Gift rift: Evangelicals split over plan to ban presents

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/12/24/MNGBOGD4GD1.DTL

Joe Garofoli, Chronicle Staff Writer
Saturday, December 24, 2005

Conservative religious leaders are so pleased with their campaign against the "war on Christmas" that they're going to rev it up next year.

Look for more lawyers ready to pounce on Christmas disses, they say, more teachers ready to tattle on silencings of "Silent Night" and more boycotts of stores for yanking the "Christmas" out of the season.

But one influential group of evangelicals has something else in mind that is causing a division in the religious ranks:

It wants to ban presents.

The American Family Association is suggesting that adults buy nothing from stores for each other next year. Sliding an Xbox 360 to a child would be OK, said association president Tim Wildmon, but adults should funnel their consumer cash to a charity that helps the poor -- preferably one friendly to "Christian values" such as the Salvation Army.

... Jan LaRue, legal counsel with Concerned Women for America, another major conservative player in the Christmas campaign, said that while the idea of contributing to the needy was noble, "I don't know if it has to be linked to punishing retailers. A lot of believers, Christians and Jews, own small businesses that would be punished by the loss of income during the Christmas season."

more

:shrug:

I don't think too much of it is getting to their brains. :rofl:

my thoughts exactly

I think the "no presents" proposal will go over like a lead balloon. Everyone likes a little gift at Xmas...if anything, it might make people think about heading to a church that puts a bit more joy in the holiday season!

n/t

:popcorn:

On one hand, I agree that the commercialism isn't what the holiday is all about - whether you're religious or an atheist (I fall in the latter category).

But a campaign to keep adults from buying gifts? :rofl: Oh, what a wonderful way to help destroy the already shaky economy.

:popcorn:

the charities will spend it too, propping up demand

and if the charity is any good, it will also salvage human lives that would otherwise be wasted. This is good for the economy as well.

Having relocated several times in the last 5 years, it became clear that as a family we have way too much stuff. One tends to accumulate stuff from the holidays. Not buying more stuff is actually a pretty good idea.

I remember a my parents having a couple of skinny Christmases when they chose to give the money they would have spent to someone who they knew who was in real need. Another good idea.

The AFA/LaRue crowd may well have a good concept here, but I certainly won't be donating to their charities with the exception of the Salvation Army.

Encouraging people who call themselves "Christian" to actually do what Jesus said about caring for the poor could be a very good thing.

the evangelicals and the corporatists. Get the popcorn!

:popcorn:

Edit: clash not class

I'm with you, this is going to be fun to watch. :popcorn:

The corporatists who own the media will give this meme no play, and it will soon vanish. The ban-the-presents zealots will get no support.

"Buy Nothing Day" from the AdBusters crew got featured prominently on Black Friday.

"Why do you hate capitalism?"
"Why do you hate Christmas?"
"Why are you taking Christ out of Christmas?"
"No, don't give that money to the poor!"

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

I wonder if they realize how much everyone else is laughing at them?

:rofl:

But in the mean time, they are going to get everyone worked up about effin nothing while they cancel SUNDAY MORNING SERVICES because it's CHRISTMAS!

A similar fight is being seen over immigration: The corporate branch of the Repukes wants to continue hiring coyotes to bring in undocumented immigrants to work in their chicken plants and meatpacking places, while the sheet-wearing sort want to build a wall at the border.

:popcorn:

What a bunch of hypocrites....
i love it when the two tools of corporatism and christianity collide.

Hell yeah, absolutely they should "define" christmas in strict terms of christianity
and maybe be more like the puritans with no celebration at all .. certainly no presents.
Maybe they should all sequester themselves in church all day for soem thoughtful prayer.

Watch this space.. they'll find some reason to wiggle out
of being better christians in order to become bigger consumers.

Money is the right wing god.
Their only god.

Seems to me that not only commercialization but the prominent place of Santa in our culture influencing young children to believe in Santa's special powers (that rival God/Jesus) would be considered a big distraction from what the evangelicals consider the true meaning of Christmas.

Santa = Satan

and then there's the red suit
and the elves (demons)
and the horned beasts who pull his sleigh (slay)
and of course all the clildren-lovin'
Santa is Satan

When will the fundies declare war on xmas????????????????????

I went to college with some who believed exactly what you just wrote. They really believed that Santa was a Satanic figure to rob the holy day of its true meaning.

and he does wear red. :evilgrin:

That the AFA has a number of charities that it wants you to give to. Help them cover those ballooning "administrative costs".

We could give each other the ultimate gift - it's called freedom. I realize it's a revolutionary concept, but I'm thinking - now follow along with me here - how about we, Christians and non, celebrate the season, (or, not) the best way we see fit? Tada!

What do you think? Have I got something?

Peace - tis the meaning of the season!

"Peace on Earth, Good Will t'ward men." And peace and freedom I wish to you!

of whether the wackos christian beliefs are stronger than their impulse to consume. My bet is that Mr. Wild-mon is going to ultimately be embarrassed when he finds out how few of his sheep follow his suggestion. Greed trumps faith every time.

:rofl:

Nice try, bungholes.

Reminds me of a famous column by the legendary Chicago journalist Mike Royko. A woman wrote to Royko once, saying she had been saving money for a long time to take a dream vacation to the Caribbean. But after watching a prominent televangelist, she was feeling guilty and thought she might donate the money to his "ministry."

Royko told her to go to the Caribbean, since "that's probably what the televangelist will do with your money."

or otherwise not concerned with jesus.

No tree, no lights, no santa - just a christ child in a manger

see how popular they are after that!

They just might consider it.

The last time Christians tried that in these parts, the Puritans outlawed Christmas altogether.
Nearly everything about Christmas is pagan in origin, including the date.

Last year I saw a program on one of the fundie channels where the host was telling his sheep not to observe Christmas because of its pagan origins.

Everyone is all up in a wad about the ORIGIN of Christmas, or Winter Solstice or whatever. If you're not using it as a Pagan ritual, then it's NOT a pagan ritual.

The ritual is about the intent, not the activity itself.

Do what the hell you want to for Christmas, and leave the govt. out of it. MYOB fundies!

Divorce them from reality, just as you are divorced from reality - except make them MORE resentful, MORE socially damaged, MORE insufferably whiny than your damn selves.

I actually do something similar to what is suggested. Now my husband and I don't celebrate Christmas, so there's no problem with a gift exchange there. But my family is Christian, and this year I donated in my mother and brother's name to a non-profit foundation (not church affiliated, btw). They were really pleased, as they were tired of trying to find places for Christmas junk they get.

My cousin sent it to me. And the thing that made me the angriest is this statement, which I'm quoting from the email:

"If they miss us shopping next Christmas, maybe they will respect us more."

In other words, they couldn't care less about the poor or the charities to which they are suggesting Christians donate. They are strictly doing this to try to punish retailers for not "respecting" them. But they know a boycott of Christmas would not go over well, so they're sugar-coating it with the "give to charity" angle.

It makes me sick how self-centered they are. They are doing this for nothing better than an insatiable hunger for power and control. They would use legitimate charities and religious ministries as a tool to strike back against those they feel are not "respectful" enough.

If people want to give to charities instead of buy Christmas presents, I'm all for it. But the root motivation behind this program is utterly contrary to everything the birth of Jesus stands for.

(Sorry..."preaching" to the choir, here, I know, but I just had to vent a little bit. This sort of nonsense from the AFA is an insult to my faith and to the tradition of Christian charity. It made me mad.)

Or something like that. These "christians" have humongous egos.
What's going to be interesting is to see how this affects the "christian" businesses.
Are they going to shut down completely over the holidays?
Will they lose their shirts?

When the rest of us can see that society has been quite accomodating of their loony agenda, and many retailers and media outlets have folded under pressure to do as AFA wants them to, they are still frothing at the mouth because some of us hold different beliefs. It is amusing, but getting less amusing all the time. These people would be happy to get rid of us, even if the process got a little messy. :yoiks:

party, who advocate a spend 'til you drop mentality. I see a big schism coming up very soon.

Thats all they are. They are like Hitlers SA. But what they don't get is that Bush and the Neo-Cons don't support their crazy agenda. I wonder if there'll be a "Knight of the long knives" here.

IF these groups still want to consider Catholics as Christians. First of all, the concept of giving gifts is meant to commemorate the Wise Men bringing gifts to the Christ Child. Part of it comes from this.

The idea of Santa Claus bringing presents comes from the Catholic Ditch SAINT Nicholas who lived in the 4th Century. He gave out gifts to the poor children in his town. His feast day is December 6th and is known as Little Christmas in the Netherlands. This is the day presents are given out there.

You know, I am REALLY getting sick and tired of all this stuff. Perhaps if these Evangelicals/Fundies knew the HISTORY of the Christianity perhaps they wouldn't be so damned quick to label all these traditions as SATANIC to be eliminated. Least they FORGET, the Catholic Church was around LONG before any of THEM were.

And expressions of goodwill.

"Beginning of December 17 of each year, during the festival known as the Saturnalia, the Golden Age was restored for seven days. All business stopped and executions and military operations were postponed. It was a period of goodwill, devoted to banquets and the exchange of visits and gifts. A special feature of the festival was the freedom given to slaves, who during this time had first place at the family table and were served by their masters."

From my 1986 Funk and Wagnalls, Volume 23.

This article doesn't mention it, but Romans (and others) brought in evergreen trees or branches thereof for their midwinter festivals. They were a sign that green life continued even in winter.

Christmas is cobbled together from dozens of traditions, and Christianity as such (i.e. churchgoing) plays a relatively minor role.

the greedy corporate whores vs. the evangelicals-I hope they go for it! I love giving gifts myself, but I've been downsizing Christmas over the past few years. Our family gives practical gifts; my dad gave me money to repair a hurricane damaged fence in my backyard, and my mom gave me grocery gift cards. These days, even the basics are starting to feel like luxuries!

I'd love to see that fight!! My daughter, a single mom in senior year of college, needed her first business suit this fall for presentations in class and later interviews. I bought her the suit long before Christmas and gave her small gifts in her stocking. This also spared her from feeling that she had to buy a Christmas gift for me that she really couldn't afford. We also try to buy from local mom & pop shops as much as possible--I haven't been in a wal-mart or mall for years.

They are in their 20s and live with me. One is in college and the other cannot afford to move out on her own.

One daughter got a pair of shoes and sheep skin slippers. The other got a down comforter and flannel sheets.

All these gifts cost a lot less than raising the thermostat. My girls also REQUESTED these gifts.

I agree with the AFA. Giving to charities is much more Christian. I also agree giving children gifts is a good idea too.

to donate money to charity instead of giving gifts to adults. i'm kind of surprised that the AFA--corporate christians to the core--would advocate such a potentially altruistic approach, but then again I'm sure that many of their own sub-organizations will be on the list of the approved charities.

who aren't holding worship on Christmas morning, even though it falls on a Sunday?

:wtf:

that is what they should have been doing all along. I haven't been able to figure out why they didn't go after the materialism of Christmas all along. I'm anxious to see how this works out 'put your money where you big mouth is' and make a real sacrifice if you're a true Christian. :thumbsup:

not because some guy who thinks he is a preacher tells you to do it. To achieve the greatest reward, one must give charity graciously without expecting reward. Or at least that is what Buddhism teaches.

Happy Holidays! (And yes, I have a "christmas" tree- with real candles, while I will light this evening...may as well respect real traditions.)

Every time they bake, the loaf is full of concern.

;-)

Because I'm sick and tired of Christmas shopping. Every year it puts us all under emotional and financial stress, trying to get just the right trinkets for friends and family and business associates. I was caught in the rush a few nights ago, and after having dropped a lot of cash, I thought: "This is what christmas is all about? Consumerism?"

Let's go back to the days when Christmas was about getting together with family, sharing a nice meal, caroling, and wishing each other goodwill. And, okay, maybe a little stocking with goodies for the kids.

We'd all be a little happier, more relaxed, and not in debt.

I knitted all but two gifts...ordered some yarn on the internet, actually spun up the rest...found one at yard sale and still need to find the last*...the whole thing cost under $50 and everyone will be pleased with hand-made gifts...

*need to find a boulder for Hubby's Zen rock garden, or rather the boulder must find me...

I too knitted most of my gifts this year. I ordered yarn from KnitPicks (great stuff and wonderful prices!) plus I supported my Local Yarn Store too. I had fun doing it, and the recipients were delighted with socks, hats, scarves, gloves and even one pullover.

Wonder if the fundies know how to knit? Nah. All the people who go to my LYS are liberals, including the owners.

I knitted socks, a scarf, and several felted "ditty" bags. I still have several projects to complete, but one was a special request for which I have to find the right yarn.

Do fundies knit? Probably not, that requires an artistic bent and some sense of taste, which most of them seem to totally lack (just think about the dreadful stuff that passes for music at their churches-ugh).

KnitPicks is great. We have only one yarn store in the county, which carries just a small selection of esoteric yarns. Otherwise there is MallWart, which I refuse to enter except in dire need. I support local sheep and buy roving locally. I have even met the sheep and llamas at the farm.

I know many really conservative knitters, but you're right: most I know are more on the liberal side. I stopped shopping at one LYS because of how nasty the owner was (racist, elitist, and just plain greedy when it came to how she treated employees and customers).

I like KnitPicks, but I don't like how she didn't even look in the US for American-made yarns and American mills. I wish she had, as there are some wonderful American mills who might have been able to deal with her.

Some of us are just born non-knitters, I'm sorry to say. But it was fun while I was doing it.

I teach knitting, and I freely admit that it's not for everyone. Everyone has a medium or two, and yarn isn't everyone's perfect medium. Maybe you'd do better with crochet. There are many lovely new patterns out for crochet that use the pretty yarns. It's definitely a re-energized craft.

I got some on sale at Tuesday Morning, and the rest I either already had or got specifically for the project at my fave somewhat local shop (40 min. drive to Threadbear Fiber Arts--aka Yarn Heaven).

I was going to spin up some for a baby gift for my BIL and SIL with their wee one coming in February but never had the time. *sigh* I need to get spinning again for sanity's sake.

Did you find that you were longing to knit something for yourself while working on all of that? I sure did after about five presents. I have all these projects on the needles for me that I keep putting off, and I'm refusing to keep doing that for the next three months. Of course, I have class projects to knit, but those don't count, right? ;)

It saves me a lot of stress...all I have to remember is to get the cards to put the money in.

It is a popular gift, too--people can use it to get what they want, or pay a bill, buy food, or do whatever.

I haven't done that shopping thing in ten or more years...and I only spend what I can afford.

Taking time to really think about what that person 'needs'....perhaps it's a chat, more attention, or ???

Isn't that what our Christ did? He found out what people wanted/needed first...he listened....and then he delivered.

We just want to give some junk and then feel that our obligation is 'done' (not at all Christlike).

First we must 'listen' and then should we give accordingly to what we've heard.

isn't easy or easily reversed. The good hearted Christians didn't mean to provoke controversy by proposing a virtuous practice. If they had read "War and Peace" by Tolstoy they might have remembered the naive Pierre Bezuhov being courted into prominence by the upwardly mobile secret Masonic society. Taking their principles too much to heart he was thrown down from leadership and out for proposing real action and charity to the poor. HE learned they would spend a lot on useless ceremonies and parties in a busy social life but never give a ruble to the collection basket for the poor.

Will the AFA learn that bitter lesson? Or will they first apologize and search their own souls as Bezuhov was first tricked into doing, naive and vulnerable genuine Christians not ready to see the hypocrisy of their peers. Trying to turn the war on Xmas to a war on Mammon can only punish the servants and slaves of the latter. How terrible. LBJ's War on Poverty was more Christian and did more actual good than even the sincere tokenism just batted down in kneejerk fashion by Mammonite xians.

Do you think *asshat "If you love America, go shopping" Chimperor will go along with this?

:rofl:

...even more of a pain in the ass next year? How delightful.

is that these people have absolutely no clue about Christmas's historical celebration (or lack thereof, in many circles), its roots in Pagan tradition, and the massive role that America, exclusively blessed by Providence, had in the so-called "commercialization of Christmas."

The info about the roots of Christmas are spreading all over the place. I reckon there may be some Christians who are uncomfortable with what they're finding out.

charity ?

that's pretty much what they are saying.

and the stuff about not wanting to hurt retailers is just crap. as this person said, they can still buy gifts for kids. and they can still spend money on gifts for charities. help the poor and other needy.

this is really showing how serious they are about this whole thing and pointing out the ones who just want to do feel good things without sacraficing anything.

With all the other shit going on they're worried about Xmas???? I wish someome would do away with Xmas entirely.

Anybody here old enough to remember during the civil rights era of the sixties when conservatives use to rag on liberals for making out like we were morally superior to them and were telling them they had to believe as we did or they weren't as worthy as we were?

My, my, how things have changed.

BTW, I can't wait for one of these jerks to bring up "political correctness" again.

They've cornered the market on that.

Um, guess these guys don't realize that Dems have been trying for a while now to get people to hit the corporate bastards where it hurts....Bwahaha! :rofl:


Walmart won't like this idea NO WAY NO HOW. But I like it VERY VERY MUCH!

:woohoo:

Yeah, that will go over well with republicans.

A lot of believers, Christians and Jews, own small businesses that would be punished by the loss of income during the Christmas season."

never mind those people who don't have a place to live or food to eat. this person is NOT a christian. at least not according to this book i read once called the BIBLE.

First, I don't go into excrutiating debt that I have to spend the rest of the year digging myself out of just to "Save the Retailers" at Yule.

And secondly, I NEVER shop at anyplace that tries to trade on their "christianity" with their fish decal on the door or yellow book ad.

This will go over REAL well with corporate America. So far the corps and the politico's have put up with these nimrods as a means to a goal: to get repukes in to give them giant tax breaks.

Now that the fundies want to cut into the profits, watch how quickly, these nuts are pushed to the back of the room.

Nothing like good coming attractions for next years must see TV.

:popcorn:

The AFA IMHO is a bunch of misdirected fools -- not a willing pawn of the corporate elite. In fact, one of their biggest movements was against Cap Cities/ABC.

I think the Republicans have brainwashed them into supporting them, as the AFA types feel that Democrats are morally bankrupt.

That being said, I've personally worked with Tim Wildmon (Donald's son and the day to day manager of the AFA) on numerous projects regarding child abuse, medical care for the poor and elderly, etc. I believe his intentions are usually good, but he can't deal with the ongoing changes in society. They as a group are IMHO badly misguided -- and calling them names accomplishes little except eliciting a defensive posture from them. It took 50 years or more for individual (not institutional) racism to be seen for what it is -- a shameful period of our history, with portions still in the present.

that means banning $$$gifts$$$ to them too.:sarcasm:

"ban" things.

Why do you need to "ban" anything to be socially responsible. Giving gifts out of love and affection to people close to you... my god, only the radical religious nutright could turn that into something needing to be banned.

Isn't it sad that it never occurs to these people that they can do both - it never occurs to them that there might be a healthy relational balance between expressing ones love and care for friends and family and volunteering time, money and services to help those who might be less fortunate during the season? As one who has been on the "less fortunate" side of things, I certainly would never want a "ban" on gift giving for the sake of charity...it almost turns "compassionate" giving into something ugly.