Bankruptcy law backfires on credit card issuers

Credit card issuers and other lenders spent a small fortune to get bankruptcy reform legislation passed. Now the new law is costing them even more.

An unprecedented spike in filings before reform took effect in fall 2005 is chewing into lenders' bottom lines, and the subsequent lull is showing signs of being short-lived. Bankruptcy attorneys say their caseloads are starting to pick up, and credit counseling agencies -- which provide now-mandatory sessions for consumers who want to file -- say they're seeing significantly more people than they initially predicted.

All this is raising questions about whether lenders will profit as much from the new bill as they hoped.

It wasn't supposed to be this way. The new law contains a “means test” that was supposed to steer higher-income filers toward repayment plans. Lenders expected a rush of consumers trying to beat the bankruptcy deadline, but nothing like the surge that actually occurred. More than 500,000 bankruptcy cases were filed in the two weeks before the law took effect, compared with a normal weekly volume of 30,000 to 35,000. So far this year more than 2 million cases have been filed, 49% more than the same period last year and eclipsing all previous records.



http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/Banking/bankruptcyguide/P135860.asp

be careful what they wished for. :eyes:

They really thought they could keep screwing us up forever, then passed a draconian law to their exclusive benefit that nails consumers and sends them to financial hell.

Hope the credit industry enjoys their sagging numbers; they brought it to themselves.

Certainly it doesn't represent the interests of the majority of Americans.

Let Congress's roll call voting record speak for itself.

No wonder most folks think less of Congress than they do of *

I'm not doing Hillary bashing (but if she did vote for it, she deserves it). She's just the only one who comes to mind in answer to your question.

She was absent. Bill's surgery was the same day.

she could've, at least, stated how she would have voted on the recently passed bill passed had she been present ... just for the record ...

U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 107th Congress - 1st Session

Vote Summary

Question: On Passage of the Bill (H.R. 333 As Amended )
Vote Number: 236 Vote Date: July 17, 2001, 04:06 PM
Required For Majority: 1/2 Vote Result: Bill Passed
Measure Number: H.R. 333 (Bankruptcy Reform Act of 2001 )
Measure Title: A bill to amend title 11, United States Code, and for other purposes.
Vote Counts: YEAs 82
NAYs 16
Present 1
Not Voting 1

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=1&vote=00236

That really sucks!:mad:

I'm not sure if this was a factor.

Corporate State of America. They have long had the most corporate friendly laws in the nation, for the purpose of drawing in companies to their state.

It's the Credit Card Capitol of the country (was South Dakota for a while, when they dropped anti-usury laws in the early 1970's); also the "Incorporation Capitol".

I'm not sure what to type in to get a proper Google Search, but try checking out how many companies are incorporated in Delaware...you'll probably be shocked if you didn't know about this practice before.

(by practice, I'm referring to the enormous number of companies, headquartered all across the country, whom incorporate in Delaware...sometime their only presence in Delaware is a P.O. box)

Or those with unforeseen medical debt.

That's news to me!

If it's not, then your insinuation is absurd at best.

He's had some good moments lately and some very bad ones in the recent past - this is one of the reasons I'm at most - guarded - in my tepid support of him.

Sponsored this POS legislation and voted down every amendment that would have made it even mildly bearable, such as exempting the elderly who'd had perfect credit all their lives but had a medical emergency, and other vulnerable groups. Purple-finger Joe sold his soul, that's for sure.

Credit card addresses out of the wazoo....

huge corporate donations filled his pockets. Yup, he has what it takes to be a prez, he lies, screws the little guy and takes huge corporate donations. yup, total scumbag.

and better. Guess Biden was counting on short memories of voters and big pockets of contributors.

OOPS forgot the "f"

if he's so pro-corporate.

For complete list look here http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00044
Learn who the traitors are and don't ever forget!

Edit to add: Clinton did not vote, but she supported and voted in favor of previous attempts. Surprisingly Lieberman voted against it.

:grr:

does that work for you?

;)

as well. I'm scared to death to have a credit card when I know they can add any fees they like, compounded, and raise your rate for being late on unrelated bills.

How many Christmas presents can one girl get?

I closed my credit card out, and I'm not going to apply for another one. There are several reasons. Most bankruptcies filed were filed by people who tried in good faith to pay their bills, but who either lost jobs or got too sick to work and lost part or all of their income. Under the old bankruptcy laws there was a safety net which would allow you to discharge your debts and be done with it. Your credit was ruined for 10 years, so it's not like you were getting away with anything. A judge decided whether or not individual bankruptcies could be filed.

This new law bases ability to repay on "median" income. Median income is determined by averaging a range of low to very high incomes and coming up with an average figure. The new law says that if you meet a certain "median" income figure then you must repay everything, whether you can actually do it or not. In some places like San Francisco, Los Angeles, Manhattan and many other "desirable" places to live the average salaries sound very high, but the fact that they don't necessarily go very far is not taken into consideration. The creditors decide whether or not the debt is actually discharged.

Also, the credit card companies have started to target lower income credit card holders to pay more fees, and suddenly jacked up the amount of their minimum payments from 2% of balance due to 4% of balance due. If you are living on a tight budget, that can make a big difference. They are also charging fees to people who pay minimum payments instead of paying the balance in full. Sound fun yet?

The credit card companies make a fortune from interest. The people who pay the most interest are the people who make minimum payments. Now,in addition to the interest, the credit card companies are raking in extra fees from them for payments which are on time, payments which are late, payments which they consider to be posted too close to the payment deadline, and they charge check charges if the check bounces, for putting the check through twice.

I read about that in two or three different places before the law changed and decided I didn't want any part of unsecured credit anymore. I'll save for my goodies. The credit industry can go pound sand.

we only have one card for car rentals and emergencies. And it feels GOOD.

I had this epiphany in 1980. I needed a car, a modest car at that, to replace the dying one I had. I wasn't about to go to one of those "buy here pay here" places, the prices were ridiculous.

I needed $2000. I ran across an ad for "signature loans" from an company called Aetna Finance. I applied for the loan, paid 24% interest, which even at that time was outrageous, put up basically everything I owned (bedroom furniture, stereo) as collateral in a "chattel appraisal". I was so disgusted with the whole thing I swore I'd never borrow money again - except to buy a house.

I kept my promise to myself and it has served me well. I use credit cards for convenience, but I only buy what I can pay that month. Let the banks pay me interest, I'm not paying them.

Back in the late 80s my wife and I decided to pay off all credit - then we started saving like crazy and accumulated a fair amount. Two things I want to mention:

1) I hate banks and bankers - always have. Roughly 15 years ago we had a mortgage. When we took out the loan, we agreed to open a savings account and keep enough in the account to allow the bank to sweep our mortgage payment automatically - it was all for the bank's convenience. A day or two before the mortgage payment was due, we'd plunk the mortgage payment into the account and they'd sweep it out the next day. Otherwise the account always had a zero balance - it was a piece of crap account paying maybe 2% when CDs were paying 7% to 8%. After a couple of years the bank initiated a new fee for savings accounts - $1.00 per year. It had been free. I refused to pay it as a matter of principle. If it is $1.00 today it could be $10.00 tomorrow. Plus the account existed for their convenience, and I had never agreed to pay any fee. A bank officer called my wife and was snotty with her - said we'd "never get another loan here unless you pay the fee". As luck would have it, we had been saving for awhile by then. I took almost every penny we had, wrote a check for the balance of the mortgage, mailed it to the bank president with a description of the officer's behavior, and told them to shove it. The snotty officer was ordered to crawl back to me, and needless to say, I gave her a thorough education. We haven't had a penny of debt since - with one exception:

2) After paying off the mortgage we went for almost 15 years without ANY debt of any kind. In the meantime we were saving. At this point I don't foresee the need to borrow ever again. However, I didn't realize that one simply drops off the radar screen entirely if one has no debt whatsoever for a very long time. Lately I've been hearing that personal credit ratings are utilized by insurance companies to set rates, and that employers use them to make hiring decisions. Since we had dropped off the radar (we had plenty of assets and no need for debt) we simply could not get credit of any kind! I tried and was denied. There's an assumption in this economy that everyone has debt, and there's no mechanism in the system to account for those who don't. So I went to my Credit Union, explained the situation to them, and because they knew me, they issued a VISA card for the sole purpose of establishing a decent credit score. I was concerned that insurance companies might gouge us because we would appear, per our credit rating, to be deadbeats. It seems the bastards get you one way or the other.

Anyway, we have one VISA and we use it regularly and pay off the balance monthly (we never pay a penny in interest or fees). Plus I kind of like using their money for free. The thought occurred to me while reading this thread that if people really want to stick it to the banking industry... rather than opting out of the system altogether, consider using their money for free (while remaining on the radar for other reasons).

Ha! Ha! Too bad for them.

The money people rarely leave a stone un-turned. I'm sure they studied worst/best case scenarios. It just went south more than they thought it would.
They always bounce back. Bastards.

Money people aren't gods and neither is Rove. Greed and pride goeth before the fall.

The Bastards will still take a hit, but you can bet the new laws are rigged in their favor.

I worked credit card support and saw how these companies made huge offers before new law. They would up their credit line without informing customers. They offered the cards with low rates, but forgot to tell them rate was variable, oh it was in fine print, but very few read the fine print. What a shock customers got when the Feds raised the rates, within 2 years their interest rates went up from 2 to 4% more on their credit cards. I agree it was a planned effort to gut the poor into debt. I was there.
And don't even go into the prepaid cards, Western Union prepaid card was a shame. I felt guilty working this prepaid card. It was like a big cat waiting to jump on their prey, very disgusting.

What about the prepaid card? I don't know anything about it, but your post really piqued my curiosity.

I declared last summer - before the law changed. Now I get all these applications. But I've been there before and I'm not EVER going back.

Talking to my attorney, used to be a lot of people who declared bankruptcy went right back to their old habits and sometimes even declared bankruptcy again after 7 years or whatever. But I think there is a new kind of bankruptcy filer; the type that feels victimized by the credit card companies and refuses to go into business with them again.

Problem is, you DO need a credit card for somethings, like to rent a car. But, maybe there is a way to rent a car without a credit card?

When you rent a car on a Debit Card, they take out a deposit on the rental. Mine was $300. When I returned the car, they added up my charges and refunded the balance of the $300 back to my debit card. So, it can be done if you have money in your bank account.

I dropped Credit Cards a dozen years and haven't looked back. I do pretty much everything on my debit card. If I need to do anything big, I just save for it.

I hope the bankruptcy legislation bites them all in the ass. They have been wanting this for years and they deserve the consequences.

If I can't afford it NOW, I don't BUY it.

If other American citizens followed suit, do big corporations, real estate investors, etc., have ANY IDEA how much that could affect their bottom line?

creeps the old-fashioned way: by not doing business with them.

We've been credit-less for about 10 years now. We only use a debit card. None of us are in debt. It's a beautiful way to live. If we don't gots it, we don't buys it.

If you purchase a big ticket item on a credit card, you want to return the item for any reason and the company gives you the run-around, the credit card company will negotiate with the company in getting it returned or replaced.

I couldn't get Urners to take back a big screen TV with a defect, they wanted me to go directly through the manufacturer.

I contacted my credit card company as part of my buyer's protection plan and Urners had a truck come pick up the TV two days later.


That said, I do pay off the balance of my card every month. I'm carrying no credit balances at this time, not even a mortgage (paid it off early).

only a bank debit card. I get, no lie, about 15 applications from Capital One every single week. I fill them with shredded paper when I have the time, and mail them back. HA!

n/t

For the people who can't take the back door out of being overextended on credit, they will be walking away from homes. This is not the kind of problem the banks will want in the long run. A tumbling housing market will hurt them in areas well beyond the enslaved credit card junkies.

Once the real estate bubble bursts, all those people who bought homes with 100% financing will realize that they have zero equity after making payments for several years, and they'll walk.

I hope this is only the start of their just desserts. I hope the CEO of MBNA tries to file for bankruptcy and gets personally screwed by the very law he lobbied what little remained of his tiny heart out for.

BofA bought MBNA this year.

Consider it a sidebar.

helped educate more people about the bankrupcy bill, that's why the numbers are so high. :)

In each and every case, as in my real life, I urged the people to take advantage of the old law and file for bankruptcy. All had significant credit card debt.

It's what all my legal colleagues counselled their clients. So you've got a bad credit rating for a while? So what? You get a new credit card immediately - no problem there,eh? - and start rebuilding your credit post-haste.

It's not like the lenders are going to pass you by. Hell, you're their bread-and-butter, and they only exist to lend money to anyone.

and as I posted here on DU months before the deadline for filing, he told me "the credit card companies are NEVER going to recoup the losses from this idiotic law". He had more business than he could ever handle, they had to stop taking cases a week before the deadline, they just couldn't handle any more.
Talk about shooting yourselves in the foot! And to Biden and Reid who so steadfastly backed this law, FUCK YOU! Biden ranks right up there with Lieberman as Democrats that do more harm than good for our party. Reid....... he has his moments but this wasn't one of them.
As I recall it was the turncoat Democrats that gave this law life, had they stuck together and opposed it I don't think it would have passed. Way to stick up for the working man and woman, assholes!

I haven't paid on credit for over ten years. If I don't have it I don't spend it.

But, what they are seeing show's the reality. From the story:

Bankruptcy attorneys and many consumer advocates worry the counseling requirement will allow agencies to divert potential filers into debt repayment plans that the debtors can ill afford. But Keating said her agencies, which currently represent 80% of the counselors approved by the Justice Department, aren't seeing many clients who have the ability to repay their debts.

"The conversion rate of customers who are eligible to go into an alternative, a debt-management plan, has been very, very low," Keating said. "These customers are really in serious financial trouble and have no alternative other than filing for bankruptcy."

That's certainly been true at Riverside, Calif.-based Springboard, which counseled 2,200 pre-bankrupts between Oct. 17 and Nov. 28, said President Dianne Wilkman. Wilkman said her counselors, who mostly talk with customers by phone, sometimes have to strain to average the 90 minutes the Justice Department requires of pre-bankruptcy counseling sessions because their clients' situations are so cut and dried.

After all, people in Delaware have NO CHOICE but to work for the credit card companies!!! Just because it hurts those unfortunate enough to have massive medical debt doesn't mean you should hate, say, Joe Biden for sucking off the credit card lobbyists!

:sarcasm:

I use credit card for gasoline purchases only...Its very convenient and with the 5% rebate on gas purchases offered by my credit card company..I'm really ahead...pay every 30 days same as cash, they don't make a dime off of me!

Screw the greedy bastards. I'm paying off my balance (finally) next month and never applying for another card as long as I live.

I pay my credit cards online and on-time on the first day of the month. One of them operates on a 28-day cycle which meant I eventually was a day late on a payment (no matter that I made a payment a day EARLY 29 days before). I was charged a $35 late fee and my interest rate went from 15.90 % to 27.99. I bitched and they took off the late charge, but the interest rate "must stay there pending a 6 mo review." What bullcrap! I cancelled the card, and when I get the remaining one with a balance paid off I will only use my bank debit card, gas & Penneys card. If we can only educate the college kids NOT to respond to offers AND the rest of us give up our cards, well then American Expressure and Masterscrew will be out of business.

in the credit card industry.

I have one credit card that I use for gas. Maybe books, or CDs. But, I make sure I use it regularly.

I watch my account online, and as soon as the total amount hits $100, sometimes not even that much, I pay it. There are months when I pay my credit card bill three times, and each time, I add 10% to whatever the total is.

So, when they email me my bill, I always have a credit.

After all, it's a "credit" card, right?

Those companies hate people like me, and we're regarded - seriously - as "deadbeats," a term once reserved for people who ditched their debts.

Funny how BushSpeak has invaded everywhere, is it not?

without this wonderful Tom Tomorrow cartoon:

Found here:
http://www.workingforchange.com/comic.cfm?itemid=18719

Those bloodsucking leeches aren't going to get me.

--get them from credit unions. I have two cards from credit unions--neither has annual fees, and one has $15K limit and 6% interest. I pay the full balance just about all the time, last month being one of the rare exceptions. I had to get the engine and the suspension replaced on my car, and was glad of the high limit. The interest I paid that month partly comes back to me, because as a member of the credit union, I own part of it. I'll pay the rest of the balance this month.

The idiots cut their own throat and don't realize it.

from people paying off their cards and not taking out new ones. I got a letter from Chase with a pile of low interest checks that read: "We noticed you recently made a large payment on your account and we want to be sure we don't lose your business . . . yada, yada, yada." I can't get these things paid off fast enough and once I do, that's that. No more.

There was a time when I would have been like, "Oh! Great - now I can buy that sweater/enjoy a meal out/etc." Now, I tear them in half and throw them in the garbage.

they seem to burn at a really high temperature....bwahahahahaha

because people are paying off their cards in a hurry and not charging more. Basically, this bill has taught credit consumers a lesson, and people I know (including me) are hurrying to pay off and cut up cards. I have already paid off two cards within the past year, and will pay off the other two by this time next year. And then, no more consumer credit at all for me.

I am hearing the same thing from almost everyone I know. We are all doing it. How about the rest of you guys? Are you and your friends doing the same? Soon the only people who will be using credit will be those in such dire straights because of medical expenses or other catastrophes that they will still not be able to be shunted into Chapter 13 from Chapter 11.

Talk about killing the goose that laid the golden egg. Dumb asses! In the long run, they might have unintentionally done the middle-class consumer a bit of a favor ("unintentionally," because they certainly intended harm to us, not benefit), by creating a situation that severely discourages the use of credit for anything much other than emergencies.

because it's often the right which accuses the left of making laws with unintended consequences.

will work on the next one, while being gouged on three other ones.

The real pain is that I have paid over and about six times what I originally charged on the card I paid off last week and the one I'm paying off this coming week.

The banks issuing credit cards are theives, pure and simple. The money we "owe" the credit card companies is extortion. It should be, and once was, illegal. It was called loan sharking and would get anyone convicted of it ten years in the slammer.

Poor credit card companies. :cry:



:rofl:

discharge (official release of the debt), we started receiving credit card offers in the mail yet again. (No, we have not taken any up on their offer.)

One more thing I want to add to this discussion: When your family has a crisis and you have credit cards, medical people and whatnot know about them from your credit report. One of the things which brought us the most grief was paying off medical bills using credit cards. That is, when the hospital would call, those on the phone would threaten to turn the amount over to a collection agency (even if we were paying monthly on the debt). We were told this would affect our credit rating and our ability to receive medical care. So, we would pay off the hospital and other medical bills with the credit cards. When we maxed out our first card, we had an average of 3% interest on the cards. This went up rather quickly as our other credit card holders increased interest rates after re-assessing our 'risk level.'

When we got to the point that we could no longer put medical bills on credit cards (because they were maxed out), and one such bill was sent to collection, the rates really began to spike -- 18%, 22% and one at 28%. It was a train wreck & we had little choice but to file bankruptcy.

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

And it does offer safeguards--especially for ordering online. So I use it a lot.

My Debit card works like a Visa for the "we don't accept American Express" crowd. But the money comes straight out of my checking account.

no more...

they screwed themselves... HA HA HA!!!

There's always a credit card company willing to issue a card to high risk borrowers, even those in bankruptcies.

Consumers will stop spending so much on cards, and paying off their debts for fear of the new bankruptcy law.

many people pretend they do not understand that credit card money is not a gift or entitlement, it is a temporary
loan that must be paid back according to an agreement.

bankruptcy is so ... bush.


Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

What put #53 into bakruptcy were the banks, not #53's actions. #53 was in a tough spot and the banks couldn't give a fuck. The banks saw a way to make a profit on someone else's misery.

I don't even use a debit card anymore - just cash and check. Why give the banks any part of my dollarthat I spend?

"they borrowed it so they have to live with the consequences" If I was wrong I apologize. Also, I left the :sarcasm: emoticon out of my reply.

reasonable interest rate. But at 29.9% and a $35.00 "late fee" imposed even if it is paid on time (but on a weekend or one minute after midnight on the designated day) is outrageous.

When not one, but two medical disasters hit our family in less than two years, our credit rating went to hell. Those credit card companies immediately raised our interest rates, even when we had been paying on time. I have not charged anything on my credit cards for more than a year, and yet my balance never goes down...

of fine print in the agreements.

There's no pretense about it on part of the customers.


PBS Frontline
Secret history of the credit card
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/credit/

underperform MBNA et al's targets; the harm it will cause american consumers will be real and will occur. People will be forced into CH 13 plans, most of which fail, and as a result people will be put out of the mainstream economy. Lawyers are getting out of the debtors rights business. Couple this with the spike in housing costs and coming correction in housing values you will see a perfect storm of misery for consumers.

I'm glad I gave up credit cards in 1999. Been partying since. :headbang:

I'm glad I gave up credit cards in 1999. Been partying since. :headbang:

I use them for everything I can.

Between Citibank and Discover, they paid me over $500 this year.

Plus I get an extended warranties, etc.

I always pay in full and on time though, the cards that pay cash back can have high rates and fees.

they make the most profit off of people who can barely make minimum payments.

PBS Frontline
Secret history of the credit card
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/credit/

the main reason people file for bankruptcy is health problems (and the debt incurred from our lack of any universal coverage. The second is job loss and then divorce (I think the order is correct). Fradulent deadbeats are about 2-3%. This myth was perpetuated by the CC industry. One interesting thing that will come back and bite the CC companies is the higher minimum payment written into the law. I think the CC will eventually regret this law. I have been CC free since 02 (and have not missed them) and am working hard to pay off all my debts (via Dave Ramsey's Total Money Makeover). I will never handle those snakes again.

I managed to eliminate all my credit card debt before this.

Now I simply will not use them, unless there is a twist and I get cash back while only spending money I have already on account.

Except for one credit card I keep at a small balance just to have it for various required purposes.

The system must change if the fact that a credit card company is HQ'ed in someone's state or district means they feel compelled to vote for such a piece of carp.

:puke:

I've also gotten rid of all CCs. I expect I'll need to get one again though, if only to ease buying online and car rental and emergency type situations.... BUT - I'm going to see if I can't get one issued from a Canadian bank or something like that so that the US credit industry can't get a piece of my action.

Sometimes you have to ask for it.

It is your bank account only the card has a visa logo on it.

You don't have to have a visa account through your bank for this. (visa is a name leased by the banks). They literally only hook it up to your checking account. You can use it anywhere that takes visa.

If you are earning less than median Income for your state you are Presumed NOT to be abusing the Bankruptcy Court System and thus can still file chapter 7. Furthermore if you are below the US Government Poverty Level you can have the filing fee for Chapter 7 Bankruptcy waived (The fee went up to $274 in the bill but also included a new provision permitting a filer to file In Forma Pauperas or IFP status and have the Fee WAIVED, and this includes the Credit Consoling part, i.e. if you are blow the poverty Guidelines for your state ALL FEES INVOLVING BANKRUPTCY CAN BE WAIVED).

The people most hurt by this bill are those people earning more than Median income for their state, and even they can play with some numbers and still file Chapter 7. It has been estimated that only about 5% of the people filing Bankruptcy was affected by the new act.

Median Income by State:
http://www.usdoj.gov/ust/eo/bapcpa/bci_data/median_income_table.htm

List of Approved Credit Counselors:
http://www.usdoj.gov/ust/eo/bapcpa/ccde/cc_approved.htm

For listing of 150% of the Federal Poverty Level:
http://www.ahs.state.vt.us/oeo/povguide.htm

Bankruptcy Trustee (For more on the New Act):
http://www.usdoj.gov/ust/index.htm

I discovered we are considered at under 125% of poverty, so proving the need for Ch. 7 shouldn't be difficult. We probably can't get the fees waived. Sigh.

Which is quite low. If you are below Median income you are presumed NOT to be abusing the Bankruptcy System. Thus the two list, the list of Median income by state to see if you are "Abusing" the Bankruptcy System, and the 150% of Poverty list for waving the filing fee. Most legal Services use 125% of the Poverty level for eligibility, through that varies from program to program and from state to state (New England State provide the most services do to State funding in addition to Federal Funding, the American South provides the least for those programs are almost all Federally funded only, the Southern States underfund ALL parts of the Justice Systems compared to the rest of the Country).

Maybe something "good" will come out of the disaster of our finances. The whole mess started when Hubby was laid off by WorldCom...been down hill ever since. Thanks again.

I am not sure there are public legal services available in our county (Lake Co., CA) for bankruptcy. There is only one attorney that even does bankruptcies here and I wouldn't use her. I am told the district bankruptcy court functions out of Santa Rosa (Sonoma Co.).

:nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity:

The servants of satan are burning their own bippies and I laugh in their twisted little faces.