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Dover (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 07:03 AM Original message |
Ships, trains could solve US energy crisis |
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mhr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 07:12 AM Response to Original message |
1. Trains Can Be Electrified |
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Dogmudgeon (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 07:26 AM Response to Reply #1 |
2. Not all flying is that expensive |
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mhr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 07:29 AM Response to Reply #2 |
3. See The Hirsch Report |
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Tesha (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 08:00 AM Response to Reply #2 |
7. Flying is *NEVER* energy-cheaper than steel wheels on steel rails. |
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Captain Hilts (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 08:18 AM Response to Reply #7 |
8. Rail is the most energy efficient means of transporting people and stuff. |
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mallard (460 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 01:26 AM Response to Reply #8 |
56. Too bad the rail system... |
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OzarkDem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 08:36 PM Response to Reply #56 |
74. It hasn't been abandoned |
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cantstandbush (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 11:24 PM Response to Reply #8 |
86. And just think of the jobs it would create in making seats, rails, etc. |
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Dogmudgeon (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 12:42 PM Response to Reply #7 |
31. That isn't what I wrote |
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iconoclastNYC (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 05:12 PM Response to Reply #2 |
37. Yes. True |
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Tesha (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 08:09 AM Response to Reply #37 |
57. Not true. |
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iconoclastNYC (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 01:24 PM Response to Reply #57 |
64. Mighty big ifs there. |
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SKKY (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 08:34 AM Response to Reply #1 |
12. I'd much rather take a 9 hour bullet train ride from NY to LA... |
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Lorien (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 08:27 AM Response to Reply #12 |
63. I love train travel. It's very relaxing, people are more civil |
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pokercat999 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 05:01 PM Response to Reply #12 |
70. Getting to the airport 2 hours early along with the drive there |
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RedOnce (519 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 09:44 AM Response to Reply #1 |
16. Yes, electrified and even powered by photocells. |
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Lorien (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 08:22 AM Response to Reply #16 |
61. Or Maglevs on raised monorails. A train was developed here in FL |
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RedOnce (519 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 04:27 PM Response to Reply #61 |
67. Yes, Maglevs! Very nice. |
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TommyO (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 04:57 PM Response to Reply #67 |
68. The 500 Billion spent in Iraq |
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RedOnce (519 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 05:00 PM Response to Reply #68 |
69. Well said! I totally agree. |
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Massacure (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 10:08 PM Response to Reply #68 |
77. $226 billion have been spent in Iraq, not $500 billion. |
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TommyO (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-15-05 09:30 AM Response to Reply #77 |
87. 226B so far, but with much more in the works. |
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Massacure (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-15-05 05:46 PM Response to Reply #87 |
104. Yes, but you said spent, not about to be spent. |
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SammyWinstonJack (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-15-05 01:27 PM Response to Reply #68 |
102. But that wouldn't have made bushco and friends rich beyond their |
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Massacure (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 10:06 PM Response to Reply #16 |
76. There is no way you could get a train going 300 mph on solar power. |
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RedOnce (519 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 10:20 PM Response to Reply #76 |
79. Solar scales up. What's the problem? |
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Massacure (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 10:24 PM Response to Reply #79 |
80. I don't understand. What do you mean by solar scales up? |
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RedOnce (519 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 10:39 PM Response to Reply #80 |
81. If you have enough photocell area exposed to the Sun |
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Massacure (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 10:40 PM Response to Reply #81 |
83. The train is only so big... |
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RedOnce (519 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 10:43 PM Response to Reply #83 |
84. True...so you don't put the photocells on the train! |
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RedOnce (519 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 10:57 PM Response to Reply #84 |
85. Think of the train as part of a linear motor and put the photocells |
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aztc (377 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-15-05 12:57 PM Response to Reply #76 |
99. SSTeam |
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Hypatia82 (207 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 09:59 AM Response to Reply #1 |
18. Jet engines... |
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mhr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 10:23 AM Response to Reply #18 |
21. See The Hirsch Report Cited Above |
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Hypatia82 (207 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 10:25 AM Response to Reply #21 |
22. And when market forces make it favorable... |
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mhr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 10:30 AM Response to Reply #22 |
24. You Obviously Did Not Read The Report And Only Regurgitate |
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Hypatia82 (207 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 01:32 PM Response to Reply #24 |
33. Funny.. |
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mhr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 01:58 PM Response to Reply #33 |
34. Your Not The Only One That Knows A Thing Or Two About Planes |
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Solon (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 10:38 PM Response to Reply #33 |
49. Its also a matter of physics... |
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chopper (345 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 08:17 AM Response to Reply #22 |
59. asdf |
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karlrschneider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 07:32 PM Response to Reply #18 |
39. Nobody damn well better fill my plane's tanks with diesel and let me |
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Porcupine (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 12:31 AM Response to Reply #39 |
51. Google "diesel aviation" you'll be surprised. |
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BiggJawn (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 07:34 AM Response to Original message |
4. "Huge Investment" is an understatement... |
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Cessna Invesco Palin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 07:42 AM Response to Reply #4 |
5. Given the responses... |
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DoYouEverWonder (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 08:22 AM Response to Reply #5 |
10. Run them down the middle of the existing interstate highways |
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Tesha (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 08:47 AM Response to Reply #10 |
13. "If we want to" |
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displacedtexan (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 08:48 AM Response to Reply #10 |
14. I-35 (Texas/Okla) was built with that very idea in mind. |
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Lorien (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 08:24 AM Response to Reply #10 |
62. See post #61. That was nearly done a few years ago in Florida. |
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DoYouEverWonder (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 03:34 PM Response to Reply #62 |
66. Heck, they did it on the Brooklyn Bridge |
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aztc (377 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-15-05 12:36 PM Response to Reply #10 |
97. New Athena National Passeneger Rail System |
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BiggJawn (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 09:25 AM Response to Reply #5 |
15. That's true. |
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midnight armadillo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 10:06 AM Response to Reply #15 |
20. Buildings can be moved |
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Tesha (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 12:26 PM Response to Reply #15 |
28. But "What's good for GM is"... |
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Cessna Invesco Palin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 12:34 PM Response to Reply #15 |
30. How is R-t-T doing these days? |
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BiggJawn (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 12:48 PM Response to Reply #30 |
32. Slow here in Indiana. |
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RedOnce (519 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 09:50 AM Response to Reply #4 |
17. Yes, a Huge Investment but probably a much smaller investment ... |
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Dover (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 07:42 AM Response to Original message |
6. BRING BACK TROLLEYS AND INCREASE MASS TRANSIT! |
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DoYouEverWonder (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 08:23 AM Response to Reply #6 |
11. LEGALIZE |
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Massacure (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 05:08 PM Response to Reply #11 |
36. Hemp has nothing to do with trains. Algae maybe, but not hemp. |
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DoYouEverWonder (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 09:03 PM Response to Reply #36 |
43. Hemp is a great source |
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Massacure (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 10:10 PM Response to Reply #43 |
78. Hemp gives a few hundred gallons per acre. Algae 10,000-20,000. |
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aztc (377 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-15-05 12:55 PM Response to Reply #36 |
98. Hemp for trains |
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aztc (377 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-15-05 12:22 PM Response to Reply #6 |
95. Trolley's in Sacramento |
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Deja Q (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 08:21 AM Response to Original message |
9. Just as long as those jobs are reasonably paid. |
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Rambis (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 10:00 AM Response to Original message |
19. I would ride every day |
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theophilus (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 10:27 AM Response to Original message |
23. Absolutely a fantastic idea and needs to be done. The GOPers can't ruin |
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cally (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 10:33 AM Response to Original message |
25. Another critical reason to save Amtrak |
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wordpix (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 01:59 PM Response to Reply #25 |
35. yes, Save Amtrak! |
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Sequoia (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-15-05 01:08 PM Response to Reply #35 |
101. I love trains. |
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Javaman (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 11:22 AM Response to Original message |
26. Things like this, make me think of, what could have been with Gore... |
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hedgehog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 11:43 AM Response to Original message |
27. What if you could driveyour car onto a train and drive off |
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Tesha (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 12:31 PM Response to Reply #27 |
29. Intermodal transportation is a *VERY GOOD SOLUTION*... |
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NuttyFluffers (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 08:59 PM Response to Reply #29 |
42. hmm, what i'm thinking too. but how to sell the concept? |
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Tesha (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 08:11 AM Response to Reply #42 |
58. I suspect the winning strategy would involve... |
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sidpleasant (376 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 03:27 PM Response to Reply #29 |
65. The railroads are way ahead of you |
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Tesha (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 06:23 PM Response to Reply #65 |
71. (I knew the TOFC stuff, but not the "Green Goat" stuff.) (NT) |
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NuttyFluffers (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 08:53 PM Response to Reply #27 |
40. intriguing... i wonder if that's done now and the cost. |
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DelawareValleyDem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 10:16 PM Response to Reply #40 |
47. Actually, it's done the opposite way (warning: two big images) |
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Vogon_Glory (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 07:22 PM Response to Original message |
38. Freight Railroads Usually Doing Fine, But |
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Solon (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 10:42 PM Response to Reply #38 |
50. Of course they wouldn't take over Amtrak... |
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OzarkDem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 08:44 PM Response to Reply #50 |
75. Passenger rail has to be subsidized |
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cap (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-15-05 10:14 AM Response to Reply #75 |
89. half of me hopes they do privatize |
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gulfcoastliberal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 08:56 PM Response to Original message |
41. K&R - I want a 1st-world rail system, not the current system even the |
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Solon (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 09:15 PM Response to Reply #41 |
45. Not necessarily... |
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gulfcoastliberal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 09:46 PM Response to Reply #45 |
46. You have some great ideas; I was thinking of human sewage discharge |
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Solon (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 10:22 PM Response to Reply #46 |
48. Some other ideas, for any type of large water craft... |
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gulfcoastliberal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 12:39 AM Response to Reply #48 |
52. Great ideas! You should post in the environment forum! |
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Solon (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 01:02 AM Response to Reply #52 |
54. I have many more too! |
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Tesha (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 08:18 AM Response to Reply #45 |
60. Solar power (on the trains) is insufficient. |
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Solon (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 08:00 PM Response to Reply #60 |
72. Wasn't talking about trains, but barges. n/t |
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mahatmakanejeeves (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-15-05 10:40 AM Response to Reply #60 |
92. An answer based on engineering |
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aztc (377 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-15-05 11:57 AM Response to Reply #60 |
94. Solar Steam Train |
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Xithras (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 08:31 PM Response to Reply #41 |
73. The riverboat also won't work because we don't have navigable rivers. |
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rfkrfk (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Dec-13-05 09:05 PM Response to Original message |
44. tax on airline jet fuel in the US is four cents a gallon |
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aztc (377 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-15-05 12:30 PM Response to Reply #44 |
96. Jet fuel is kerosene is heating oil |
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truthisfreedom (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 12:41 AM Response to Original message |
53. and of course, so many railroad tracks have been ripped up in the name of |
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Solon (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 01:06 AM Response to Reply #53 |
55. Actually that isn't the worst idea in the first place... |
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aztc (377 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-15-05 12:59 PM Response to Reply #55 |
100. NANPRS |
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Gregorian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Dec-14-05 10:39 PM Response to Original message |
82. The fact is, we are running out of oil. |
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Larkspur (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-15-05 10:09 AM Response to Original message |
88. This has been known for quite some time, but the trucking industry and |
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hedgehog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-15-05 10:16 AM Response to Original message |
90. Sad but true |
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jokerman93 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-15-05 10:38 AM Response to Original message |
91. There's always THIS forgotten technology |
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olddad56 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-15-05 11:32 AM Response to Original message |
93. would all of these blue collar workers go to illegal immigrants? |
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november3rd (653 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Dec-15-05 01:40 PM Response to Original message |
103. why is this just making news now? |
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