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kskiska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 05:45 PM
Original message
WP: Raiding the Icebox (Plan to invade Canada)
Behind Its Warm Front, the United States Made Cold Calculations to Subdue Canada

Invading Canada won't be like invading Iraq: When we invade Canada, nobody will be able to grumble that we didn't have a plan.

The United States government does have a plan to invade Canada. It's a 94-page document called "Joint Army and Navy Basic War Plan -- Red," with the word SECRET stamped on the cover. It's a bold plan, a bodacious plan, a step-by-step plan to invade, seize and annex our neighbor to the north. It goes like this:

First, we send a joint Army-Navy overseas force to capture the port city of Halifax, cutting the Canadians off from their British allies.

Then we seize Canadian power plants near Niagara Falls, so they freeze in the dark.

Then the U.S. Army invades on three fronts -- marching from Vermont to take Montreal and Quebec, charging out of North Dakota to grab the railroad center at Winnipeg, and storming out of the Midwest to capture the strategic nickel mines of Ontario.

more…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/29/AR2005122901412_pf.html
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
1. er, how old is this plan?
Edited on Fri Dec-30-05 05:47 PM by pitohui
seems i've been hearing abt the big plan to invade canada for at least 30 years

ha, just clicked the link, no wonder, the plan was written in the 30s and cleared for public amusement in the 70s

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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
42. 1930s, and Canada had an equivalent in the same timeframe
This is really old news. Been known for several years.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
2. eh...
I'm certain that somewhere in a Pentagon file cabinet are strategic invasion plans for every country--I guess the hawks always try to imagine every contingency, and never know who we'll make an enemy of next
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-10-06 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
60. Well, that's just what plans and policies types do for a living
Every so often, you have to grab one and update it, if it is your area of responsibility. It is sensible to prepare for contingincies, because the world can and does change over time. That said, I find it disturbing that those crazyass hawks actually dust off those plans and try to find a way to make them fit a scenario, just for shits, giggles and natural resources. Those bastards forget that after WW2, we changed the name of the outfit from the WAR DEPARTMENT to Department of DEFENSE.
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TheDebbieDee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
3. I didn't read the article, but perhaps this scenario
was created years ago, when the Soviet Union was still another big kid on the block.

At one time or another, the US Military has had a plan to overtake or to defend from being overtaken, every country on the planet....it's called "Readiness".
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
19. Going North, Heading South
The article is worth reading in its entirety. Here are some of its morsels:

Going North, Heading South

In 1866, about 800 Irish Americans in the Fenian Brotherhood decided to strike a blow for Irish independence by invading Canada. They crossed the Niagara River into Ontario, where they defeated a Canadian militia. But when British troops approached, the Fenians fled back to the United States, where many were arrested.

After that, Americans stopped invading Canada and took up other hobbies, such as invading Mexico, Haiti, Nicaragua, Grenada and, of course, Iraq.

But the dream of invading Canada lives on in the American psyche, occasionally manifesting itself in bizarre ways. Movies, for instance.

In the 1995 movie "Canadian Bacon," the U.S. president, played by Alan Alda, decides to jump-start the economy by picking a fight with Canada. His battle cry: "Surrender pronto or we'll level Toronto."

In the 1999 movie "South Park: Bigger, Longer & Uncut," Americans, angered that their kids have been corrupted by a pair of foulmouthed, flatulent Canadian comedians, go to war. Canada responds by sending its air force to bomb the Hollywood home of the Baldwin brothers -- a far more popular defensive strategy than anything Buster Brown devised. Moviegoers left theaters humming the film's theme:

Blame Canada! Blame Canada!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/29/AR2005122901412_pf.html
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kevinbgoode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
4. Er....good luck.
Since it appears that there are only about a few dozen young Republicans willing to join the service, we'll have to depend on REAL sheep to launch this invasion. And Canadians used to regularly kick our butts during NATO war exercises years ago. . .they'll just ask their new main trading partners, the Chinese, to lend a helping hand.

In the end, noting the incompetency of America's neo-con/Taliban coalition, we'll end up losing New York State, Michigan and Washington State. . .and we'll leave North Dakota in ruins just like the Repukes have left the Gulf Coast.
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Hey, would this help us get refugee status in Canada?
And I'd prefer BC, anyway, which apparently won't be targeted for attack, so won't be messed up.

;-)
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. New York will go to Canada? Will I get healthcare?
Now I'm torn.
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hopeisaplace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #8
35. rotlmao!
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BillZBubb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
6. We wouldn't invade--we would liberate them!
We would replace their parliamentary system with real democracy! American style!!!!!! They could elect any government that they and Diebold deem fit. Chalibi needs a job.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
7. Great. They could then stop Canada from inventing important things
Edited on Fri Dec-30-05 06:04 PM by applegrove
like optical wire and the like.

Have they heard about the Rideau canal. How are they planning on taking on 10,000 skaters? I'd love to see that!

Did David Frum dig up this story? He is always trying to stir fear during our recent elections to get the liberals to vote NDP.

Yawn.

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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. The only way into downtown Ottawa this season is five miles of this:
What branch of the US army is going to take on this?



Five miles of it!


Plus we have BEARS!



http://www.islandnet.com/~see/weather/almanac/arc2005/alm05jan.htm
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txindy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #17
58. I was going to say we'd send in the 101st Fighting Figure Skaters
But those bears are just too terrifying. Run away, run away! :yoiks:

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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-10-06 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #17
59. not bears
Those are Icehogs.
:D
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-10-06 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #17
61. What scares me
is that I live in a city named Ottawa,not the one in Canada, and the gang that can't invade straight might get confused. I've never been to an invasion. Won't know how to behave.
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ClusterFreak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
9. The Yankees are coming, the Yankees are coming!!!
Well, I'll be jiggered!!

Better not mess with us, we'll shoot down your warplanes and stand on guard for our soil!! We've got medium-range muskets you know!

Take off, eh!!:bounce:
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
10. I think the oil fields of Alberta would be the big prize these days.
I would put nothing past Bush, or the U.S. media (i.e. whipping up the required war fever, no matter how absurd).
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Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #10
48. Ding! Ding! Ding!
We have a winner!
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ticapnews Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
11. And then Lancelot, Galahad and Bedevere leap out of the rabbit...
Edited on Fri Dec-30-05 06:05 PM by ticapnews
taking the Canadians completely by surprise!

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ClusterFreak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. Who leaps out??
Lancelot....Galahad....and I (Bedevere). Uh....leap out of the rabbit...
;)
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kitty1 Donating Member (772 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
12. Well I must warn our Winnipeg mayor Mr Katz....
of this diabolical plan to take over our railroad. How ingenious. They'll notice that we'll be too wasted from drinking countless Molsons and smoking up to notice the barrage of tanks rolling onto our streets.
Who's behind this extravaganza. Dr Evil? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
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crankybubba Donating Member (818 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. molsens...
good stuff, they own coors now. who is invading whom?
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
13. This is Absolute Bullshit!
Unfuckingbelievable!
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DRoseDARs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Calm down: Drawn up in 1930, updated 1934-35, declassified 1974...
...and you can have a photocopy for 15 cents.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Phew........!
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
14. Why do we need to add another 30 million liberals to our country?
Why do our elected leaders hate America so much? :evilgrin:
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
15. Ya, that worked great in 1812...
Edited on Fri Dec-30-05 06:14 PM by htuttle
...when they kicked our asses and burned the White House... :eyes:

BTW, if they ever did try something so stupid, I would bet that more than one Northern state would secede over it. We tend to have a lot more affection for Canada than Washington DC here in Cheeseheadstan.

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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
21. Teddy Roosevelt was as serious as a heart attack; likewise Hay, Lodge etc.
He hoped for "a general national buccaneering expedition to drive the Spaniards out of Cuba, the English out of Canada".
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0743261275/ref=sib_vae_pg_59/002-2956102-3096805?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=canada&p=S022&twc=2&checkSum=SOOOmI6q09QRmXbYRLUr9bq6%2FmSYEadJcmwe%2FXgoj3g%3D#reader-page

He really wanted to annex it - and Mexico.




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dutchdemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Some laughs I dug up from the past
I have tons stored here http://www.chris-floyd.com/farkcanada/

From a Fark.com contest.























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Herstal Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
24. This is pretty amusing.
I've been humming the "Blame Canada" song from South Park all day!
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
25. Without a plan to control the Breweries, this invasion is doomed
and the Great White North will eat BushCo's stinkin and corrupt shorts.
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achtung_circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
26. Funny on first read
(and second), but troll the FR threads on Canada. They seriously don't like us.

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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
27. In A Couple Years, Canada Will Be Able To Invade and Take Over Us
without firing a shot. I for one would welcome it. Still, I can't imagine what would possess them to do so.
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jazzjunkysue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #27
52. Oh, please, Oh, please, Oh, please, Oh, please, Oh, please, Oh, please,
All together, now:

"Oh, Can-a-daaaaaaaaaaa, my home and native land....."

They have great maple cookies, oh, yeah, and health care.

Where do I sign?
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wakeme2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
28. But why is Cheney's fingerprints on the cover
Canada has OIL....

Canada has people that do not pay enough for their prescriptions....

Canada has timber.

IMHO, if Dick and friends thought they could pull it off, they would...
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
29. Canada's response to bush...


(thanks to applegrove for this great toon!)
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
30. We'll have to take The Canadian National Tower first
That's where they can launch our missiles from.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109370/combined
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WindRavenX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
31. jesus, I swear the world is becoming a bad Tom Clancey novel
(oops-- "bad" and "Tom Clancey" is redundent)
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Relax....
Quote from the article:

It was drawn up and approved by the War Department in 1930, then updated in 1934 and 1935. It was declassified in 1974 and the word "SECRET" crossed out with a heavy pencil. Now it sits in a little gray box in the National Archives in College Park, available to anybody, even Canadian spies. They can photocopy it for 15 cents a page.

War Plan Red was actually designed for a war with England. In the late 1920s, American military strategists developed plans for a war with Japan (code name Orange), Germany (Black), Mexico (Green) and England (Red). The Americans imagined a conflict between the United States (Blue) and England over international trade: "The war aim of RED in a war with BLUE is conceived to be the definite elimination of BLUE as an important economic and commercial rival."

In the event of war, the American planners figured that England would use Canada (Crimson) -- then a quasi-pseudo-semi-independent British dominion -- as a launching pad for "a direct invasion of BLUE territory." That invasion might come overland, with British and Canadian troops attacking Buffalo, Detroit and Albany. Or it might come by sea, with amphibious landings on various American beaches -- including Rehoboth and Ocean City, both of which were identified by the planners as "excellent" sites for a Brit beachhead.

The planners anticipated a war "of long duration" because "the RED race" is "more or less phlegmatic" but "noted for its ability to fight to a finish." Also, the Brits could be reinforced by "colored" troops from their colonies: "Some of the colored races however come of good fighting stock, and, under white leadership, can be made into very efficient troops."


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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
32. The funniest part was the story of the US invasions of Canada
They mention all of them FAILED, but did not go into details why. Basically as long as Britain was the Strongest Country in the World any invasion of Canada was going to fail DO TO BRITISH INTERVENTION. It was NOT Canadians who denied the US Quebec in 1776 and drove the US out of Montreal in early 1777, it was the British Army and Navy. In fact the US was able to raise THREE REGIMENTS of troops out of Canada during that time period (and Nova Scotia had sent delegates to the First Continental Congress in 1774, but do to increase British Military Present in 1775 could not sent delegates to the Second in 1775, this presence permitted the British to move their Army from Boston to Halifax in early 1776 as part of the preparation to Invade New York later in 1777). As to the Three Regiments raised iN Quebec, by Yorktown these had been combined into one Regiments, but given the losses between 1777 and 1781 the US was still getting recruits out of Canada as late as 1783 (Please note these were French-Canadians).

The next invasion, during the War of 1812 had a different set of problems. Do to the American Revolution and then the Wars of the French Revolution you did not have much immigration into the New World from 1774 till about 1830 and the Great Irish Potato Famine. At the same time what is now Ontario was settled by English Speaking people. These English Speaking people where of two types, the leadership tended to be Americans from the former Middle and Southern Colonies who had supported the Crown during the Revolution. The actual laborers and small farmers tended to come from New England (Which even by British Estimates of the 1770s was over 90% for the American Revolution). Britain was generous in land grant so a lot of people moving West after 1783 moved West into Ontario. Thus Ontario in 1812 had a leadership loyal to Britain but most of her people were pro-American as opposed to pro-Britain.

Anyway, the US had been moving West and Tecumseh decided to oppose this movement and used the Great Madrid Earthquake of 1811 as a sign from the Great Spirit for the Indians to drive out the Whites from the Ohio Valley. The people in the Ohio Valley then demanded war on Britain for Britain was giving guns to Tecumseh. The excuse for the war was Britain taking American Seamen of Merchant ships, but New England OPPOSED the war (and mot seamen at that time came from New England). Anyway it was an Excuse , not the Reason. The American West wanted Tecumseh dead. The Canadian Militia during the War had a mix reputation. In taking Fort Detroit the British had them dressed with British Army uniform so the American Commander thought their were British Regulars, thought he was unnumbered and vacated Detroit. Most British Historians (who tend be the most neutral) question if the Canadian Militia would have fought at all. When the Americans did get around to invade Canada (via Detroit and Ontario) Tecumseh meet them at Thames River in Ontario (Called the Battle of Monraviantown in US Army Books) and was killed. The Americans did not even engaged the Canadian Militia who basically sat out the Battle caught in an internal conflict, do they fight for their County (the US) or their King (King George III), as with most internal conflict it prevented any usefulness by the Canadian Militia (Though one British historian I read believe having the Canadian Militia in Service was useful, it prevented them from Joining their relations in the US Army).

Another debate about the invasion did the American Army reach Toronto? The Army was a Militia Based Army with some regular US Troops attached. Once Tecumseh was dead the Militia started to break up and go home. They went to War to Kill Tecumseh, he was dead, war was over as far as they were concerned (and many apparently dropped out of the Units to visit relatives they had in Ontario). By the time the Army finally reached Toronto, all forms of Discipline had broken down. The US Militiamen want to go home NOT finish the Invasion, the Commander seeing he was already half way to Toronto decided to take it since technically it was the military objective of the Campaign (Toronto was the Tactical object, the Strategic object was to kill Tecumseh which had already been accomplished). After "Taking" Toronto, the drunken troops let it catch on fire. Efforts were made to stop the fire, but the troops were to drunk to be effective at it (and their hearts was NOT in saving Toronto but going home). The Commander realizing that he had achieved his primary objective (Killing Tecumseh) sent the Troops home (Please note there are reports of some of the Regular Troops making it home, the Militia broke up even more, stooped off to see some relatives and walked home more as individuals than as organized military units.

As you can see that invasion achieved its objective, Tecumseh was dead, the invasion was NOT in reality an invasion to take and hold Canada and it makes me laugh every time I hear Canadians talk about how their drove out the Americans in that Invasion. Did not happen, some Americans even stayed and some Canadians even moved south with their relatives in the American Militia.

The next dispute was the 1839 Aroostook War, it was resolved by Britain and the US agreeing to survey the border and accept that survey as the border. The Story goes that the American on the Expedition keep the French Canadians drunk so to move the border as far north as possible (Thus the modern Quebec-Maine Border). Given the Political Situation in Quebec at that time sounds more like an excuse of why the French Canadian decided to give the Timber in the woodlands to Americans rather then British owners.

As to the 1866 Fenian invasion, again the Canadian Militia (reformed twice since 1860 to make it more loyal to Britain) was ineffective but the British Regulars drove the Fenians out. Yes they were arrested but soon released for the majority of Americans supported the Fenians and adding Canada to the Union. One note about the two Canadian reforms of its Militia. Before the First reform the Canadian Militia was just like the US Militia, every able body male between 18 and 45 was a member. The problem was starting in 1861 a lot of Canadians went south and Join the Union Army to Fight to Save the US Union. Given the huge number going south the British decided to reform the Militia to make it more loyal to Britain (The Excuse was to make it more "Professional, but loyalty was a major concern). Both Reforms reduced the total number of men technically in the Militia (by the second reform the Canadian Militia was more a Army Reserve or US National Guard type organization as opposed to the Militia of pre-1860).

Canadian Nationalist have always had problem with the huge number of Canadians joining the Union army between 1861-1865. Please remember the American South was counting on English intervention to save the South. Britain main source of Cotton, its main form of Clothing Material at that time, was from the US South. Thus the South believe England would intervene to secure its Cotton Supplies. The problem for the south Britain was able to get around the shortage of cotton in three ways, first the South did get some cotton out, through this dropped as the war progressed. Second the North exported Captured Cotton, and this INCREASED as the war progressed and third access to Egyptian Cotton. Thus England had enough Cotton and thus no the economic reason to intervene in the US Civil Are.

While the Threat of English intervention was minimized it was a real threat throughout the American Civil War. If war did break out between Britain and the US, Canada would be in the Cross-hairs. Thus the huge number of Canadian Volunteers into the US Army frighten Britain and upset Modern Canadian Nationalists. Thus the debate between American, Canadians and British Historians, which had more Canadians, the Canadian Militia or the Union Army? If you go by the Militia of 1860, the Canadian Militia, but if you go by Militia of 1865, the Union Army had more Volunteers. Canadians Nationalist sometime attack the numbers of Canadians serving in the Union Army as to precise to be accurate given the records of the time period so you have a debate but given Five Canadians made General in the Union Army but none in the Canadian Militia of the Time period gives you an idea of the number of Canadians in both.

The chief result of the above was Britain made a strategic decision in 1867, giving Canada Dominion Status. Basically Britain was telling the US, lets share Canada, we know you can take it anytime you want. A good number of its Citizens would welcome you, but some will oppose you, so lets share, we just leave the Canadians themselves arbitrate between us. The US wanting to reduce its debt from fighting the Civil War did not want to invade Canada accepted the situation. Thus Modern Canada was born as a child of two powers, Britain and the US. Both were happy if the other did not have complete control of Canada so it remained till about 1905 (When Canada adopted the Dollar replacing the English Pound). The Canadian Dollar and US Dollar were generally the same (You did have cost to exchange one for the other but other than that the same) till Nixon ended the fixed exchange rates of the post war period by leaving the Dollar float (But that is a different Story).

Thus Canada has economically been part of the US since at least 1905 (and a very good argument can be made for 1867). Canada at the same time has been an independent State, but only as long the its independence costs the US less than taking Canada. NAFTA made the economic hold of the US over Canada even greater.

Thus since 1867 the US has had no need to invade Canada, in fact the plan outlined in the Washington Post involved a War with BRITAIN in which Canada was taken by the US as part of that war. The US will only invade Canada when an independent Canada costs the US more than Invading Canada.

Please note regarding Canada we are NOT talking about a true nation-state like Mexico. You can call Quebec more of a nation-State than Canada (Same language, same culture, Geographically united, economical united yet separate from the economies of other Nation-States, this is true even with Globalization). The Classic Nation-State is France. It is part of the European market, but still economically independent of the rest of the EU, it has the same language, and its is centered generally and politically around Paris. Germany is not as united as France, but is another Nation-State for the same reasons (Though it has two center, Government around Berlin, But economically Frankfort). Britain is same (centered around London). Italy is a more troublesome case, but still meet the requirements. China is a nation-State despite its huge size (I am talking about China Proper NOT Tibet (Xizang) and Xinjiany but including Manchuria). These are Nation-States. Does Canada meet this requirement? The US Does given its same Culture, Dominate Language (English) and central of Geography (The Mississippi River). The US has Fringes, for example Both Coast but these are fully integrated with the Mississippi water shed. What is Canada's Center? An Argument can be made for the Great Lakes and the St Lawrence, but the US also borders the Great Lakes (and rivers and lakes unite people, they do not divide people). And that is Canada's chief problem since 1777, Canada is NOT a nation-State but that part of English North American Britain was able to hold onto in 1783. It is a remnant, a useful remnant but a remnant (Like the English Channel Islands, closer to France than Britain but part of Britain except for being Occupied by the Germans 1940-1944). You can make a better argument that the American South is a Nation-State than you can for Canada (Similar History, similar language, and outlook, an outlook different from the rest of the US do to the South's History). The South is not a variable Country given the unifying power of the Mississippi, but it has more difference culturally from the rest of the US than does Canada.

Geography and economically (through NOT politically) the US goes from the Mississippi Water Shed to both Coasts, and includes the Great lakes and the St Lawrence (and thus all of Canada). The US Southern Border is less Certain, while Texans like to think as the Rio Grand as its Border, River Unite not Divide people. The Rio Grand was claimed by Sam Houston to be used as a trip wire of a Mexican invasion than as a true border. The Rio Grand Valley is more a nation-State than Canada, it has a Center, The Rio Grand, it is separate enough from both the Mexican Valley and the Mississippi Valley to be independent of both. It has a common Language (Spanish). In many ways the Rio Grand is like Egypt, a Nation-State defined by a River than any other center. A similar argument can be made for the Colorado River except for its nearest to Southern California which with its large English speaking Population makes it part of the US (Through I can see Southern California and the Colorado River as a separate Nation-State for again like Egypt water is important. Northern California is clearly part of the US Nation-State, it is NOT a border area under the Control of a Nation-State (Like the Colorado and Rio Grand is under US control).

Thus whenever I read about Canada I just have to remind myself it is a Independent State even if it is not a Nation. These two words are do NOT mean the same thing. Canada is just the best example of the difference in the world.

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kitty1 Donating Member (772 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #32
36. Invasion may be a strong word, but the war of 1812
was definitely about strong-arming the British over territorial control and gaining some population leverage in Upper Canada as well. Happyslug quotes "As you can see that invasion achieved its objective, Tecumseh was dead, the invasion was NOT in reality an invasion to take and hold Canada and it makes me laugh every time I hear Canadians talk about how their drove out the Americans in that Invasion. Did not happen, some Americans even stayed and some Canadians even moved south with their relatives in the American Militia"
However, there was enough dissention between both countries to cause more than a few battles. For instance, the Battles of Chauteauguay which was conducted under the leadership of Colonel De Salsberry was an instrumental one in that war, and De Salaberry (A Canadian Leutenant Colonel) led his troops to some victories.
"Hampton judged the abatis too heavily defended to be taken by frontal assault. He grossly overestimated his opponents’ numbers at twice his own; in fact, he outnumbered them by about eight to one. He sent Colonel Robert Purdy with 1500 men on a sixteen mile overnight trek through the forest across the river to flank the Canadians.

After stumbling through the woods until after midnight, Purdy decided to wait for daylight before proceeding. In the morning, de Salaberry’s scouts detected his presence. Lieutenant Colonel “Red George” Macdonell, who’d been charged with guarding the Canadian rear, sent two companies of select embodied militia, including the Glengarry Light Infantry, to stop them. Purdy’s advance guard was just emerging from a cedar swamp when they stumbled into each other. Both sides opened fire. The Americans turned and ran. Several of them were then killed by the main body of Americans who mistook them for charging Canadians.

At two o’clock, Hampton’s main force attacked the abatis. Some of De Salaberry’s men spread out and sounded bugles simultaneously at different points in the forest, further fooling the Americans with regards to the size of their force. Mohawk warriors from Kahnawake, concealed among the trees, fired muskets and whooped loudly. The Americans, believing the bulk of the enemy were coming at them from that direction, fired volley after volley at nothing more than tree branches.

By then, Red George’s militiamen had made contact with Purdy’s detachment. The Americans fired a series of deadly volleys at them, but in the forest gloom, they failed to see that the Canadians were firing from a kneeling position. The American flew harmlessly over the Canadians. Meanwhile, Canadian muskets took a considerable toll on their enemy.

Purdy tried to outflank Red George’s men by skirting along the riverbank, but de Salaberry had anticipated that move and placed a detachment, muskets at the ready on the far bank of the narrow river. One volley was enough to send the Americans back inside the trees. Tired, wet, and believing themselves vastly outnumbered, the Americans had had enough. General Hampton ordered a general withdrawal"

Sure, it's true that the British provided the core leadership and planning of that war, but Canadians both English, French and Native held their own together during that time. That was very much our country then, and is still our NATION now. Out citizens have fought and died for this country over centuries. It has it's own true identity which is neither British nor American. It has evolved to what it is today with a heart and soul which is uniquely ours.
(BTW, the War of 1812 overture is catchy. I especially love the cannons)
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #36
47. And Roger's Rangers fought for the British between 1775-1781
Begin the King's Ranger, then the Queen's Rangers. Raised from Volunteers from New York, Pennsylvania and New Jersey. After the war, re-settled in Ontario (Where it is still part of the Canadians Military). One of many examples of Americans who backs the British during the Revolution. At the same time the Majority of Americans wanted Independence. These American Torys had a good Military Reputation during the Revolution BUT THE FACT THEY FOUGHT WELL DOES NOT MEAN THEY REPRESENTED THE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS (Just like the new Iraq Army represents the Majority of Iraqis). Thus you make some good points, but none of them shows who the majority of Canadians and Canadian Militiamen supported the Crown between 1812-1815. The Historians I have read lean to neutrality at best (with many Canadians and Canadian Militiamen more than willing to accept American Rule in the War of 1812 AND the American Revolution). As I said in my previous Post, the Canadian Militia had two conflicting tendency in the War of 1812, the Enlisted Ranks being the sons of people who fought on the American Side at Bunker Hill, and a Leadership whose fathers fought on the British side during the Revolution. As a result the Canadian Militia has at best a mixed reputation in the War of 1812.

I should also point out the US Militia was almost at bad at time. New England and New York Militia (Neither Threaten by Native Americans by the time of the War of 1812) did NOT support the War (New England even held a convention to succeed from the Union over the War, the Convention disbanded with the News of Jackson's victory over the British at New Orleans and the Peace Treaty ending the war (do to the limitation of Communications at that time period, Jackson Victory was known first and than a few days later news of the Peace Treaty, even through Jackson's Victory was AFTER the Peace Treaty had Been Signed in Europe). The Federalist Party of Washington and Adams basically dissolved over supporting Succession and then having that movement undercut by the Treaty and Jackson's Victory.
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GoddessOfGuinness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 12:29 AM
Response to Original message
34. It'd be interesting to know
what sort of "What if" scenarios are being planned for at this very moment.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 02:14 AM
Response to Original message
37. Canadians have known about this for a long time
Edited on Sat Dec-31-05 02:17 AM by Minstrel Boy
Plan Red was declassified in 1974 and is been available for $25 from the U.S. National Archives.

Though Plan Red dates from 1930, other plans have existed since. There's a Canadian book from 1993 entitled Bordering on Aggression that details Plan Red and others, including more recent US military options towards Canada, particularly with respect to the strategically poised Fort Drum in upstate New York.

See here, for instance, from author Floyd Rudmin:

The research in Bordering on Aggression was conducted, part-time, in publicly available libraries and archives. Almost 600 footnotes identify sources of information in U.S. military journals, U.S. and Canadian newspapers on microfilm, the Congressional Record, history texts, and personal letters. Les Aspin, now U.S. Secretary of Defense, read an early draft of this research and called it "a masterful piece of research," but nevertheless argued that Fort Drum does not threaten Canada because the U.S. could invade Canada with or without the assault troops located there.

In 1984, Fort Drum housed only an engineering battalion, but now it commands a rapid assault light division and a reserve armored division-for a total of 30,000 troops. The expansion of Fort Drum was the largest Army construction project ever undertaken by the Army Corps of Engineers. It was given unprecedented advanced budget authorization, even though the U.S. had surplus military bases at the time.

...

Fort Drum is uniquely situated close to Ottawa and within operational proximity to Montreal and even Toronto. The seizure of the region from the Thousand Islands to Ottawa would Simultaneously cut east-west highway, railway and seaway connections in Canada, immobilize the federal government, disrupt Canadian military communications now centred in Kingston, split Canada at its major ethnic fissure; and separate our two major population centres.

...

Again, close alliance seems to count for little. The 1939 plan for war on Canada focused on the capture of Halifax. Although no plans for the invasion of Canada have been declassified since 1940, there is evidence that the U.S. military has made such preparations. For example, in the 1960s the U.S. Army's Special Operations and Research Office studied Quebec, along with Latin American countries, to understand how to suppress social revolutions. In October 1970 {during the "October Crisis" of Quebec separatist hostage-taking incidents}, the U.S. brought troops and armored forces to the border and threatened to occupy Ottawa and Montreal. At least that is what Canada's director of RCMP counter-intelligence said in 1973 to the Toronto Star. An unnamed Canadian military officer confirmed the story. There have even been rumors that the U.S. put army and naval forces on alert for the 1980 sovereignty-association referendum in Quebec.


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newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. so, how many Americans
even back in the thirties would have wanted to invade Canada? I believe that there would have been some Americans fighting on the Canadian side.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 03:11 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. Like, Iraq,Vietnam, etc, going would be easy, staying hard...
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sleipnir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. Exactly. My theory is that in case of Quebec Independence, the US...
sends "peacekeepers" to the region to help suppress the well-timed CIA-backed riots, fearful that it may spread over the border and into the Niagara region. The troops on the ground stay there, as the Canadians can't do anything with the "insurgency" in Quebec taking up most of their time and money. Then, the US offers protection to the Maritime Provinces, who might well accept seeing the actual potential for danger from the Quebec area and the reality that they are now cut off from the rest of Canada. Eventually, those provinces are offered to hold a referendum on US statehood, and the troops march in to help with the elections. Thus, the US stations troops in several Canadian provinces and with the help of Diebold acquires 5 new states and good deal of natural resources and open land.

Canada is then effectively neutered with the loss of half of their provinces...it's the NAFTA Neo-Con's wet dream...
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Canadian Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. I see a flaw in your theory.
that being - the U.S. taking over Quebec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, P.E.I. and Newfoundland/Labrador. This would NOT by any means "neuter" Canada, simply because the majority of the population does not live there, and the majority of the wealth (in resources, infrastructure, etc.) is not there but in Ontario (population, centre of wealth), Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, B.C. and the NWT have the majority of the non-renewable and highly desirable resources (oil, water, precious/base metals, timber, hydro electricity, as well as a fairly large population base that carries guns <g>). So, you see, it isn't that simple.
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Dunvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 03:17 AM
Response to Original message
40. What a wonderful thread...
Edited on Sat Dec-31-05 03:24 AM by Dunvegan
...and great North American history!

Thank you for all the research and absorbing writing.

Much appreciated...read with much relish (and mustard!)

Oh, and edited to say: Canada - True North. Strong. Free.
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Lisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
41. people may be interested in the old Richard Roehmer novel "Exxoneration"
The US invades Canada, and it all goes horribly wrong!
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Prisoner_Number_Six Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
43. Sounds like a plan to me!
I say we do it. Those Canucks need a good slap-down anyway- talking French Freedom and all that. I've always thought they were a bit too uppity for the world's good.

:evilgrin:
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
45. Canada is a socialist nation and definitely is scarier than
Mexico... thats why the invasion...
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
49. Kick
:kick:
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meisje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
50. I need more raw land to drive my Suv's on
and Canada is lookin pretty good!
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oblivious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
51. This thread must be moved to DISCUSSION.
To be fair, this should not be in the Latest Breaking News section and the headline should have mentioned the year.

Interesting that The Globe and Mail had a similar column the following day.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20051231.wxattack31/BNStory/Front/

I notice the WaPo version left out the poison gas plans.

Para 25 in the Globe column: It starts with a seaborne assault on Halifax to cut Canada off from its British ally. A later version, approved in 1935, allowed for first-strike use of poison gas and strategic bombing of the city, if necessary.

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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
53. We pay people
to sit around and draw up plans to invade everyone.

There is a plan to invade england, fiji, and greece collecting dust somewhere too.


Just out of curiosity where is all this supposedly classified material leaking from? I remember being told that leaking this stuff would get you ten years when I had a very low level clearance.

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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. But there was no plan for Iraq? Bummer!
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. May have just been a really bad one..
I think they ignored the plan fro the dod and came up with a lighter cheaper package.

Who knows but they do have quite a mess. Cheap bastards (Rummy) din not use the correct number of people or mix of nations to support the mess.

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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
56. Control over Canadian territory part of Washington's agenda
Following are snips from an article by Canadian Economics professor Michel Chossudovsky:

Canada is already a de facto economic protectorate of the USA. The US-Canada FTA and NAFTA has not only opened up new avenues for US corporate expansion, it has laid the groundwork under the existing North American umbrella for the post 9/11 integration of military command structures, public security, intelligence and law enforcement.

No doubt, Canada's entry into US Northern Command will be presented to public opinion as part of Canada-US "cooperation", as something which is "in the national interest", which "will create jobs for Canadians", and "will make Canada more secure".

<snip>

And ultimately what is at stake is that beneath the rhetoric, Canada will cease to function as a Nation:

Its borders will be controlled by US officials and confidential information on Canadians will be shared with Homeland Security.

US troops and Special Forces will be able to enter Canada as a result of a binational arrangement.

Canadian citizens can be arrested by US officials, acting on behalf of their Canadian counterparts and vice versa.

But there is something perhaps even more fundamental in defining and understanding where Canada and Canadians stand as nation.

The Liberals as well as the opposition Conservative party have embraced the US war agenda. By endorsing a Canada-US "integration" in the spheres of defense, homeland security, police and intelligence, Canada not only becomes a full fledged member of George W. Bush's "Coalition of the Willing", it will directly participate, through integrated military command structures, in the US war agenda in Central Asia and the Middle East, including the massacre of civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan, the torture of POWs, the establishment of concentration camps, etc.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CHO20050616&articleId=174

The above link does not seem to work well in Firefox. The text runs off the side of the screen at my customary 800 x 600 resolution. However, it works OK in IE.

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dilligas Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
57. Invade Canada...?
:rofl:
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