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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 09:33 AM
Original message
Study Documents Menopause in Gorillas
Dec 20, 9:52 PM ET

CHICAGO - Jenny, Shamba, Timbo, Beta and Elaine are zoo gorillas, but they have something in common with millions of women: They have undergone menopause.

A study of gorillas at 17 North American zoos, led by Chicago's Brookfield Zoo, is the first to document gorilla menopause, according to researchers who were not involved in the study.

The findings may help zoos improve how they care for aging female gorillas and change the way evolutionary biologists think about menopause in humans.

The study also may provoke a few chuckles along the way.

"Do they have hot flashes? Do they get grouchy? We haven't been able to measure those things yet, but give us time," said study co-author Sue Margolis, a former Brookfield Zoo researcher and now curator of primates at Chicago's Lincoln Park Zoo.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051221/ap_on_sc/gorilla_menopause;_ylt=Arga7ryTIY9iHWOBkrZ7dg2s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3b2NibDltBHNlYwM3MTY-


I don't think I'd want to be anywhere near a female gorilla going through menopause? Yikes.

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ms liberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
1. So, Sue thinks hot flashes are funny?
maybe she should try HAVING them for a while and see how she likes it - then she might learn a little bit about being GROUCHY!!!

**above post unneccessarily bitchy due to lack of sleep from hot flashes**

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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
2. So that evolution stuff was wrong?
I wonder if the female gorillas once they hit the change take more
of interest in flower gardens and redecorating their gorilla homes.?

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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. no, they hire me to do it for them.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #3
17. LOL I think you have hit upon a great new wildlife show premise!
Fab Five got nada on your genius! :rofl:
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1monster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #2
14. I think a more likely explanation for menopause is to allow about twenty
years of nonfertility for the mother to raise her last child. Or in gorillas, less time since gorillas mature more quickly than humans, and don't live as long.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. and to ensure diversity
Older eggs are more likely to pass on defects, so it makes biological sense to 'pass the torch' to the younger females and assume a caretaker rather than procreator role in later years..

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shrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #2
15. Hey, I've been gardening and decorating for years
And I haven't hit menopause yet. Mid '40s and it all works down there, like clockwork. Sometimes I wish it wouldn't.
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
4. As my g/f says, Those are not hot flashes
those are POWER SURGES!
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Radio_Lady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
21. Izzat that's why my electric bills have ZOOMED in recent months?
Here I thought it was loss of hormones!
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
5. That's interesting for us zoology types...post-reproductive survival
is uncommon in the animals in nature. Indeed the extended duration of human survival post-reproductivity is quite remarkable.

Producing offspring is typically seen as the sine qua non of fitness, regardless of the species following an "r" or a "k" life history patterns.

So what's adaptive about surviving if you can't reproduce? Several biologists suggested more than a decade ago that the possible adaptive value of post-reproductive survival could be surrogate parenting.

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theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Very interesting thought
Sounds plausible to me, especially for some mammals (such as man and some higher primates) whose young are especially slow to mature. The chances of losing the maternal parent before adulthood are much greater for them. I could also see a benefit to long-lived mammals who live in matriarchal groups, such as elephants, but more from the perspective of passing along generations of gained knowledge (rather than surriogate parenting) to other mothers and young.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. That seems to be the conclusion earlier research came to
The results suggest that "there's no evolutionary benefit to menopause -- it's simply that there's no cost," said Packer. That is, as an individual ages, the reproductive system is the first to go, but that's okay at the point when the individual won't live long enough raise an additional baby, he said. "Since humans have a more prolonged period of infant dependency than other species, we'd expect menopause to occur earlier in life."

The theory predicts that reproductive decline will begin once the mother's life expectancy drops below the time required to raise additional offspring. For example, if women in pre-technological societies could expect to live 50 years, and if a child, in order to survive, needed its mother until the age of 10, then reproductive decline could begin at age 40. Packer's data illustrates this concept in baboons and lions. Female baboons don't live past age 26 or 27, and their infants require at least two years of maternal care. Baboon reproductive rates decline around age 21, which allows ample time for the youngest infant to reach independence.

Packer said that he found no evidence that menopause frees older females to help younger females raise offspring. Such behavior should result in higher survival of individuals whose grandmothers are still alive but no longer reproductive. Although grandmother lions and baboons both engage in what's called kin-directed behavior, they had no measurable impact on the survival or reproduction of their grandchildren or adult daughters.

http://www.aphroditewomenshealth.com/news/20030123214209_health_news.shtml
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JudyM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Similar to adaptive value of having gays in the family- additional support
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. Noninstinctive behavior in general.
So much of what primates do is learned as opposed to instinctive. Food gathering techniques, tool making, where the fruiting trees are, perhaps most importantly intra-group behavior(which would emcompass surrogate parenting).
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Samurai_Writer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. That would explain all the older couples that are adopting
You said:

"Several biologists suggested more than a decade ago that the possible adaptive value of post-reproductive survival could be surrogate parenting."

There has been a huge surge in older couples adopting, especially from other countries that do not have an age restriction (most american agencies restrict adopters ages to 40 years at first adoption, especially if the child is an infant). Many over 40s go to China to adopt, because the Chinese actually encourage adoption by older adopters.

Just thought that was interesting. Wonder if these post-menopausal gorillas do any surrogate parenting in their group?
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shrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. I've seen plenty of surrogate parenting in animals
Including a male dog who looked after a batch of kittens -- couldn't feed them, obviously, but kept them warm at night, clean, supervised them during the day so they wouldn't get hurt.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #5
18. Havocdad, wildlife degrees, on why hot flashes are important:
In the olden days, the clan lived communally and winters were long. Elder women with hot flashes could be a source of radiant heat for all. The fact that not many lived to ripe old age would make them more valuable for the heat they produced and the wisdom/knowledge they had from their long years. Thus, they were the original Hot Babes, beloved by their kin! LOL

But seriously, as his mutterings always contain a germ of insight, the wisdom/knowledge thing would be an evolutionary benefit for a species which managed some survival beyond reproductive years. Assistance with child rearing by such wise and experienced members of a society would have a two fold benefit: Young survive and learn better with good teachers and adults in their primes would have more time/energies freed up by the options of 'baby sitters' to spend in pursuit of food which improves the economy of the society.

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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
6. This just proves
you can get a grant for anything.

Now they can have uninhibited sex and daddy gorilla doesn't have to wear a condom any more.

Gimme a break!
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. Science.
Science should not require immediate pay off. Knowledge for it's own sake is reason enough and anything that gives us insights about our species is worthy in itself.
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
9. evolutionary biology
is one of my favorite subjects. this jerk that is quoted as "not involved in the study" says "It's going to make evolutionary biologists think long and hard about what this suggests for humans," Austad said. "Right now, they're saying humans are unique"
that is crap. they are NOT saying that at all. they are saying that we have much in common with our ape cousins and should study them for clues to who we are. maybe this guy went to school in kansas. he is in texas, anyway. idiots.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
23. There's that "they" again.. I agree..the guy did some time in Kansas
For as long as I can remember, the CLOSE connection to primates has been emphasized, and only reinforced over time.:)
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Betsy Ross Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
19. I tried to come up with a witty response.
But I think the true humour is that they will study female gorillas to learn about menopause when the some much of the established medical/scientific world still doesn't accept reports of human females regarding the effects of hormonal changes. How long did it take to get PMS recognized as a reality? Symptoms widely experienced by women continue to be treated as hysteria. Yes, medical research and care is getting better for women, but it sure as hell ain't where it aught to be.

Ok, just call me menopausily cranky.
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Betsy Ross Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
20. I tried to come up with a witty response.
But I think the true humour is that they will study female gorillas to learn about menopause when the some much of the established medical/scientific world still doesn't accept reports of human females regarding the effects of hormonal changes. How long did it take to get PMS recognized as a reality? Symptoms widely experienced by women continue to be treated as hysteria. Yes, medical research and care is getting better for women, but it sure as hell ain't where it aught to be.

Ok, just call me menopausily cranky.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. There's an excellent documentary running on Link TV recently
I have caught bits & pieces of it.. It's all about the cavalier attitude towards hysterectomy and how scientists are finding out more and more about the systemic effects of the surgery. I'll google & see if I can find the name..
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Also, the attitude towards mischarges
I guarantee that if men had miscarriages we would know a lot more about why they happen and how to prevent them. Over 50% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage and we know almost nothing about why. I guess their god isn't so perfect after all?

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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-21-05 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
26. What about male menopause?
Hot flashes hurt!
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