick of these kinds of killings being just brushed off. Killing a person should end a carrer at minimum, even if justified. It'll happen, have some kinda other job waiting, but I don't want to be getting a traffic ticket from a man who's killed someone, for whatever reason - right or wrong.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #253
271. No, I understand what you mean
I've always been leery of stuff like this anyway, even more so after I (crazily) dated a cop for a few years and was exposed to some horrible attitudes... but ever since the London Underground shooting, it scares me... the cover ups even more than the action, you know? *sigh*

And, it seems like those with mental health issue are doubly screwed.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
184. Let's have SFPD Chief Heather Fong investigate this
Let's have San Francisco Police Chief Heather Fong investigate this case. She would be perfect.

1. Democrat
2. Female
3. Racial minority
4. Career Law Enforcement Officer
5. MASTER OF SOCIAL WORK DEGREE
6. FROM CAL STATE SAN FRANCISCO
<>
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chelsea0011 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
198. Damn shame this whole story. Marshall's had reason to act as they did but
a disturbed and mentally ill person is dead. This is a sad story all around. I'm sure some will sell it as a "success" in how we now handle threats of terrorism. But the holding bays for luggage are still not being checked for bombs.
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
203. Okay, this killing is starting to look a little less defensible...
Edited on Wed Dec-07-05 05:38 PM by High Plains
CNN is reporting the Air Marshals asked the guy to leave the plane and followed him onto the jetway. He was not on the plane, and thus not immediately endangering the passengers. And they just showed his backpack being blown up. No bombs, just a t-shirt, from what I could tell.

The guy was apparently not a terrorist, did not have a bomb, but was acting crazy and said he had a bomb (if the feds are to be believed, and yes, there are issues with their credibility). This looks like a tragic death of a fucked-up guy at the hands of our protectors operating under security-mania "shoot to kill" orders.

Ah, security. Gotta have it. Gotta have it so much that we're willing to see a few people die for it. It reminds me of our attitude toward guns. It is as if we as a society have made the decision that 20,000 gun deaths a year and the occasional Columbine are worth it so we can go hunting or target-shooting or collecting or whatever. With security and the Great Fear, we are not only willing to sacrifice innumerable civil liberties, but also some of our sick brethren. That's the choice we've made.

That's also why I don't spend a lot of time in the good ol' USA these days. Too scared and angry, like a bunch of enraged gorillas.



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Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #203
211. I feel bad for the Guy's wife
The guy who was shot was supposedly mentally ill and didn't take his medication. That was what his wife was trying to tell the air marshall before he shot the guy.
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #203
214. I travel internationally about once a year,
and travel domestically about twice a year. My husband travels internationally about twice a year, sometimes more, and domestically many times per year. My children travel domestically several times a year. I WANT SECURITY IN THE AIRPORT AND ON OUR PLANES. I despise the Patriot Act and bogus Iraq war. But I am 100% behind our being safe on airplanes. I wish an armed air marshall were on every plane we fly. I trust the air marshall a lot more than any deranged or organized nut. Sorry if this is politically incorrect, but that's where I'm coming from.
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anotherdrew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #214
255. having air marshals is fine, but this killing was pointless
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #203
215. Man, I said I hoped it wasn't another London Underground
But it's starting to sound like it's partly one...
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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #203
243. You've made your choice, and I've made mine.
Never would I live in a gun free or highly gun regulated society.
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6000eliot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #203
244. I can't believe there wasn't a better way to resolve this.
And that Marshal will have to go a long way to convince me otherwise.
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Scooter24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
218. I'm a bit torn on the actions taken...
But, if the facts that are presented are true, then I can't fault the Marshall for doing what he did. I'm sure when all the facts come out, we will be able to have a clearer picture of what happened and can then fully judge whether the actions taken. Until then, I am going to reserve final judgement.
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Catchawave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #218
224. My son's a FAM ....
...based in Miami, but it wasn't him. Whew, never thought I'd have to worry about him being a trigger man, but that's the job. As a mom, I usually worry about the opposite results. Accck. Yeah, I call him everytime an airplane is in Breaking News. :silly:
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Jack_DeLeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
226. With the updates I've heard...
it sounds like a case of a crazy guy doing stupid stuff that got himself shot.

IMO it sounds like a good shoot.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
228. IMHO the obvious is
Edited on Wed Dec-07-05 07:12 PM by Horse with no Name
supposedly he was screened before he got on the plane.
IF he had a bomb, then someone didn't do their job on the ground.
I simply don't understand.
We use TASERS where TASERS don't need to be used, however, in a situation that it would help, we use guns.
If the security on the ground was adequate, then a TASER allows a little time without (hopefully) killing someone.
And I am NOT a TASER advocate, however, this seems more of a situation to use one than because someone didn't say "Please" to an overzealous cop.
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janedoe Donating Member (540 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #228
229. What will you bet this will give Bush's approval ratings a big boost?
What a coincidence. The report card by 9/11 shows Homeland Security isn't getting it right. Why not a cheap demonstration that "the system works."

So, how do you know what the guy said before they shot him?

They knew his bag didn't contain explosives, otherwise they'd have called in the bomb squad immediately. As soon as the story broke, it was stated that his bag contained no explosives.
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
230. PLEASE don't let some of these responses get associated with Democrats.
That is all we need. Yeah, when a guy claims to have a bomb, Dems are for waiting and calling a meeting first to make absolutely, positively sure he isn't disabled, or mentally ill. Or maybe he was just kidding. Maybe he had Tourette's Syndrome and yelled out "bomb" by mistake. Or maybe he was just singing a song that had "bomb" in the lyrics. Why didn't that irresponsible Federal Air Marshall gather all the guy's friends and family together, and maybe his family physician, to see if there is a reason he might have yelled that he has a bomb. Maybe in his family "bomb" is a euphemism for intestinal gas...maybe....maybe...maybe...

Give me a break, and DON'T let Dems get associated with this kind of hand-wringing and indecision in the face of danger, please.
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tranche Donating Member (913 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #230
233. Yes - Kill Them - Tough on Terror
I remember this same exact talk after the London Underground killing. America's still a country very afraid. Someone's been killed and before we wait to jude what happens we take the first crappy initial reports from CNN and while holding them as truth debate whether the killing was justified.

There will be a day when we're all not so afraid. I hope it just comes soon.
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hollowdweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #230
236. Really. What if the guy really had one and they fucked around and BANG

If the facts are as they presented I don't see what else they could have done. Let him run back into the bldg around more people? I feel for the poor nutty guy but he did the wrong thing at DEFINATELY the wrong time.

I'm all for the humanistic approach but I don't really think it applied here.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
242. On the six oclock news
they said he was from the suburbs of my hometown and worked at the home depot. He had been in south america since thanksgiving with a group doing dentistry volunteer work.
His brother in law said he had no knowledge of him having any mental illness but that does not mean he did not. A Shame all around.
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Catt03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
251. This is absolutely crazy


A mentally ill American was shot dead with a high powered rifle in the jet bridge of an American airliner in the United States of America by a trigger happy, supposedly, federal marshal. You feel safe about that?

Advocating killing someone who is sick is pathetic.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #251
260. The guy was bi-polar. His wife claimed he was off his meds.
Do tell, WTF is bi-polar person doing, flying all over the world, and not on his meds. The shrink on TV was saying she does not recommend that her bi-polar patients flew at all, it's very stressful. Let alone off his meds.
The guy should have stayed home, or, at the very least, took his freaking medication.
Yea, he is mentally ill. Doesn't mean he isn't dangerous. Even without a bomb, someone off his meds with a mental illness, who is freaking out, can be very dangerous.
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Puglover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #260
280. Yeah...he should have stayed at home
and took his "freaking" medication. I'm way curious, what is your point Lizzy? He deserved what he got? Living in a large urban area I see people on the streets that are acting VERY strangely all the time. I realize the streets are not an airplane but I don't understand what you are getting at here.
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Larissa238 Donating Member (373 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #260
301. I disagree.
I am bipolar, have flown a lot, and currently going through withdrawls from some of my medications. I have a flight planned for next tuesday. I am still on most of my medication, but my doctor wanted me off some of them. So technically, I also am a bipolar person who is not on (all) their meds. My doctor knows about my vacation, and never even mentioned not going on the plane.

What do you want us bipolar people to do? Not fly? Be locked in our houses, or better yet, institutions? I don't want to be treated like a second-class citizen because of something that I had no control over. I know the dangers of not being on medications, I have seen it firsthand. I was not on medications for years because I was misdiagnosed. Was I dangerous? No.

People assume that if someone in the MSM has a mental illness, then all other people with that illness act the same. Bipolar people cover a wide range of temperaments. I know some who are really nice, and wouldn't hurt anyone, even in a manic episode, there are some who would like to do crazy things like rollerblade naked 30 miles through bad parts of LA (true story, not me) or jump off high buildings, and then there are some like him who get violent.

People like him give those of us with disorders a bad name. I currently am about to graduate from USC (Southern Cali) with a BA in Biology. I am a fully functional and successful person. I don't see the need for limits on myself. Who are you to say that I cannot get on a plane just because I was born with this disorder?
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #301
310. I didn't say it. The shrink on TV said she doesn't want her
bi-polar patients to fly anywhere. This guy was obviously in no shape to fly, let alone without his medications.
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Larissa238 Donating Member (373 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #310
315. That is not always the case
I have flown while not on my meds, and I was fine. I wont be fully on my meds when I fly, and I will be fine. There are different types of bipolar, and she should have acknowledged that. I hate it when the MSM make us all out to be dangerous, raving psychos. We are not all like that.
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Don1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
259. Here's the Deal
Edited on Wed Dec-07-05 11:33 PM by Don1
We don't really know anything about what happened. News reports saying 1 shot. Some saying 4 or 5 shots. Some say he was bipolar. People here are promoting that to raving lunatic. Some news reports say he had no mental illness at all. An anonymous source in the Administration...*cough*...Scott McClellan...*cough*...says the guy had made bomb threats, but no witness says this.

Here is a more rational scenario.

The guy was slightly flakey, slightly bipolar. He was on lithium. He did not say he had a bomb. He mentioned something about being afraid of a bomb on board. Then, he quickly left the plane, because yeah, he was scared. Maybe he even had a point. Maybe someone else on the plane was seemingly suspicious.

So, he's a bit odd, coming off a plane to/from Columbia and with a backpack. Remember London? Citizens thought the Brazilian guy was Arabic. This Latino man was mistaken for Arabic, due to normal racist crap seeing everyone as Black, White, and in-betweens. Same as in London. So, the field marshalls, hearing a story from the plane transmitted over radio about a bomb on the plane, took that to mean it was this "olive-skinned" fellow with the backpack out ahead of everyone else leaving the plane.

They panicked and shot him. Now, there is a cover-up. The cover-up includes, defaming the guy's mental state. Pretending he threatened the plane with a bomb. Why a cover-up? Because if people knew the truth, they would realize that they are not safer.

We are not safer. That is what this is about. It shows the incompetence of post-911 security teams in airports. And this has ramifications upward all the way to El Presidente. That's why someone in his administration is lying.

We are not safer.

Now someone is dead. He was a good man. He was doing volunteer dentist work in a third-world country. He's dead. Stop defaming him and his memory. Stop with the rumors about him.

A good man is dead and we are not safer.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #259
261. They had other passengers interviewed. And according to them,
this guy was acting pretty strange all the way around, and on the previous plane. Wouldn't follow instructions of the flight attendants, acted strange in customs, etc.
I don't think you can be slightly bi-polar either.
What do you think that is, like being a little bit pregnant?
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Don1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #261
262. Stop helping the corporate news
spread rumors about a good man that got killed. Just stop.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #262
264. Oh for crying out loud. You don't know any more about this man
Edited on Thu Dec-08-05 12:04 AM by lizzy
than anyone else on this board. Good man that got killed, crazy man that got killed-WTF do you know about him, and how on Earth do you think you know more about him than anyone else. And don't tell me what to do. I will do whatever the hell I feel like doing.
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Don1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #264
283. Stop justifying his death. n/t
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nodehopper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #261
265. actually there is a whole spectrum of bipolar disorder
ranging from mild to severe.

And journalists are very good for finding sounbites that substantiate their spin.
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Don1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #265
284. Exactly.
A whole spectrum...spin. Bipolar does not equate to "mentally ill."
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Larissa238 Donating Member (373 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #261
302. There are different types of bipolar
Bipolar 1, the more severe bipolar, and bipolar 2, which is a lot less severe. Maybe he meant BP2. It is like being slightly bipolar.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #259
269. I can see the real story being not too far from this....
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Don1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #269
285. Thanks for being rational. n/t
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #285
296. You're welcome.
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #259
294. thank you Don
Edited on Thu Dec-08-05 12:52 PM by musette_sf
Lots of trigger-happy blusterers here, who refuse to consider or question the few facts reported that now indicate the strong possibility of a possible cover-up. We may never know what happened here, especially in this country as things stand now. But I am astounded at the number of posts in this thread that defend Wild West behavior by law enforcement. Like I said in another post in this thread, this incident is a Bu$h Crime Family Christmas Dream come true. Booga booga, Happy Holidays Merry Christmas, and ohbytheway I notice in LBN that now they're also invoking Osama again.

How come TERRRRRR was most frequently performed in the US by our own citizens (e.g. McVeigh and Rudolph) until Bu$hCo came around? (I know, I know, PNAC, but I'm dumbing this down for the rootin' tootin' shootin' ppl here.) How come the best that ME "terrrrrsts" could do prior to the Bu$hCo coup was a McVeigh-style WTC attack where the guys got caught, tried and jailed? Where were law enforcement, security enforcement, military response, etc., on 9/11/01?

Bu$hCo is turning our country into Prison Planet. This sad event is just more proof. Marginalize, impoverish, imprison, enslave. Eliminate the inconvenient, and stage fear frenzies when most needed to preserve power.
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Radioactive Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 04:10 AM
Response to Original message
267. "Air Marshall did some damn fiiiiine shootin!!"
"that Air Marshall did some damn fiiiiine shootin!!"

Not the words from my mouth but a guest on Fox News as the story was breaking, such a classy thing to say, im sure he is feeling no more guilty about saying it now he realises the guy was mentally ill and had no bomb at all.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #267
270. Someone on one of the DU threads posted this last night
I believe he/she said "It was a good shooting."
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Radioactive Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #270
299. Damn fine shootin!
Edited on Thu Dec-08-05 01:49 PM by Radioactive
No the guest I heard said "That Air Marshall did some damn fiiine shootin!"... I remember it well because I felt sick to my stomach when he said it and had to turn over, he had this excited tone to his voice as well like he was getting some pleasure out of saying it.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #299
306. No, I'm saying a DUer posted the "good shot imo"
on one of these threads last night. Maybe this one. So, it's unfortunately not just a Fox News attitude.
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Not a robought Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 04:16 AM
Response to Original message
268. This thread reminds me
of the MIHOP discussion that took place after the shuttle blew apart on entry.

It's several hours later and we aren't much closer to knowing what took place, but the wild speculation thrives. Evidently, big media had their way with a lot of us today.

I can't make sense of much of this story. what took place between the victim and the FAMs? Do they identify themselves? If they don't, how would anyone know how to respond in such a situation where for all that is known, you are dealing with some random person who happens to have a gun?

If the FAM has only split seconds to make an assessment of whether someone is acting bipolar or the real bomb deal, then I suspect the victim in an agitated state has no time to obey instructions, of a plain clothes anybody brandishing a gun, regardless how they identify themselves - if they even do so.
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Thorandmjolnir Donating Member (390 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
277. Any witnesses saying he had a bomb?
The first mentioning of a bomb on this thread yesterday was from "an unnamed senior official".

I asked why he was unnamed an no one answered.

This morning on CNN they said the man followed instructions and left the plane as he was told to do. A witness said she heard nothing about a bomb, but that the wife kept yelling that he was sick. She also said that the wife was taking into custody immediately.

So my question is: When did the mentioning of a bomb first occur and by whom and have any civilian witnesses confirmed that the man said he had a bomb?
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Puglover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #277
281. A passenger interviewed on ABC
said they were all detained while they searched for the guys backpack. I thought he was killed because he was reaching for it. This is sounding more like the London deal all the time. "Facts" coming out from "unnamed officials" and those being disputed by eyewitnesses. Meanwhile the gun them down to keep us safe crowd continue their spin.
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RaulGroom Donating Member (331 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #281
291. Here's the no-spin version
If the thing went down the way the initial reports came out, it's a shame, a tragedy, but really nobody's fault.

If the feds are lying, and the guy never mentioned a bomb, it's a different story.

Right now we don't know.

All this business about "well, he was mentally ill, so... (we don't really get that part explicitly)" unfortunately you can't diagnose someone with a mental disorder from 21 feet away while pointing a pistol at them. The bottom line is that if you're in an airplane yelling about a bomb, FOR WHATEVER REASON, there's a good chance you're gonna die. Deserve has nothing to do with it, any more than it does for someone driving his motorcycle 150 mph or doing anything else dangerous.
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Don1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #291
292. Hmmm...
There are no witnesses who say he said such things about a bomb. Only officials. Why?
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RaulGroom Donating Member (331 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #292
300. As I said in another post
It is very common that as days and weeks pass after one of these incidents, the facts tend to change, almost always for the worse in terms of the light in which they show the actions of law enforcement. I wouldn't be surprised if that happens in this case, but so far I am reserving judgment. Always unpopular on here, regardless of the issue.
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Don1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #300
313. You did not reserve judgement.
You let your default conclusion be inconsistent with the fact that no civilian witness testimony included mention of him saying he had a bomb. You failed to see through the ruse here.

Now the civlian testimony is coming out even more. Read this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1974759

This civilian says that he never said he had a bomb.
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Algorem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-05 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
290. he said "you gotta see these shoes in my bag,they're the bomb!"
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Don1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
311. This confirms it.
Edited on Fri Dec-09-05 09:17 AM by Don1
Similar to what I said before. He never said bomb. There are NO WITNESSES who say he said it. There is at least one witness who explicitly says he did not say bomb.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1974759
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cosmicdot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
314. will FL's 'Shoot First' law be invoked?

it went into effect Oct. 1

permitting shoot to kill if one 'senses' 'a threat' in a public place ... with immunity
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