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U.S. sub may have toured Canadian Arctic zone illegally

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IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 11:06 PM
Original message
U.S. sub may have toured Canadian Arctic zone illegally
U.S. sub may have toured Canadian Arctic zone
'We don't have any idea what's going on up there': expert

Chris Wattie, National PostPublished:
Monday, December 19, 2005

A U.S. nuclear submarine cruised through the Arctic Ocean last month -- probably passing through Canadian territorial waters -- but the federal government is refusing to say whether it gave permission for the voyage.

However, experts say it is highly unlikely Canada was even notified of the USS Charlotte's northern tour, which included a Nov. 10 stop at the North Pole, because it has no way of tracking what goes on beneath the Arctic ice.

And that could threaten Canada's claim to hundreds of thousands of square kilometres of the North, including the Northwest Passage route across the Arctic, said Michael Byers, who holds the Canada research chair in global politics and international law at the University of British Columbia.

"This is very important -- it's crucial," he said. "Any unauthorized passage could have a serious effect on our claim."
Prof. Byers said potentially lucrative oil and gas resources off the Queen Elizabeth Islands could slip out of Canadian control if foreign navies are operating in the Arctic without our permission. "The fact of the matter is that we've spent nothing on Arctic sovereignty over the past 20 years."

>>>>snip

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=fb21432a-1d28-415e-b323-ceb22d477732&k=69493
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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
1. My boat did it first
The USS Skate surfaced at the North Pole in 1959.

Many boats have done it since then. I'm sure they were in Canadian territorial waters at different points.

http://www.ssn578.com/
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. You were on the USS Skate surfaced at the North Pole? Cool!
Maybe you could answer a few questions I've always wanted to ask: How thick was the Ice when they did that? Was the Ice pre-broken? And how did they do it without damaging the boat?
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Submariner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. The sail planes and sail are reinforced
steel able to push through about 4 feet of unbroken ice by just floating up underneath it.

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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. I'm not THAT old
However Captain James F. Calvert is still alive and showing up at Skate reunions.

As the other poster noted, the sail is reinforced to allow the boat to surface through the ice.

I highly recommend Calvert's Surface at the Pole.
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LastLiberal in PalmSprings Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-19-05 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Reverse the situation: Canada enters waters claimed by the U.S.
From the article:

Canada claims water 12 nautical miles out from the Queen Elizabeth Islands, and all the straits and inlets as its internal waters. The Americans say those are international waterways that are free for anyone to cross, including the Northwest Passage.

Some information on why it's important:

Merchant ships of all flags have the right of “innocent passage” in a nation's territorial waters; the rights of nonbelligerent foreign warships in this zone, and the extent of the jurisdiction of the coastal nation's courts over ships passing through and incidents in the zone, have long been matters of debate. Fishing and mineral extraction within the zone are entirely within the control of the coastal nation. In the 20th cent., coastal nations progressively widened their claims over offshore waters, especially in the face of competition from foreign fishing fleets and in anticipation of rich oil, gas, and mineral finds on the continental shelf. The UN-sponsored Law of the Sea Treaty, which went into effect in 1994, codified territorial waters of 12 nautical mi (13.8 mi/22.2 km) and an exclusive economic zone of 200 nautical mi (230 mi/370 km). In 1999, U.S. agencies were empowered by presidential proclamation to enforce American law up to 24 miles (39 km) offshore, doubling the previous limit. ...


Under U.S. property law (real estate, not water) you can lose your property if you allow it to be used as a right-of-way -- for example, a sidewalk -- without posting that the right to pass is granted by the owner and is revocable at any time. I imagine the same applies to maritime law. "Use it or lose it," so to speak. If Canada doesn't speak up now it will make it harder for them to object later if the U.S. decides to drill there.
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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. The Soviets did it to us and we knew it. We did it to them.
This is how the "game" is played. It happens all the time.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-20-05 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
4. An ice free Northwest passage would be a shorter Europe-Asia corridor
As was the initial motive for trying to find this route. The nation who controls the route would certainly have a significant future asset (as global warming continues).
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