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sabra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 12:19 AM
Original message
NYT: Spying Program Snared U.S. Calls

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/21/politics/21nsa.html?ex=1292821200&en=91d434311b0a7ddc&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Spying Program Snared U.S. Calls

WASHINGTON, Dec. 20 - A surveillance program approved by President Bush to conduct eavesdropping without warrants has captured what are purely domestic communications in some cases, despite a requirement by the White House that one end of the intercepted conversations take place on foreign soil, officials say.

The officials say the National Security Agency's interception of a small number of communications between people within the United States was apparently accidental, and was caused by technical glitches at the National Security Agency in determining whether a communication was in fact "international."

Telecommunications experts say the issue points up troubling logistical questions about the program. At a time when communications networks are increasingly globalized, it is sometimes difficult even for the N.S.A. to determine whether someone is inside or outside the United States when making a cellphone call or sending an e-mail message. As a result, people that the security agency may think are outside the United States are actually on American soil.

...

But in at least one instance, someone using an international cellphone was thought to be outside the United States when in fact both people in the conversation were in the country. Officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the program remains classified, would not discuss the number of accidental intercepts, but the total is thought to represent a very small fraction of the total number of wiretaps that Mr. Bush has authorized without getting warrants. In all, officials say the program has been used to eavesdrop on as many as 500 people at any one time, with the total number of people reaching perhaps into the thousands in the last three years.



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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
1. That's it. We need the list.
Hand over the list, George.
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Child_Of_Isis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
33. I bet a lot of Republicans are on the list also.
The fat cats on the hill. Get the goods on them to keep them in line.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #1
41. I want a list of all who knew, approved and executed this program!!!
Edited on Thu Dec-22-05 09:49 AM by Just Me
Court-marshall every single damn one of them all the way to the CIC!!!

GAWD!!! This makes me sick!!! We ARE a police state, FOR REAL!!! :puke:

And the effin' NEW YORK TIMES colluding to cover this up!!! DAMN!!! :grr:
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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
2. Sounds like the new standard for suspicion is possible cause.
As opposed to probable cause.

Fishing expedition. Don't get a bite? Move on, drill a new hole in the ice, try again.
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CottonBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 12:33 AM
Response to Original message
3. "accidental intercepts" my ass. Call it domestic spying. Call it treason.
Indict. Impeach. Imprison.
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 06:06 AM
Response to Reply #3
23. First, Chimpo admits to the domestic spying, then they say...
...it was all a big "oopsie?"

Uh-huh...

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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 06:35 AM
Response to Reply #3
26. It's irrelevant.
It doesn't matter if only one end of the call was domestic - it's still completely illegal.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 12:34 AM
Response to Original message
4. But, it was just a few....and it was just an accident...we only tortured
a few people, really.

I mean, you can trust us.
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zapp Donating Member (617 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 12:48 AM
Response to Original message
5. These Assholes Cannot be trusted. At All. For Any Reason.
Ever Again.
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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
6. Oopsie.
See, now if only oral sex were involved somehow...
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Kablooie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
7. And look at this! ...
"But questions about the legal and operational oversight of the program last year prompted the administration to suspend aspects of it temporarily and put in place tighter restrictions on the procedures used to focus on suspects, said people with knowledge of the program. The judge who oversees the secret court that authorizes intelligence warrants - and which has been largely bypassed by the program - also raised concerns about aspects of the program."

Tighter restriction on the procedures were changed around a year ago.

Around a year ago is when the administration learned that the NY Times knew about the plan.

Who were they spying on before this?

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wookie294 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 01:38 AM
Response to Original message
8. "Accidental" my ass
This is good news. It sounds like there is real abuse and officials are leaking bogus information that they spied "accidentally" to save their asses from pending indictments.
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 02:02 AM
Response to Original message
9. Suprise--not really
I haven't felt safe from my government since king george was corinated.
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drfresh Donating Member (424 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 02:36 AM
Response to Original message
10. Dean is sending a Freedom of Information letter
for the details of this program. Check out http://www.democrats.org/foia to sign on.
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JaneQPublic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #10
39. Thanks. I added my name to the FOIA requests. (eom)
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NightOwwl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 02:40 AM
Response to Original message
11. "technical glitches"
Edited on Wed Dec-21-05 02:42 AM by NightOwwl
Oh...that is really rich.

We have got to get these criminals out of the White House right now.

eta: I hope this is a series of timed leaks by the NYT...and I hope the next one is a list of names. We MUST SEE the LIST OF NAMES.
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InkAddict Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Must have been "sunspots"
I seem to remember solar flares causing quite a few alerts this past year (LOL)- NOT FUNNY!
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #11
31. Sulzberger owes America, big-time.........
he let Judas Miller get away without any oversight at all, without once demanding to know who her sources were in the buildup to the invasion of Iraq. Sulzberger has taken the NYT down to the pits of journalistic integrity, he owes it to the American people to pull the plug on these fuckers if he has the proof. If he has information about the targets of these illegal wiretaps he MUST come forward with it. No more bullshit from the NYT!
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 03:05 AM
Response to Original message
12. I told my ex today... If I disappear into a secret jail....
take care of our boys.

He said "If you disappear into a secret jail, I'm getting out my old gun and people are gonna start dying."

I didn't know whether to be flattered or frightened!
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 03:28 AM
Response to Original message
14. Gasp, the New York Times doing their job??
Maybe the Washington Post will get around to it, too. What with so much of this seeming reminiscent of the Watergate years.
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Kiouni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 03:43 AM
Response to Original message
15. Maybe I'll
Start emailing and texting my neighbors address and the word bush repeatedly so the cops will finally kick the drug dealers out (of the country)
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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 03:47 AM
Response to Original message
16. NY Times Nails Bush again: NSA officials say domestic calls were tapped
Edited on Tue Dec-20-05 10:15 PM by stop the bleeding

The officials say the National Security Agency's interception of a small number of communications between people within the United States was apparently accidental, and was caused by technical glitches at the National Security Agency in determining whether a communication was in fact "international."

Telecommunications experts say the issue points up troubling logistical questions about the program. At a time when communications networks are increasingly globalized, it is sometimes difficult even for the N.S.A. to determine whether someone is inside or outside the United States when making a cellphone call or sending an e-mail message. As a result, people that the security agency may think are outside the United States are actually on American soil.


more....

Eavesdropping on communications between two people who are both inside the United States is prohibited under Mr. Bush's order allowing some domestic surveillance.

But in at least one instance, someone using an international cellphone was thought to be outside the United States when in fact both people in the conversation were in the country. Officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the program remains classified, would not discuss the number of accidental intercepts, but the total is thought to represent a very small fraction of the total number of wiretaps that Mr. Bush has authorized without getting warrants. In all, officials say the program has been used to eavesdrop on as many as 500 people at any one time, with the total number of people reaching perhaps into the thousands in the last three years.



  • Times gets Bush again: NSA officials say domestic calls were tapped, too-Raw Story


  • I am sure they will have more later..

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    stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 03:47 AM
    Response to Reply #16
    17. Spygate anyone.
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    chat_noir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 03:47 AM
    Response to Reply #16
    18. Spying Program Snared U.S. Calls
    A surveillance program approved by President Bush to conduct eavesdropping without warrants has captured what are purely domestic communications in some cases, despite a requirement by the White House that one end of the intercepted conversations take place on foreign soil, officials say.

    The officials say the National Security Agency's interception of a small number of communications between people within the United States was apparently accidental, and was caused by technical glitches at the National Security Agency in determining whether a communication was in fact "international."

    Telecommunications experts say the issue points up troubling logistical questions about the program. At a time when communications networks are increasingly globalized, it is sometimes difficult even for the N.S.A. to determine whether someone is inside or outside the United States when making a cellphone call or sending an e-mail message. As a result, people that the security agency may think are outside the United States are actually on American soil.

    ...

    But in at least one instance, someone using an international cellphone was thought to be outside the United States when in fact both people in the conversation were in the country. Officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the program remains classified, would not discuss the number of accidental intercepts, but the total is thought to represent a very small fraction of the total number of wiretaps that Mr. Bush has authorized without getting warrants. In all, officials say the program has been used to eavesdrop on as many as 500 people at any one time, with the total number of people reaching perhaps into the thousands in the last three years.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/21/politics/21nsa.html?hp&ex=1135141200&en=c385132b746e1109&ei=5094&partner=homepage
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    Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 03:47 AM
    Response to Reply #16
    19. Accidental, My Foot!
    The Accident-Prone, Accidental President is going to learn what happens when people purposely are out to get him.
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    goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 03:47 AM
    Response to Reply #16
    20. Apparently the WH sees themselves above ALL laws & commit all crimes
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    ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 03:15 PM
    Response to Reply #16
    32. Nothing is "accidental" with the NSA.......
    they know exactly what they're doing. That they were doing it in the first place without warrants is illegal, intercepting domestic calls is doubly so. There is no "fudge factor" here, it's ALL illegal and the guilty must be imprisoned. Period. End of fucking story.
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    regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 05:05 AM
    Response to Original message
    21. Why should ANYONE believe...
    ...that this program only targeted overseas contacts...or, for that matter, merely "several thousand" people?

    :grr:

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    donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 05:15 AM
    Response to Reply #21
    22. If this White House has anything to do with it I don't believe it.
    They have a track record that leave us with NO trust.
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    Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 06:11 AM
    Response to Original message
    24. They've only ADMITTED to 36 incidents of tapping calls without....
    ...proper authorization. Looks like yet another major lie by the NeoCons:

    In all, officials say the program has been used to eavesdrop on as many as 500 people at any one time, with the total number of people reaching perhaps into the thousands in the last three years.

    Thousands...not thirty-six as originally stated.
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    xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 06:30 AM
    Response to Original message
    25. well, duh! and it's about as accidental
    as the lies made up to go to war in iraq.
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    sabra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 11:23 AM
    Response to Reply #25
    27. "nobody thought the levees would break"
    hmm....
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    snooper2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 11:37 AM
    Response to Original message
    28. It should never be an "accident"
    Because if they are truly looking for just international, the originating phone number would be dialing a number with a country code, and for an international call coming to the US, you would see the full TN with the country code in the CDR, (call detail record)...

    Unless, they are using SIP and OSAMA ported a U.S> number to be his TN, and plugged his phone into an Internet jack in the mountains of Afghanistan. But even then, the long distance carrier who I imagine they would want to do the intercept should be able to tell if the call originated Internationally by looking at the inbound trunk group the call was routed to.

    So, if they have the right rules in place, and someone knowing what they are doing, it shouldn't happen.
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    bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 12:04 PM
    Response to Original message
    29. For those readers that would like some background on this growing scandal
    here is a link to Cryptome's 12-19-2005 article on a report that is very long and very educational to grasp some of the issues involved in domestic surveillance.

    "Signals inelligence and human rights: the ECHELON report" Prepared by Duncan Campbell for the Electronic Privacy Information Center 6-9-2000

    http://cryptome.org/sigint-hr-dc.htm
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    ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 03:01 PM
    Response to Original message
    30. B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T
    Nothing can be believed coming from the mouths of anyone in the bush administration. Nothing. They have proved time and again that they will lie, cheat and steal to get what they want. This is without a doubt the most dishonest administration ever, and that's saying something after Nixon's and Reagan's actions. Now they want us to believe that there were "a few" honest :eyes: mistakes made and that there's nothing to worry about? That they would never abuse the power of the presidency? Like I said, B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T!

    Can we PLEASE start impeachment proceedings now? Are there enough honest Republicans in Congress that can see what these bunch of hoodlums are doing to our country? Honest, and Republican. There's two words that certainly don't belong in the same sentence. Probably not, there probably AREN'T enough honest Republicans in Congress. What a shame that these inhuman cretins put party loyalty before the good of the country.

    How any THINKING American could ever vote for a Republican again after this administration's illegal, immoral and unethical actions is beyond me. If this is what the average American wants, it's time for me to find a new country. This one has had it.
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    lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 10:49 PM
    Response to Original message
    34. Did you hear me say fuck you bushitler?
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    Adaan Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 03:56 AM
    Response to Reply #34
    35. Two is illegal but one is not?
    Where's the logic here? If they spied on a call between Joe and Bob in LA, that's clearly illegal. Are they truly arguing that if Joe calls his cousin in Canada he waives his constitutional rights by that? Is there a secret clause in the constitution that says "limitations apply if you have friends abroad"?

    Secondly.. If you use your cellphone, the NSA needs about 5 seconds to pinpoint your location within a hundred yards or so by triangulating the signals between the phone and the provider's base stations. There's actually a service in some places where the provider sends you a text, telling you which access point you're connected to (these have just a few miles of range). The whole "well... he could have been calling from the US, but we figured it was Zaire" sounds a bit lame. This isn't a sunday hobby club, this is the NSA. They can know what brand of tampons you use if they want to, and they failed to figure out a caller was on US territory? Suuuuure boys.
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    dwightspencer Donating Member (46 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 07:29 AM
    Response to Reply #35
    36. Bush Administration Opened Pandora's Box
    This is what is finally allowing the mainstream press to continue the tough scrutiny. This is as good as the way Jon Stewart's honest indictment of Crossfire chipped away at that program and had some impact in getting that political theater pulled from the cable news. Journalists are no longer afraid of losing access because they are all talking about it. Soon, the pundits will turn. We saw Jack Cafferty develop a soul after Katrina. Nightline kept the focus on domestic spying last night. We can only hope the legal advisors keep making it as easy to build a case against this president and this White House.
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    lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 09:10 AM
    Response to Reply #36
    38. Welcome dwightspencer!
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    lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 09:09 AM
    Response to Reply #35
    37. Welcome to DU Adaan! Your first post! Excellent!
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    Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 09:38 AM
    Response to Original message
    40. "500 people at any one time" Well, hell, that could amount to millions.
    This country has lost its collective mind. We have fallen into a police state. Sick!!!
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    dennis4868 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 10:08 AM
    Response to Original message
    42. despite a requirement by the White House that one end of the intercepted..
    how does the Times know that this was a WH requirement? Just because the WH says so? hahahaha!
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    silvermachine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 10:17 AM
    Response to Original message
    43. A direct contradiction...
    ...to what Bush claimed earlier this week claiming this only occurred with international calls. The torrent of lies never stops.
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    bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 11:53 AM
    Response to Original message
    44. kick
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