Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Tense Debates in Saudi Arabia as Islamists Fear Reforms

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU
 
Gloria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 12:15 AM
Original message
Tense Debates in Saudi Arabia as Islamists Fear Reforms
From the new World Media Watch up now at http://www.zianet.com/insightanalytical
Tomorrow at Buzzflash.com


4//The Jordan Times, Jordan Friday-Saturday, March 17-18, 2006

http://www.jordantimes.com/fri/news/news8.htm



TENSE DEBATES IN SAUDI ARABIA AS ISLAMISTS FEAR REFORMS

By Andrew Hammond

Reuters



RIYADH — When Saudi intellectuals got together this month to discuss reforming the education system, they needed armed security officers to protect them.



"Some people said they were going to teach me a lesson here," Abdullah Al Ghodami declared defiantly, challenging the Islamists attending a seminar in Riyadh.


(SNIP)



Education is just one area where Islamists see Western influence creeping in, with the help of a fifth column of Saudis whom they attack regularly as "Bani Alman" — the secular tribe.



Washington has pressed Saudi Arabia to change the school syllabus which, with its demonisation of non-Muslim Westerners as "infidels," helped create a social mindset that produced 15 of the 19 militants who attacked US cities on September 11.

MORE
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
1. That country is ready to fly apart at the seams
Incomes have been declining there for a very long time, joblessness is the norm for many young, educated Saudis, and people are chafing under both the harsh Wahabbi interpretation of Islam and the royal family, itself. There will always be a clash there between modernizers and conservatives, but this time there are too many other components to the ongoing friction for the ruling family to ignore much longer.

No matter how they reform, though, they will be very unlike us and will probably not be our friends. Too much baggage.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Drum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. revolution?
is their ruling family harsh enough to invite this, or are they too big and powerful? I just don't know very much about them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I honestly thought there would be more trouble when the old king
died, but I guess all the family factions had been knuckling under to the king's brother (the present king) that the transition was smooth.

However, there are as many factions within that family as there are outside it, so I don't foresee smooth transitions of power forever.

I don't know what will happen there, only that something drastic is inevitable and that the world will likely be blindsided by it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Drum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Ouch.
But thanks for answering!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. There has been a sort of low level conflict going on for some time.
Not much comes out, one or two stories a year, in magazines, not newspapers. Things may be better outside the US.

There are enthic divisions and tribal "issues" and so on, the particular one I have read about is between Asir along the Red Sea and the ruling desert tribes, and of course there are the Shi'ia over where the oil is. But on the other hand they have effective internal police and money to burn. Still, you know it's going to blow one of these days, same as Pakistan.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
6. Al-Qaida warning to Saudis
---

"To Americans we tell you to leave Muhammad's peninsula , and leave all Muslim lands. Stop aiding Jews in Palestine and stop aiding Christians in Muslim lands or else you will face killing, destruction and bombings," said al-Juweir, who was on a most-wanted list of al-Qaida suspects.

"To the Saudi government, we have come to you to slaughter you and your rule is fleeting ... If you knew what the have prepared for you, you would be fleeing this Arabian peninsula."

---

" Nayef bin Abdul Aziz told you to sell your souls to his government and kill for him in defence of Americans ... Stop defending tyrants and join the mujahideen or else you know what awaits you," he said.

---

The Saudi wing of al-Qaida has been waging a violent campaign for more than two years aimed at toppling the pro-US monarchy and expelling Westerners from the birthplace of Islam.


al Jazeera
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wordpix2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
7. wealthy Saudis send their sons to American private schools & colleges
One such student told me his family would never consider a Saudi school for him because the education there is awful. He said the "long beards" in SA have been threatening to take over for a long time and "they are not Muslim or religious because Islam is a religion of peace."

So there is now a pro-Western, western educated elite in SA and a Taliban-type fundie group or groups that threaten to take over. It's apparently a very dangerous time in SA.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
onager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
8. Ready to fall apart any day...
Edited on Fri Mar-17-06 11:24 AM by onager
I worked in Saudi Arabia for 2 years and this very morning, am getting ready to go spend several months in Egypt.

Here are some things to ponder that I've picked up, from reading the Middle Eastern press and books on the topic. And gossip! :-)

--Who REALLY rules Saudi Arabia? The "Sudairi Seven." These are the sons of the favorite wife of King Abdul-Aziz, founder of...cough..."modern" Saudi Arabia. These sons include the late King Fahd, current king Abdullah, Ministry Of Defense czar Prince Sultan, and the very interesting Prince Turki...a fundamentalist extremist who was very close to former Saudi citizen Osama bin Laden. IIRC, Turki used to be Saudi Minister of the Interior. I believe he resigned shortly after Sept. 11, 2001.

--Before the Bushes rehabilitated King Abdullah as our Stalwart Arabian Ally, he was also known for anti-Western, pro-Wahhabi Fundamentalist views. Among other jobs, he was always in charge of the Saudi Arabian National Guard (SANG), which should NOT be confused with the American National Guard. (Though the Saudis would like for us to have that impression.)

Better equipped and trained than the Saudi Army, the SANG has only one function--protecting the Saudi royal family from a military coup. It was formed in 1965, shortly after extremists in the Saudi military took over the country's new TV station, blasting it as "a tool of the devil."

That coup ended in a shootout authorized by King Feisal, who (to his credit) insisted that no one in his country would be above the law...even though the leader of the coup was his nephew and a member of the royal family.

Ten years later, in 1975, the coup leader's younger brother got religion and became a militant Wahhabi extremist (after years of living as a drug-addled, sex-crazed playboy in the West). The bro' celebrated his newfound religious ecstasy by assassinating his uncle, the king.

--The SANG became even more important after 1975, when armed Shi'ites took over the Grand Mosque in Mecca during Ramadan and held it for 3 bloody weeks. The Saudis claim, in a very Bush-like manner, that their own Heroic Military Forces took back the Holy Place from the infidels.

Rumors have always said the Saudis finally gave up on their military forces and sub-contracted the job to French commandos. That sounds closer to the truth.

Ever since, the few Shi'ite towns in Saudi Arabia get a lot of attention from the government during religious festivals. Generally attention in the form of armored vehicles, the Secret Police, and artillery staged outside the Shi'ite towns...

--The royal family now numbers about 20,000 people. Think of them as a very large Bush family. They are all entitled to free stipends from the oil money, but a few million bucks just doesn't go that far these days.

So the royal family is...um...expanding its economic interests. And how are they doing that?

Let's say you own a new and popular restaurant in downtown Riyadh. One night a Saudi prince comes in and likes the place.

The prince will make you an offer to buy your restaurant and write you a check on the spot. You don't like his offer? Tough shit. You can take the money or you can go to jail.

The same reasoning applies if you have a piece of land, a new housing development, etc. that is suddenly coveted by a member of the royal family.

Naturally, stunts like this are causing tremendous bitterness among non-royal Saudis.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-17-06 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
9. Family dictatorship rarely last more than 2 "Biblical" Generations
Edited on Fri Mar-17-06 12:56 PM by happyslug
A "Biblical Generation" is about 40 years, thus most family dictatorships last about 80 years. The reason for this is the founder of the Dynasty is always a master politicians who knows how to organize his country and get the people behind him. An example of this is Stalin in 1920 Russia, another is Augustus in the decades before the Common Era.

Now these Dictators take over and often rule Ruthlessly but have massive popular Support do to the political network they set up (Again Stalin in the late 1920s and Early 1930s Russia and Augustus from the Death of his uncle Caesar in 44 BC till the Defeat of Anthony).

Now when the first dictator dies off he is replaced by less competent people (The Dictator had killed off any competent challengers). You see this in 14 AD when Tiberius Replaced Augustus and in 1954 when Khrushchev succeed Stalin. Now the Second Generation came of age under the original Dictator and have worked together under that dictator, and as such they continue to work together fighting for power within the government but refusing to go the extra step of killing each other. For example when the Ruling elite in the Soviet Union thought Khrushchev was going to fast, he wad replaced by Brezhnev. Khrushchev was NOT killed, just exiled to a Collective Farm (And when Khrushchev had his memoir's published in the West, he stay on the farm was extended, again he was NOT killed). The Second generation had work so long under the original dictator and survived that Dictator that to kill a fellow member of the elite would be a step to far.

Now the problems begin with the Third Generation takes over. Int he Case of Ancient Rome this started under Caligula but he was killed after four years of rule and a member of the middle generation was picked to succeed him (and in turn replaced by a new member of the third Generation, Nero).

The problem with the Third Generation is they have NO personnel memory of the original Dictatorships and have developed connections of their own. unlike the Middle Generation who grew up in fear of being killed by the Dictator, the third Generation had no such common experience to share with each other EXCEPT they belief it is their right to the benefits of Society as being a member of the Ruling Elite. With no common bond holding them together the knives come out and they are willing to kill each other to get their way (For example Nero killing of his Mother and other Roman Elites which lead to his overthrow and the year of three Emperors which put Vespasian in Power and the system started all over again, through more quickly).

In Saudi Arabia the Founder of "Modern" Saudi Arabia died in 1952 (The Same year as Stalin, this is the original King Saud). Unlike Russia, The house of Saud set the Kingdom up as a Blood Family Dictatorship NOT a political family Dictatorship (as had been in the case in Russia and to a lesser degree Ancient Rome). Thus the Middle Generation were not only people who lived under the Original Dictator, but also his blood relatives and siblings to each other. Now Under Islam a man can have more than one wife, but he has to provide a separate house for each, but the houses can be beside each other so all of his children grew up with each other to a limited degree. Some were older and more connected then others but to a degree ALL of them had a human bond to each other more than having survived a brutal Dictator. Thus while the Soviet Union Collapsed in the 1980s when the Third Generation started to fight over how and who should rule Russia (Both Gorbachev and Yeltsin were of this Third Generation of Communist Politic an), The House of Saud has survived almost another 20 years WITHOUT the Third generation taking over (King Abdullah, as was King Fahd a son of the founding Dictator). This Middle Generation will not last that much longer, the youngest child of the founder is at least 54 years old (assuming such a child was born the year the original king died, all the record I have seen point to his youngest being born in 1945 but the records are state Secrets in Arabia to this day, if 1945 is the youngest than ALL of his children are over 60 years of age). Most of the middle generation is in their 70s and 80s.

Like the Russia in the late 1980s and throughout the 1990s Saudi Arabia will be the country to watch for radical change in the coming decade. The third Generation is taking over, slowly but surely, the key is what will that take over entail? Will you have a burst of liberalism like in Russia or a burst of Islamic extremism. In Russia once Communism was viewed as dead, westernization was the only path open to Russia and Russia has a long history (going back to Peter the Great) of Westernization. The opposite can be said of Arabia, they tendency over the last three hundred years have been to embrace Wahhabism form of Islam, the same radical form idealized by bin Laden.

Does this mean Arabia will NOT Modernized? No, such a revolution is possible but with the radical islamic more committed to their idea then are the people supporting westernization I lean to the Islamics to win (Just like the Communists under Lenin won in 1917, it was NOT because he had the Majority of people behind him, but he had the largest group of COMMITTED followers behind him).

On the original King Saud and his family)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Saud
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu May 09th 2024, 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC