Details emerging after 17 terror arrests in Toronto

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/06/03/terror-suspects.html

Details began emerging Saturday of an RCMP raid east of Toronto in which 17 people were arrested Friday evening on terrorism-related charges.


An officer is seen outside the police station in Pickering, Ont., Friday night. (CBC)
Police said 12 adults and five young offenders have been charged with a number of terrorism offenders.

The RCMP said they "have arrested a number of individuals who were planning to commit a series of terror attacks against targets here in southern Ontario."

Looks like you beat me by seconds.

These govts are totally hell bent on forcing us to become a NORTH AMERICAN state.

These operatives will do whatever they need to do to create fear and suspicion...to keep the funding going for the expanding POLICE STATE and INDUSTRIAL COMPLEXES and the elimination of our CIVIL RIGHTS and the loss of our Constitutional Protections.

WAKE UP! YOU ARE BEING FOOLED!

DO NOT HIDE! DO NOT RECOIL FROM USING THE INTERNET FOR YOUR VOICE!

10 May 2006

HAVE 200,000 AK47S FALLEN INTO THE HANDS OF IRAQ TERRORISTS?
FEARS OVER SECRET U.S. ARMS SHIPMENT

SOME 200,000 guns the US sent to Iraqi security forces may have been smuggled to terrorists, it was feared yesterday.
The 99-tonne cache of AK47s was to have been secretly flown out from a US base in Bosnia. But the four planeloads of arms have vanished.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=17055497&method=full&siteid=94762&headline=have-200-000-missing-ak47s-fallen-into-the-hands-of-iraq-terrorists---name_page.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
ASK THE REAL QUESTIONS.

Sorry, my country doesn't operate like yours. Planted it on them? Perhaps you may want to read up a little more. For instance how about the fact a local Islamic Ima says he knew one of these guys personally and knew he was up to no good. Or wait! Is that Islamic leader a plant from the mystical evil powers of which you speak?

Either way, if you can manage to get out of your padded room, go buy a newspaper and do some reading.

Dont fool yourself.

I get paid to watch all this shit, no one's being fooled here.

and info gathering by various intel operatives. This was no clandestine overnite operation. CSIS, RCMP, as well as municipal and local law enforcement were all involved. Some simultaneous overseas arrests were made as well in the recent months. The accumulation of l3 tons of ammonia nitrate would be going to a lot of trouble if this was a plant I would think.
(BTW, As a fellow Canadian HeyHey, I would ask you to turn down the volume a bit on your replies. Just a tad bit testy sounding.)

You're new here, once you've dealt with some of these conspiracy theory lovin' nitwits you'll have little patience too.

Oh, that's IT. :grr:

And here I thought I knew you. :cry:

Definitely not.

Honestly, framing people is not exclusive to certain countries. It's as old as any law enforcement/intelligence agency. As of now, we know nothing about the govt's case and evidence except for these pictures. Let's see how the trial goes and how strong the crown's case is.

There is definitely some kind of manipulation going on, same as in the UK
which coincidentally had terror raids on the same day.

Of course I don't know the details of this case, it can be anywhere along the spectrum from getting an innocent guy (e.g. the Menenzez shooting, several Gitmo and "extraordinary rendition detainees) to arresting two-bit players and trumping up bigger charges (eg Padilla, Moussaoui) to LIHOP (7/7) or MIHOP (9/11).

Oh wait a minute, you don't have it in Canada. Good job anyway! :toast:

PLEASE PEOPLE...please please please wake up!

that sure as hell is grounds for investigation.

But what's in a name.

Bomb plot suspects 'inspired by al-Qaeda'

Lawyer gears up to fight charges

Another lawyer for some of the accused talked to reporters outside a courtroom in Brampton where the suspects were taken on Saturday. He said relatives of the accused are considering filing lawsuits.

"I think there are a lot of people here today who should not be involved in this," said Anser Farooq. "I think they cast their net far too wide."

The arrests mark the second time people have been detained under Canada's Anti-terrorism Act.

The first case involves Mohammad Momin Khawaja, an Ottawa-area man charged with participating in the activities of a British terrorist group and facilitating a terrorist activity. He is being held in an Ottawa detention centre, awaiting trial.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/06/03/suspects060603.html

Ratcheting up the fear. It's really sad to watch the country I've loved descend into neocon madness. The timetable is just a few years behind the United States, and it's so painful to watch because the script is being followed so precisely.

Down here, we know what comes next, because we've already been there. In the name of Barbara Frum, I beg you ... turn back now, while there's still time.

Canadian police say they have foiled a major "al Qaeda-inspired" bomb plot against targets in and around Toronto.


I think it is more a Tim McVey inspired....

they got the idea from al Queda. To me that's more evidence they are RW'ers.

it maybe that unlike Bush Canadian leaders listen to their intelligence service instead of manipulating it for their own means

3 tons of Ammonium Nitrate, and explosive devices. This is not neocon madness, it is Islamic Extremism madness.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

One of the suspects is:

"Shareef Abdelhaleen is a 30-year-old unmarried computer programmer of Egyptian descent, Galati said. He emigrated from Egypt at the age of 10 with his father who is now an engineer on contract with Atomic Energy of Canada, the lawyer said. "


The ages range from 17 to 43 years old.

3 tonnes of Ammonium Nitrate and a range of explosive devices were seized.


http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=19956a53-5496-40cc-b677-cc41f76ec9f3&k=34449

The governing party in Canada has not been around very long, and certainly don't have the pull to have the cops set up people. Second, unlike the US authorities, the RCMP have, many times in the past, investigated and laid charges on Canadian politicians INCLUDING Prime Ministers.

Here it comes.

But that's just me.

who "crossed into the U.S.A. from Canada?" The fact is none of the 9/11 terrorists came from Canada, but many Americans still believe that to be true. I saw something someone on DU posted about it just within the last week or so....Well, I guess we can count on needing a passport for sure now, to get into the U.S.A!

WAKE UP, AMERICA!

THIS IS A FRAUD.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I say we ask the USA to tighten up border security~!

controls? :eyes:

I've been waiting for this....its just been a matter of time. I said just this last month to my husband that now that George W. got his wish for Nat'l Guard along the US/Mexican border and the "Wall", how much longer before there is either some incident or some information that leads the Bush Administration to announcing similar and tighter security along the US/Canadian border...

I'm not saying that this incident isn't real and that as a 2 year investigation before Harper coming in that its not a real plot. But I think that the Neo-cons North of the border and south of the border will use whateve they can to implement any plans they have for the border.

You state that the Canadians can count on needing a passport for sure now to get in the US - I say we Americans might have to count on NOT being able to leave the US! :eyes:

:rofl:

No confirmation I know of, but it sounds like they've bought the farm too... :spray:



Okay, in all seriousness - and this sure as hell is - I'm glad it was foiled BEFORE and not AFTER. I wish we could say the same for the US on 9/11, which was far bigger and therefore far easier to have found out.

The moment one and one's followers kill without remorse, it becomes clear that it is not possible to talk with them. They want their enemy dead; there is no option for talks until they make visible, coherent signs for peace.

And as we are their enemy... if we stood down, they'd have no qualms in exterminating us. For that is what they want.

Of course, as some in America on 9/11 cheered the destruction of the towers, I'm surprised they haven't been spied on. (maybe they're not Democrats. :shrug: )

and Algerians and Tunisians had a free pass to emigrate to a peaceful nation close to their real enemy and only involved in peacekeeping, Canada was not a target. Canada's 11:59 conversion to Conservative Fundieism (aka Harper et al) has clearly moved it to the other side of their ledgers, as a sweet, easy-looking target.

Don't forget the LAX plot back in 2000 and thank providence they have acted like a bunch of morons thus far...

so much for that theory

The article doesn't say. But I've a sneaking suspicion these guys are young RW nuts. The super-crazy RW has plenty of these "terrorism training camps". While the RW is far outnumbered in Canada, they are feeling very frustrated these days. Read some of their threads on FR sometime.

People are way to quick to jump to conclusions.

Lest We Forget:



That turned out as complete bullshit...

AND well eariler in the week, Canada was treated to Top Spy Guy CSIS's Jack Hooper's Senate Committee testimony about 'homegrown terrorism' on Monday that got lots of Canuck media ink.



Good call, Jack...cause later in the week, you guys manage to catch a group of terrorists that so far matches up to the erailer testimony...

hmmm...

We'll let this story develop until there are 'mo' better' details...

For years the rabid separatist BQ have been blackmailing Canada Immigration into providing carte blanch immigration for middle easterners from Algerian and other north African countries in order to offset a percieved imbalance in French speaking new immigrants. While on the one hand, one can accept such arguments as somewhat fairer to Francophones, the simple fact is that the population demographics, especially within Quebec and neighboring Ontario have shifted to a decidedly larger Islamic population than ever before, and this population group continues to grow.

It is extreme folly, and this case goes to prove it, that perhaps the greatest terrorist threat to America would find a warm hearth and launchpad along America's northeastern and central heartland borders.

Now that a Conservative minority regime has siezed power in Canada, due once again to the same treasonous Block Quebecois Separatist Party having recieved official "national" party standing in Canadian politics (national party "standing" in a country they are openly pledged and determined to destroy, - they were mostly former dissafected Conservatives themselves) no clear majority emerged from the last election.

These conservatives immediately reversed Canada's policy of peacekeeping to curry favor with the "Great Decider" by, for the first time since North Korea, sending Canadian troops into Afghanistan in combat roles. While certainly not so controversial a move to most Canadians who can appreciate the certain legitimacy of that conflict, it has thus painted a target on the backs of all Canadians, in this case most likely perhaps to the benefit of our close American friends and relatives.

Nonetheless, the need for US Homeland security to pour more money and resources into vigilance and agressive new "outside the box" strategies to protect the vital economic links (border crossing assets) that preserve and support our economic lifelines is long, long long and sadly more than overdue!

A border is not a line in a river, it is a friendly linkage that BEGINS on the OTHER side!!!

It's the least you could do.

AS well, we don't even know where these people are from. Thus far, all but two are Canadian. That could mean they are born here. You have no proof they are from Africa, or French speaking.
But I like how you managed to group the two things right wing pricks like to attack in this country the most; the French, and people of colour.

That you are too kind.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pricks

A bunch of snobs who would prefer to have a sovereign Quebec nation even if it means they end up eating dog food because their economy would be ruins as a result.

That you don't need too much electricity in the not existent CO2 warming.

Charged are Fahim Ahmad, 21, of Toronto; Zakaria Amara, 20, of Mississauga; Asad Ansari, 21, of Mississauga; Shareef Abdelhaleen, 30, of Mississauga; Qayyum Abdul Jamal, 43, of Mississauga; Mohammed Dirie, 22, of Kingston; Yasim Abdi Mohamed, 24, of Kingston; Jahmaal James, 23, of Toronto; Amin Mohamed Durrani, 19, of Toronto; Steven Vikash Chand (alias Abdul Shakur), 25, of Toronto; Ahmad Mustafa Ghany, 21, of Mississauga; and Saad Khalid, 19, of Mississauga. Further arrests are imminent.


5 Young Offenders were also charged but they cannot be named.

We are SO LUCKY when you think of what has happened in so many other countries!

Canada terror suspects may have had US contacts
Reuters
Saturday, June 3, 2006; 3:29 PM

... "There is preliminary indication that some of the Canadian subjects may have had limited contact with the two people recently arrested from Georgia," said FBI spokesman Richard Kolko in an e-mail.

Syed Haris Ahmed, 21, of Atlanta, Georgia, was arrested March 23 after a grand jury returned an indictment charging him with material support of terrorism. He has pleaded innocent and has not yet come to trial.

Ehsanul Islam Sadequee, 19, left Georgia after Ahmed's indictment but was later taken into custody in Bangladesh and returned to the United States, where he was charged in New York's federal court with lying to federal officials in an ongoing terrorism investigation.

Sadequee and Ahmed traveled to Canada on March 13, 2005, to meet with Islamic extremists, according to a U.S. Justice Department statement ...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/03/AR2006060300245.html


Posted Saturday, June 3 at 4:35 PM
Canadian terror threat foiled, connected to Dawsonville suspect
the Associated Press

TORONTO - Canadian authorities said Saturday they foiled plans for a homegrown terrorist attack with the arrests of 17 men and teens, who were ``inspired by al-Qaida'' and had obtained three times the amount of explosives used in the deadly Oklahoma City bombing.

The FBI in Washington said the Canadian suspects may have had ``limited contact'' with two men recently arrested on terrorism charges in Georgia ...

``This group took steps to acquire three tons of ammonium nitrate and other components necessary to create explosive devices,'' said assistant Royal Canadian Mounted Police commissioner Mike McDonell ...

http://www.accessnorthga.com/news/hall/newfullstory.asp?ID=104337


Arrests in terror raid
Twelve nabbed, one suspect sought
Stewart Bell, National Post
Published: Saturday, June 03, 2006

.. Arrests in Canada have been widely anticipated since the FBI announced in April it had apprehended two Georgia men on terrorism-related charges.

At the time, the FBI said Ehsanul Sadeqee and Syed Ahmed met in Toronto with at least three subjects of a terrorism investigation to discuss training and attacks. The Toronto men were described as "like-minded Islamic extremists," but were not further identified ..

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=954cb8ed-17ea-4aec-b178-23899c92122d

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1149329598732&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154


The arrestees (except for juveniles), according to the Star:

1. Fahim Ahmad, 21, Toronto;
2. Zakaria Amara, 20, Mississauga, Ont.;
3. Asad Ansari, 21, Mississauga;
4. Shareef Abdelhaleen, 30, Mississauga;
5. Qayyum Abdul Jamal, 43, Mississauga;
6. Mohammed Dirie, 22, Kingston, Ont.;
7. Yasim Abdi Mohamed, 24, Kingston;
8. Jahmaal James, 23, Toronto;
9. Amin Mohamed Durrani, 19, Toronto;
10. Steven Vikash Chand alias Abdul Shakur, 25, Toronto;
11. Ahmad Mustafa Ghany, 21, Mississauga;
12. Saad Khalid, 19, of Eclipse Avenue, Mississauga.

... Ali Dirie, also from the Toronto area?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/13/canada.weapons/index.html




Just a thought. I dunno whether they're related, or whether the two cases are related.

Luc Portelance, of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, said the suspects were all adherents of a violent ideology.

“For various reasons, they appear to have become adherents of a violent ideology inspired by Al Qaeda,” Portelance said, although officials stressed there’s no direct link between those charged to the terrorist network.

He also said he didn’t believe the alleged plot had any relation to Canada’s military role in Afghanistan.


Of course not, because everyone knows terrorists attack because they hate your freedoms.

~~~~~~~~~

And this:

"This operation in no way reflects negatively on any specific community or ethnocultural group in Canada. Terrorism is a dangerous ideology, and a global phenomenon. As yesterday’s arrests demonstrate, Canada is not immune from this ideology.”


WTF is that supposed to mean?

May 29, 2006. 01:00 AM
CAROL GOAR

... Someone should be asking tough questions about a police force that obtains search warrants without proper evidence; refuses to interview subjects who seek to clear their name; exposes individuals to opprobrium on the basis of suspicion and conjecture and dismisses all questions about its methods with a breezy: "We never comment on ongoing investigations."

... They provided information to U.S. officials that appears to have precipitated the deportation and torture of Maher Arar. The Canadian engineer was pulled off a plane in New York in 2002 on suspicion of terrorism and shipped to Syria. The extent of the RCMP's involvement in Arar's 10-month nightmare will become clearer, this summer, when a public inquiry releases its findings.

They raided the home of Juliet O'Neill, an Ottawa Citizen reporter covering the Arar case, and carted off notebooks, computer hard drives and contact books, alleging a breach of the Security of Information Act. The law, enacted in the wake of the 9/11 terrorist attacks, makes it illegal to possess or distribute classified government information. O'Neill has spent 2 1/2 years in court contesting the search warrants the Mounties used. She remains under investigation.

They accused former prime minister Brian Mulroney, in official government documents, of taking kickbacks on the sale of 34 Airbus jets to Air Canada while in office. After an eight-year investigation, they dropped the case for lack of evidence. Mulroney launched a $50 million defamation suit. He won an out-of-court settlement and a public apology from former justice minister Allan Rock ...

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1148681732770&call_pageid=968256290204&col=968350116795

but, I must say, seeing as they are being charged in court instead of hidden away without charges as some others are in Canada, I am leaning toward this being real and there is solid evidence to go with the charges.

I suspect we will know soon what the actual facts are.

"...took steps to aquire..."
Is a long way from what the thinktank'ers and bingo-callers are saying.
ie. "Ammonium nitrate seized"

:popcorn: :tinfoilhat:

Items are shown on display during a press conference in Toronto, Saturday, June 3, 2006. The bag of fertilizer, right, was not seized during the raid and was there for display purposes only.

Most arrested from GTA
Jun. 3, 2006. 01:08 PM
JESSICA LEEDER AND HAROLD LEVY
TORONTO STAR
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1149329598732&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154

Also noted that the device shown is a wrong-number/spam'my version of russian roulette.
Very stupid. Good to get idiots like that off the streets. As for the rest... :popcorn:

Thanks for pointing this out. Propaganda can be sophisticated and very subtle.

This info came from CBC News world

:think:

Could post the reference.

Manufacturing Process -
How we make Ammonium Nitrate 34-0-0 / 34.5-0-0

Ammonium nitrate is made by first making nitric acid* and then neutralizing the nitric acid with anhydrous ammonia, creating ammonium nitrate liquor. The liquor is evaporated to 99% ammonium nitrate and formed into dense ammonium nitrate granules or prills.The granules are coated with a conditioning agent to improve handling and storage properties.

*Nitric Acid production process begins by combining anhydrous ammonia with oxygen in the presence of a catalyst, to produce nitrous oxide.The nitrous oxide is then absorbed in water to produce nitric acid.

Production Locations (capacities - tonnes per year)

Canada
1. Redwater, Alberta ammonia nitrate 215,000



http://www.agrium.com/products_services/ingredients_for_growth/nitrogen/ammonium_nitrate.jsp

Last time I looked it was still part of Canada.

Either you heard wrong or someone was talking out their ass there.

From their homepage:

The Canadian Fertilizer Institute (CFI) is
an industry association representing manufacturers,
wholesale and retail distributors of
nitrogen, phosphate and potash fertilizers.

L’Institut canadien des engrais (ICE) est
une association industrielle qui représente des fabricants,
des grossistes et des détaillants d’engrais à
base d’azote, de phosphore, de potasse et de soufre.

Homepage: http://www.cfi.ca/

to be purchased over time and accumulated. They can be bought in bulk, or purchased from various outlest. (As in Oklahoma City)

The eejits who pull this stuff usually like to finish with a bang.

p.s. they ain't Islamic Fundamentalists, either.

Preserving "bilingualism" in Canada could easily have had the most tragic of consequences. Thankfully they must have been a very stupid group of plotters, indeed, but how many more chances are US CBP going to be given before some smartass actually pulls off the easiest and most devastating economic terrorist attack in North American history?

Any invaluable border crossing between the US and Canada can be easily bombed for the mere price of a Toll....

and apartments full of "bomb making equipment," drivers licenses galore, Korans, passports falling out of the sky like manna, you name it.

It's getting to be an old story.

and 2nd and 3rd generation conservative fundies with roots on this continent. IMHO Bu*h's insanely arrogant and bloodthirsty Iraq gambit has tilted the whole game against us, providing OBL a dreamscape of new opportunities..

Being terrified is what it's all about.

Just think for a minute who gains from these operations: Canadian Muslims, who will be hounded and tortured and imprisoned, or the state security apparatus, which will be lauded and generously funded and given carte blanche to eavesdrop on your phone calls?

It's easy to forget, but these are your fellow Canadians whose lives are about to get turned upside down because of a few alleged "extremists," emphasis on alleged.

Being the wrong kind of Muslim ...
By Shakira Hussein
18 November 2005


SNIP

this points to a wider misconception: the commonly held assumption that extremist Islam is directed primarily at non-Muslims, and that Muslims somehow get a free pass.

SNIP


I am somewhat impatient with the belief (held by a few Muslims as well as many non-Muslims) that Islamist violence is somehow less of a threat for us than for other Australians. For Islamic extremists, to be the “wrong” kind of Muslim - and most of the Muslim population is the “wrong” kind of Muslim - is worse than not to be Muslim at all.

The fact that moderate Muslims are at equal if not greater risk has led some commentators to say that we should support the anti-terrorism legislation. But the majority of moderate Muslims have grave misgivings about the legislation not because they support terrorism, but because they do not believe that it provides any extra safeguard against a terrorist attack. It also risks increasing the attraction of extremist groups because the reduction in civil liberties will be disproportionately felt by Muslims, heightening disaffection and alienation.



Shakira Hussein is a writer and researcher, focusing on Islam, gender and South Asia. She is currently completing her PhD on encounters between Western and Muslim women at the Australian National University.



http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/print.asp?article=3856

It's like some folks never heard that story.

Manufactured Terrorism is a High Art these days.

Specialists in many fields and a public scared of their own shadow.

What about Christian fundies terrorizing abortion providers? What about the IRA. What about the terror inflicted on Hutus in Rwanda? The list is endless. All these are manufactured? Or is only Islamic Extremism manufactured? Gee what about the assisnation of Theo Van Gogh or the terrorism the Taliban inflicted on its residents specifically on women and girls? (to name but two incontrovertible instances of Islamic extremist terrorism.)

They may not be Islamic fundies, but they are pretty pissed about something.

1. Fahim Ahmad, 21, Toronto;
2. Zakaria Amara, 20, Mississauga, Ont.;
3. Asad Ansari, 21, Mississauga;
4. Shareef Abdelhaleen, 30, Mississauga;
5. Qayyum Abdul Jamal, 43, Mississauga;
6. Mohammed Dirie, 22, Kingston, Ont.;
7. Yasim Abdi Mohamed, 24, Kingston;
8. Jahmaal James, 23, Toronto;
9. Amin Mohamed Durrani, 19, Toronto;
10. Steven Vikash Chand alias Abdul Shakur, 25, Toronto;
11. Ahmad Mustafa Ghany, 21, Mississauga;
12. Saad Khalid, 19, of Eclipse Avenue, Mississauga.


"p.s. they ain't Islamic Fundamentalists, either."

Oh yeah, definitely not. I think they're Christian Fundamentalists or something. Maybe White Power???



:eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

:rofl:

The RCMP said Saturday that after investigating the alleged homegrown terrorist cell for months, they had to move quickly Friday night to arrest 12 men and five youths before the group could launch a bomb attack on Canadian soil.

At a morning news conference, the RCMP displayed a sample of ammonium nitrate and a crude cell phone detonator they say was seized in the massive police sweep when the 17 were taken into custody.

"It was their intent to use it for a terrorist attack," said RCMP assistant commissioner Mike McDonell. "If I can put this in context for you, the 1995 bombing of the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City that killed 168 people was completed with only one tonne of ammonium nitrate."

"As at other times in our history, we are a target because of who we are and how we live, our society, our diversity and our values - values such as freedom, democracy and the rule of law - the values that make Canada great, values that Canadians cherish."

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1149372193732&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154

Funny. But I could swear that I have heard that before. Oh well, must just be me.

Jun. 4, 2006. 01:00 AM
THOMAS WALKOM
NATIONAL COLUMNIST

.. That's the implication from the evidence shown to reporters yesterday: five pairs of boots in camouflage drab, six flashlights, one set of walkie-talkies, one voltmeter, one knife, eight D-cell batteries, a cellphone, a circuit board, a computer hard drive, one barbecue grill, one set of tongs suitable for turning hot dogs, a wooden door with 21 marks on it and a 9-mm handgun.

Or it is possible that the only thing that these bits of evidence prove is that a group of young men went somewhere where they tramped around in big boots, cooked on barbecues, played soldier and generally acted like jerks — which young men are occasionally wont to do.

The three tonnes of ammonium nitrate allegedly purchased was, as McDonell said, three times the amount used in the Oklahoma terror bombing of 1995.

But, as he also said, farmers routinely buy three tonnes of ammonium nitrate "every day." They use it for fertilizer, not bombs ..

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1149371435812&call_pageid=968332188492

Amazing...

can you imagine being so pathetic that you have to be "inspired by" al qaeda?

what's the matter w. people?

was there even going to be a point to these attacks or was it going to be a senseless thing just to prove they can get on teevee like timothy mcveigh?

it just sounds all so idiotic

MISSISSAUGA -- Snipers were already in position on nearby rooftops on Periwinkle Cres. as an unwitting Raza Farooq prepared to begin his Koran lesson.

Moments later, the 18-year-old was face down on the floor as tactical police simultaneously smashed through front and back doors in the Friday night raid.

<snip>

His brothers-in-law and their friends are interested in politics and are angry with the Canadian government for aligning itself with the U.S. war on terror, particularly over Iraq.

But they would never hurt anyone and never voiced extremist views or sympathy for Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida terror outfit, he said.

<snip>

More: http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Law/2006/06/04/1614124-sun.html

Massive sweep | Investigators controlled the sale and transport of three tonnes of ammonium nitrate in an undercover probe of an alleged homegrown terrorist cell
Police say they moved in quickly to avert attacks in southern Ontario

The delivery of three tonnes of ammonium nitrate to a group suspected of plotting terrorist attacks in southern Ontario was part of an undercover police sting operation, the Toronto Star has learned.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1149371435834&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154

And that's how the Mounties got their man.

that part bothered me, where they got it. Thanks for this link.

If the supplier contacted the RCMP after an order was placed I see nothing wrong about giving enough to rope to these guys to hang themselves.

TORONTO - A group of Canadian residents arrested in coordinated raids across the Toronto area for “terrorism-related offenses” had planned to blow up targets around southern Ontario, Canadian police said on Saturday.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10663276/

Harper hoodlums...fucking assholes...they are now importing political terrorisms in Canada. Fucking rightwing twats.


on edit: this newly elected Harper government is making hot around the colar

I really can't tell what you're blaming the Harper government for. I can tell you're not happy with it, reading between the offensive language. Beyond that, I'm not sure what your point is.

THIS NEWLY ELECTED HARPER GOVERNMENT IS IMPORTING TERROR, FOR POLITICAL REASONS....HE HAS NOW EVEN TOLD THE LOCAL MEDIA TO NOT ASK QUESTIONS, OR TO BE CALLED BY HIM AS "NEXT MONICA"....

I am in no way a Harper supporter. Jack's my man. However, from the Toronto Star, in a related story...


It has NOTHING to do with Harper as PM. The investigation started 2 years ago.

First off, this is an operation that has been ongoing for two years. Harper has been in for a few months. As well, if you ACTUALLY think a bunch of farmers and hics thought up a plot like this, you're dumb as a sack of hammers.
Thirdly, Harper has not told anyone not to ask questions...now you're just making shit up.

Somebody wanted to blow up Canada?

:think:

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1149329598732&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154

Gettin hauled off to the slammer!

1. Fahim Ahmad, 21, Toronto;
2. Zakaria Amara, 20, Mississauga, Ont.;
3. Asad Ansari, 21, Mississauga;
4. Shareef Abdelhaleen, 30, Mississauga;
5. Qayyum Abdul Jamal, 43, Mississauga;
6. Mohammed Dirie, 22, Kingston, Ont.;
7. Yasim Abdi Mohamed, 24, Kingston;
8. Jahmaal James, 23, Toronto;
9. Amin Mohamed Durrani, 19, Toronto;
10. Steven Vikash Chand alias Abdul Shakur, 25, Toronto;
11. Ahmad Mustafa Ghany, 21, Mississauga;
12. Saad Khalid, 19, of Eclipse Avenue, Mississauga.


http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1149329598732&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154


The names of the juveniles involved have not been released yet.

makes him look more like he's got a 666 branded on him somewhere.

:scared:

(crossing self nervously)

I'd like to think that there isn't a causal relationship between PM Harper and the lighting of the "Terra! Terra! Terra!" fuse in Canada...but it makes one wonder.

The US could certainly use more troops in Iraq, and possibly for Iran. English-speaking troops are probably preferred.

Wonder if this will be used to try and scare the Canadians into involvement in Iraq? (They're already in Afghanistan.)

My husband is working in Toronto at present, he's a Canadian citizen. He was living here during 911. I wonder what he has to say about the tenor on the street after today's announcement. I'll have to find out, I'm curious as to how this plays up north.

I'm a canuck and no one despises Harper more than I however this nothing to do with him and everything to do with Islamist Extremism. This investigation began 2 years ago.


"The chain of events began two years ago, sparked by local teenagers roving through Internet sites, reading and espousing anti-Western sentiments and vowing to attack at home, in the name of oppressed Muslims here and abroad.

Their words were sometimes encrypted, the Internet sites where they communicated allegedly restricted by passwords, but Canadian spies back in 2004 were reading them. And as the youths' words turned into actions, they began watching them."



http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1149285034044&call_pageid=976163513378&col=969048863474

...is that what happened, whatever it was, concerns me because I wonder if Harper will use this as a means to offer more military assistance to Bush.

Since you're in Canada, perhaps you can enlighten me on how gung-ho Harper is regarding Washington's war. Thank you.

Didn't mean to offend.

How you know all this!

In black and white, for all to see.

And, unlike newspapers from all other countries, Canadian newspapers never ever print an untruth.

So you see there is no need for scepticism.

Canadian Muslims are that Canada has allowed same sex marriage. I'm sure this comfirms in the minds of extremists that Canada is an abomination and ought to be destroyed.

Government in power

If this turns out to be true, you're better off with these people off your streets. I'm not saying it is true, I don't know, but it is certainly true that terrorists exist in the world and there's no reason to think Canada is immune.

but this terra fatigue thing leaves me feeling very cynical and philosphical. I'm not going to stop traveling because of this, and I'll live where I want to thank you.

I blame Bu$hler entirely for inflamming already bad situations, and causing them to spread like a cancer around the world.

But there is a danger in dismissing this stuff reflexively, too, which I thought I was seeing in this thread.

That sounds like a pretty broad statement - i.e. they probably didn't actually do much, just a lot of talking.

Since I've been scolded for not directing a reply to specific individuals and it's considered highly inappropriate to criticize remarks in the thread by replying to the original post, I'm wiping out what I wrote.

Self-censorship's all the rage here after all.

These allegations that even a right-wing government of *Canada* would "import terrorism for political purposes". You've got to be kidding me. No, I realize you're not, that's why it's downright embarassing.

Who the hell is this "you" you're talking to?

Look, it's bad enough Americans want to believe this stuff about their own country, but stop projecting it onto every other country just because the party in power isn't a socialist regime.

Kindly address this complaint directly to those you think have made such remarks. Most of the posts on this thread do not express this view.

You tarred us generally with the implication that we hold some objectionable opinion that we generally didn't express. So I called you on that fair and square.

Quit your whining, please. You've not been wronged.

Fine if you think I was out of line not liking the tone and content... but you weren't in the path of my comments until you placed yourself in front of them. Not much I could do but retract then.

That was objectionable. And it makes me wonder why you would even want to use unpopular opinions expressed by few to characterize us as a group.

Look at post #23 how it's "so convenient" that these arrests take place, implying that they are false as are the cases they are based on, mere inventions to politically aid the police and the Canadian government. I see no justification for your saying these opinions are unpopular.

I'd normally consider what I did to be inappropriate too but, what do people think Canada is? What justification is there for lumping it into all the grand conspiracies people regularly raise regarding American and British governments? How many Bloody Sundays and My Lais has Canada waged? The popular conclusion is it *must* be a set-up. Yeah, well, maybe not.

No, you weren't saying this, but I'm not seeing you saying anything to the people that are. Just to me. Fine, I don't mean to prolong this. I was wrong, but if you take that as saying they're right, you're taking the wrong lesson.

Look at post #23 how it's "so convenient" that these arrests take place, implying that they are false as are the cases they are based on, mere inventions to politically aid the police and the Canadian government. I see no justification for your saying these opinions are unpopular.

Uh, how about the fact that most of us aren't advocating this view?

I'd normally consider what I did to be inappropriate too but, what do people think Canada is? What justification is there for lumping it into all the grand conspiracies people regularly raise regarding American and British governments? How many Bloody Sundays and My Lais has Canada waged? The popular conclusion is it *must* be a set-up. Yeah, well, maybe not.

No, that's not the "popular conclusion". You really don't get to use a minority view to characterize the thinking of the majority who have not expressed this opinion.

No, you weren't saying this, but I'm not seeing you saying anything to the people that are. Just to me. Fine, I don't mean to prolong this. I was wrong, but if you take that as saying they're right, you're taking the wrong lesson.

Conspiracy theories rarely interest me enough to comment on them, and others were already posting good arguments against this one any case. But I certainly did reply to you, because I have no intention of letting myself be smeared with some kind of 'group guilt' just because a handful of people have their tinfoil hats on a bit too tight.

I've said time and time again I wasn't referring to you and AM NOT referring to you, end of story. I'm done with this. If you're still outraged, it's because you are seeking outrage out. I'm sorry I offended you. Other people have offended me, but well, it's not like you care, do you.

There you go. That's another smear.

I've said time and time again I wasn't referring to you and AM NOT referring to you, end of story. I'm done with this. If you're still outraged, it's because you are seeking outrage out. I'm sorry I offended you. Other people have offended me, but well, it's not like you care, do you.

The problem is that you keep making these nasty little accusations. And when you get called on it, you offer up something that would resemble an apology -- except that it comes packaged with a touch of self-pity, some passive-aggression, and more accusations.

And I'm wondering what inspires you to do this.

set up shop over the border and sneak in. Maybe Toronto was just a test run. Who knows how many are setting up shop in Mexico... of course they'll have to learn some spanish to blend in.

related Star story



Homegrown, yes I can see that, but I would add that it all seems to be downstream of the decision to invade Iraq and the resulting radicalisation of some of the Muslim world.

One of the main targets mentioned is the office of CSIS (Canadian Security and Intelligence Service) in Toronto. No word of any attempt to attack Buffalo. Smuggling 3 metric tonnes of ammonium nitrate across the border can't be easy.

co-operated with each other. Remember all the kerfuffle about the CIA and the FBI and their non co-operation?

Coordinated intelligence gathering, sound police work and GOOD TIMING.

NOT with armies, bombs, torture and prison camps.

together than the US agencies (which wouldn't be too hard based on what we have learned about the various US agencies in our gov't) and I agree that armies, bombs, torture and prison camps is NOT the way to fight terrorism and radical extremists!

However, all that said, I can't help but having a nagging feeling right now after hearing about this "breaking story" about a foiled terror plot in Canada, that what really is going to be coming next is how and why the US/Canadian border needs more security....And I've been expecting that this was coming, just not so soon....

Wanna bet? :eyes:

CSIS deputy director goes in front of some Senators on Monday, tells them that any youth from immigrant background, or even those born here that blend well into society, that seem well assimilated (almost any youth at this point) is a terror suspect then they bust people on Friday and on Saturday, Harper is already in the Canadian War Museum (not improvised, scheduled) talking to a bunch of new recruits and their families how the fight against terrorism must go on...

EXACTLY!

Instead of blaming the current Canadian government or even Bush, how about directing some anger at the actual people who were conspiring to blow up innocent civilians!

There are crazies who want to kill all Westerners (that includes me and you) because we allow women's ankles to be seen on television. It doesn't matter who is in charge in America, or Canada, or Andorra, for that matter. We are at war with religious fanatics, whether they are Muslims or Christians.

The ranting present in this thread makes all DUers look bad.

Without denying that _maybe_ some people are really after us, I demand the results of this trial before jumping to any conclusions. We know alot of Gitmo detainees got framed in fact.



To whom ?

I cant trust these people either but let us wait some time for some details to come in before thinking the c word.

If this is somehow a self inflicted wound make em pay! But for now just wait please.

The Bush Cabal apologists on this *so-called* liberal board are pretty numerous, eh?

:)

do you have some insecticide I could borrow?

We might have to set off one of them there "bombs" that saturates the entire dwelling.

:crazy:

too many innocents will get hit too....

There you go again. It seems that half your posts at DU have to do with purging or wiping out people who don't see absolutely eye to eye with you. The bubble you live in must make Bush's seem pretty insignificant.

I'm purging people from DU? Wow... no kidding. I didn't think I was that significant. Seems like somebody else is living in a bubble... maybe you should take a look at yourself instead.

are pretty numerous, too.

When you attack the poster and not the post you say to me that you don't have any large-caliber ammo.

How about a discussion instead of a purge?

Peace.

Or maybe people who don't think absolutely the same that you do? Can you tell the difference?

Like blaming a possible terrorist strike on the Canadian government or any Western government. How about people supplying some evidence for this crap before posting?

To whom do these posts make us look bad? Anyone who comes here for a progressive forum, sees this paranoid shit, turns off their computer, and feels an overwhelming need to shower.

that got Menenzez shot on the London Underground (the innocent Brazilian guy).

If you've followed the news cycle these last few years there have been so many "big" arrests and killings that later turn out to be a lot different from how they were originally portrayed. Also the links to domestic intelligence services/informers (e.g. in 9/11, Madrid bombing, 7/7) usually come out later but never hit the MSM.

discourse at DU. It has nothing to do with police foul-ups. You are conflating things

but my policy is not to take initial news reports at face value when it involves the GWOT. There's usually more to the story than the authorities want to reveal.

First, setting aside the "presumed innocent" axiom for a moment, the actual people who are alleged to have been conspiring to blow up civilians are blameworthy for precisely that. I'm not seeing any cries for premature clemency on this thread. Let the due process of law take its course.

However, when politicians and pundits jump all over these arrests to make shameless propaganda for their pet causes and overweening egos, they too are blameworthy. Like the terrorists they claim to oppose, these bloviators profit and gain from fear of instability in the general population, at the expense of innocent civilians locally as well as in faraway lands. And, unlike the terrorists who conspire to kill, they will never be held accountable for their actions.

I see plenty of posts of people who are saying it is all a set-up by Canada's government. Therefor, they are suggesting that these people are innocent.

People, of course, should be presumed innocent before being found guilty. Perhaps all these people are innocent. My concern was that people are blaming Canada's government and the U.S. government without a lick of evidence, and generally dismissing the danger of terrorism entirely. And its this kind of thing that is part of the reason why the left doesn't win a more broad base of supporters.

Quite the opposite, in fact. The people who are claiming the Canadian gov't conspired to falsely incriminate the suspects could only be construed as asking for EXONERATION, insofar as the accused are implicitly innocent and the charges trumped-up. A plea for CLEMENCY, on the other hand, includes at least a tacit admission of guilt. If you see any posts saying things like, "Yeah, so these guys wanted to blow up Ontario but let's be merciful here, because, after all, who doesn't want to blow up Ontario?" please let me know.

This may seem like a subtle distinction to some people, but it's an important one.

Furthermore, using the arrests (not convictions, mind you) of these suspects to feather one's political nest is itself reprehensible, and flies in the face of the very presumption of innocence, which we apparently agree should be the normative starting point for a just society. Suppose these people were to be acquitted, what then? Could they expect fair treatment from a society which has already allocated them the role of convenient scapegoats to be sacrificed upon the altar of PM Harper's political career?

If "the left" is losing support here, it's because political opportunists manipulate the media to portray proponnents of civil liberties and due process as pro-terrorism.

Toronto police Chief Bill Blair called on both Muslims and non-Muslims alike to let cooler heads prevail Sunday after 17 people were arrested in connection with what authorities say was a plan to stage a massive terrorist attack.

The 17 suspects who were arrested and charged on Friday, men and youths alike, were allegedly acting not out of faith, but a different ideology of hatred, Blair told a gathering of Muslim leaders.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1149420427711&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154

Mosque vandalized after bomb-plot sweep
Last Updated Sun, 04 Jun 2006 13:55:07 EDT
CBC News

The vandalizing of a Toronto mosque on the weekend could be part of a reaction against Islam after police arrested 17 Muslim men and youth in southern Ontario amid accusations of an al-Qaeda-inspired bombing plot, an imam says.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/06/04/mosque-vandalized.html

Words can convey a lot of meaning.

as pointed out here:

"One Muslim leader suggested the arrests may have been timed to coincide with upcoming Supreme Court of Canada hearings into the constitutionality of security certificates, which allow the authorities to indefinitely detain, without charge, anyone considered a threat to national security."

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=581810af-e1a4-48ca-a2dd-5a0af54a146b&k=89294&p=2

Also, it is merely coincidental CSIS and other bodies were recently in the news with warnings, etc, and then, what do ya know, a major arrest.

The investigation may have started before Harper was installed but the timing of the arrests may be tied to him, imo.

I am waiting for more facts to come out before I buy everything that is being said about this.

They are asking for exoneration instead of clemency......

Now that we have definitions out of the way, let's get to your main points:

"Furthermore, using the arrests (not convictions, mind you) of these suspects to feather one's political nest is itself reprehensible, and flies in the face of the very presumption of innocence, which we apparently agree should be the normative starting point for a just society."

Where is the evidence for any of this? We have to be on the look-out for police and political corruption, but the automatic discrediting of government when that government appears to be trying its best to protect its people from terrorism, feeds into stereotypes about the left, and worse, borders on self-hatred.

"Suppose these people were to be acquitted, what then? Could they expect fair treatment from a society which has already allocated them the role of convenient scapegoats to be sacrificed upon the altar of PM Harper's political career?"

If these people are found to be innocent, then they will go back to their communities and their lives. If they are discriminated against on the job or elsewhere, they have recourse to the legal system themselves. People who are accused of everything from drug possession to sex crimes and then found innocent find life difficult after wards, no matter what nation they happen to reside in. It is an unfortunate fact of life, but it would not be isolated to these individuals.

And again, you blame Harper. Any evidence for this?

"If "the left" is losing support here, it's because political opportunists manipulate the media to portray proponents of civil liberties and due process as pro-terrorism."

We live in a muti-causal world. The left has a problem with being misrepresented, but some of those misrepresentations don't appear out of air. A very small minority of supposed leftists fuel the fire with wacko conspiracies that seem to give terrorists all the benefit of the doubt, and their own countries none.

Does this mean that since the US is harboring terrorists, Canada has justification to attack the US and remove Bush from office?:evilgrin:

Poor Canada - opposed the Iraq war, opposed Bush's go it alone policy, opposed much of Bush's terror talk and actions....and still some of their own Muslim citizens wish to attack them.

Now how can this be?

Could it be that Islamists aren't exclusively driven by what many here assume motivates them? Could it be that some Muslims in Canada want to attack their adopted country simply because it is too unIslamic? Perhaps Muslims in Canada aren't kidding when they talk of their desire to adopt Shari'a law even in Canada? Yes, two legal systems is a great idea right? How dare Canadians find themselves uneasy with such a notion.

Could it possibly be that while most Muslims are indeed "moderate", Islam just might not be a moderate religion? Could it be that too may of the majority moderate Muslim populations in any society will unfortunantly sympathize more with their radicals than the very Westerners they live amongst? Maybe there is something spelled out quite clearly in Islamic texts that commands that very thing?

Why Canada? Now let the process of excusing these alleged terrorists begin. I am sure many people can find ways to blame Harper, blame Canadians for some past misdeed, blame the Western World, etc, etc.

See post #71 above, and here's the direct link--

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2320491&mesg_id=2321800

Great job done by the Canadian authorities.

Hope they pick up all these Islamists nut.

:eyes:

..we surely disagree here, but I thought it would be amusing to respond that way.

Cheers ;)

for REAL is much less than it appeared to, because they were only "able" to get the materials they needed through a sting operation.

they were only "able" to get the materials they needed through a sting operation.

That is NOT what the article you linked to in your previous post said.

In point of fact, they were NOT able to get the materials they needed because of a sting.

The sting involved, as they usually do, letting them THINK they were getting the materials they wanted -- but making sure they didn't actually get it.

The police / intelligence services did NOT initiate the transaction, and did NOT participate in the transaction, other than to take over the handling of it once it had been initiated by the suspects.

From the article:

The RCMP said yesterday that after investigating the alleged homegrown terrorist cell for months, they had to move quickly Friday night to arrest 12 men and five youths before the group could launch a bomb attack on Canadian soil.

Sources say investigators who had learned of the group's alleged plan to build a bomb were controlling the sale and transport of the massive amount of fertilizer, a key component in creating explosives. Once the deal was done, the RCMP-led anti-terrorism task force moved in for the arrests.

The RCMP were NOT parties to the purchase-sale of fertilizer transaction. They were MONITORING the group and discovered what they were planning, and intervened, to control the transaction, to PREVENT the transaction from being completed with real fertilizer.

In this kind of "sting", the police allow the suspects to continue their activities and the police do not get involved, but the police "sting" the suspects by changing an important factor in the equation: letting them buy something they think is fertilizer (or drugs, or stolen cars ...) when it isn't. This doesn't change the nature of the criminal activity, e.g. conspiring to blow something up. It just removes the ability to carry it out.

In this case, the police did intervene earlier than in some others. They did not just allow the transaction to run its course, it seems, and stop it at the last minute by substituting something else for the intended subject of the purchase; they substituted themselves for the fertilizer dealer for the purpose of controlling dealings with the suspects. The details will indeed be interesting to learn, but it does not seem that the police/intelligence services incited or encouraged the suspects to engage in the transaction in any way.

Another kind of sting involves letting someone approach someone whom they think is a drug dealer or prostitute or money launderer (or in the case a fertilizer dealer ...), but who is really a police agent, and letting him/her attempt to engage in a criminal transaction -- but that was NOT the case here, at least as far as we know.

I certainly reject the yammering you were initially responding to, about how maybe Islam is this and maybe Islam is that, but rejecting one nonsense does not mean having to believe another.

I guess I'll take my turn at baseless speculation, while I'm here.

It seems to me that this group of disaffected youth, loony stupid people, or whatever they turn out to be, was being monitored in a rather routine way by police/intelligence services for quite some time. Such surveillance can serve a number of purposes. It can forewarn of activities the individuals themselves are planning to undertake, but it can also provide leads to more interesting individuals and organizations that they may be in contact with.

I'll bet that one day some investigator or wiretap monitor was listening away, or reading away on his/her computer monitor, and all of a sudden sees fertilizer! bomb! behead! ... more likely, of course, not all at once. And thinks Whoa! what have we here?? They've been keeping an eye on these goofs for quite some time, not expecting them to actually do anything but ramble and rant on line and in their living rooms (and maybe engage in a little low-level freedomfighter-wannabe firearms possession and "training"), and here they've come up with a plan.

So then the surveillance starts in earnest, and the transaction they are attempting to carry out is identified and the police intervene with the supplier, and take over the handling of the transaction. And when the time comes to complete it, they "sting" the suspects by delivering cow manure instead of ammonium nitrate, and bust 'em.

And who are "they"? Goofs, I'm pretty convinced. Dissafected youth, loony stupid people (being a math whiz doesn't make one all-round clever), wannabes.

The idea that the RCMP and CSIS have broken some big-time terrorist ring operating in Canada, which is indeed how it was first made to appear, is nuts.

And yes, if my speculation is correct, it was inappropriate to make a big media hoo-hah about this investigation such as would lead some people to suspect that we have genuine al Qaeda-type terrorists operating on Canadian soil, or that international terrorism has turned its gaze to Canada. That does not appear to be so -- and to be fair, the police/intelligence services did make it plain that these were Canadians planning this, not a branch plant of al Qaeda.

But the thing is, nobody needs to be a big-time terrorist to blow up a building.

From a 2002 Supreme Court of Canada decision:

http://www.canlii.org/ca/cas/scc/2000/2000scc58.html

The accused has a lengthy history of mental illness and of dangerous handling of explosives. He also has a long history of treatment, and received out-patient psychiatric treatment as a requirement of a probation order in force against him between 1993 and 1996 because of an incident where he had taken a firearm to work with the intent of shooting a co-worker, for which he received a conditional discharge, three years' probation, and a 10-year firearms prohibition. In 1998 the accused pleaded guilty to unlawful possession of an explosive substance and to possession of a weapon for a purpose dangerous to the public peace, contrary to ss. 100(12) and 87 of the Criminal Code. The police had found in the accused's vehicle and in his apartment an arsenal capable of causing mass destruction to property, death and serious injury to persons in the area.

In the <appellant>'s vehicle was a suicide bomb. The only requirement for the device to deploy was the movement of the switch by the operator or victim. In the car were explosive substances, including two 500 ml bottles containing nitro-methane and picric acid, chemicals, which are extremely unstable in nature. Also located in the vehicle was a duffle bag with a container of 37% formaldehyde; 500 ml of sodium nitrate; 500 grams of sulphuric acid; 500 ml of lead nitrate; and 500 ml of picric acid; and 150 ml of glycerine and various other chemicals. The chemicals found in the vehicle have capability on their own, or in combination, to form highly explosive substances and could have been used to create an arsenal of devices.

Similar chemicals were located inside the residence, including two 80 lb bags of ammonia nitrate and two pipe bombs. Three detonators were seized including one that had been exploded.

The bomb inside the vehicle, if detonated, would have destroyed the vehicle and killed the person activating the device. The debris would have caused damage to cars, buildings and
injured anyone within a 75 metre radius. The two 80 lb bags of ammonia nitrate, if mixed with fuel oil and detonated in the <appellant>'s suite, would have damaged the suites two to three floors above and two to three on either side, as well as cars parked along the street and houses across the street. Anyone in the area would be killed or seriously injured.

If they had been able to complete their transaction and had actually done what they were planning (not including beheading Harper; for the love of mike, how stoopid can some people be?) they could have caused quite horrible death and destruction.

By the way, it was 3 tonnes of the stuff in this case, not tons; that's about 3.3 tons. Just for anyone curious.

muslims aren't more intrinsically violent nor do they have some kind of secret instruction to all stick together no matter what. That's exactly the same kind of thing that anti-semites said about the Jews in the early 20th century.

However, it is a vicious circle. The "shock and awe" + Abu Ghraib + Gitmo + all the other atrocities has made many muslims very angry. So more fundamentalists emerge and
the local population gets more scared of them. They then feel like no one likes them
so they get more alienated so more people in the host population get prejudiced against them etc etc.

However, as for the war on terror/against tyranny/for democracy being real - gimme a break. The West's biggest allies in the Middle-East are all absolute islamic monarchies. The war on terror crap is just used to divide up their own populations and keep them scared and fighting people who look similar (like the Iraqis).

Good start.

Let's not track and arrest Islamic radicals, how about we instead sit around and blame ourselves.

The law if the law. You don't like your governments policy? Vote against it. That doesn't excuse people who plan to commit terrorit acts on the very people they live amongst.

"muslims aren't more intrinsically violent nor do they have some kind of secret instruction to all stick together no matter what."

I'm sorry, I'm not quite so sure of that. There may just be something to the fact that Muslims are not supposed to side with an infidel over another Muslim.

Shock and Awe, Abu Ghraib and Gitmo have very little to do with the activities of Islamic radicals. Having lived in Thailand, I can tell you that the Islamic murder of Bhuddist monks, policepersons, teachers, etc has zero to do with that. Yes that is what is happening. It is getting worse by the week, and it has absolutely nothing to do with any of the things you reference.

Did not Canada oppose the war in Iraq? What exactly makes Canada of all places deserving of Islamists terror strikes?

The answer is simple. In the eyes of Islamists, they are decadent and unIslamic. That is enough to make Canadians worthy of slaughter.

The fact that so many progressives close their eyes to this stuff is astonishing. Religious fanaticism is gleefully pointed out when it comes to pale skin Westerners. But apparently, in the eyes of many progressives, we must make excuses for any "brown" person who adopts such fundamentalist ideology.

"Dont go down that road"

So you assume I am absolutely wrong when I ask if it is possible that perhaps, even though most Muslims are infact "moderate" in their behavior, that maybe, just maybe, Islam is not a moderate religion?

Let me ask you something. Why is it a book/movie such as The Da Vinci Code comes out, a story that rejects the widely accepted story of Christ, and yet we don't see Christians/Catholics rioting in the street?

Yet, you can't even draw a cartoon mentioning "The Prophet" without tens of thousands of Muslims marching, rioting and burning things. Not to mention Islamic governments arresting cartoonists who even reference the cartoon.

Are you so sure Islam, even if you happen to be Muslim, is a religion no different than the rest?

I will say again. I believe most, even the overwhelming majority of Muslims, are indeed "moderate" - but maybe Islam isn't really a "moderate" religion.

Kudo's go to the Canadian authorities on these arrests. Hope to see more of this from Canada, the US and the rest of the modern world.

1) Are there muslims extremists who despise liberal values?

Yes there are, I agree with you on that.

2) Are they a threat to the entire Western civilisation?

No, they're not. They're manipulated and facilitated for political gain in the West (primarily US and UK). Read David Ray Griffin's "New Pearl Harbor" and British involvement in the IRA and the information starting to come out about 7/7. Look at
B*shco support of regimes, financiers and businesses connected to 9/11 directly and indirectly.

3) Are muslims more violent than anyone else? Yes, some of them are violent just like the rest of us. Did they kill 30,000,000 in WWII? No, Europeans did. Did they kill 100,000's in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Did they kill 1,000,000 in Rwanda. No, Christians did. Were they responsible for the killing of 30-100,000 innocents in Iraq? No, good christian Americans (mostly) did. Are they responsible for all the kidnappings and killings in South America? Are muslims responsible for the 30,000 gun homicides in the US every year? Are they responsible for the mafia violence in Russia? etc. etc. No. The world's a violent place. One in six people is a muslim so they're gonna commit a lot violence but they are no better or worse than anyone else.

19 hijackers (funded and facilitated by B*shco allies) kill 3,000 people on American soil.

So B*shco invade Iraq (which had nothing to do with 9/11) leading to the slaughter of 30,000 civilians.

Where's the moral highground now?

I could have sworn I was still on Democratic Underground...

...so you better put your flamesuit on now.

He goes on about how this is a "Homegrown terrorist group" then start slamming Canadian immigration policy... fucking unreal.

How is it Canada is able to stymie these Islamist attacks WITHOUT having a Patriot Act?

gullible, gullible, gullible

How many believe in the 'WAR ON TERRA!!"?

How many believe the Goverment Tells the Truth??

How many believe 9/11 was caused by 19 AAArabs with box cutters??

How many are terrified of the ISLAMOFASCIST JIHAD??

-----------------

We are all trapped in the grand deception. For endless war. For endless corporatist control.

But it is coming to global conflict and it ain't between the forces of Islamic radicalism versus the truth and justice of the american way. Cause there ain't no goddamn truth and justice in the American way. Not anymore. The Canadians and the American police and media powers wanna make a big deal out of this to keep the -- echo -- 'WAR ON TERRA' --echo-- up in everyone's consciousness. Bull shit.

...lets just let Muslim radicals do whatever the hell they want. God forbid we actually track them down and arrest them. Damn media. How dare they report what happened.

And when Islamists threaten to attack us, how's bout' we all throw a pity party about how it's all somehow our own fault. We can all point the finger at corporations while Islamic fanatics laugh at our inability to stop them.

"How many believe in the 'WAR ON TERRA!'?"

I sure don't. I do believe we are part of war against Islamic fanaticism though.

"How many believe the Goverment Tells the Truth??"

All governments lie and they ALWAYS will. Left wing, right wing - all governments lie. Period.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't go after would be thugs, killers, terrorists or criminals of any particular stripe.

"How many believe 9/11 was caused by 19 AAArabs with box cutters??"

19 Islamic hijackers with box cutters did infact perpetrate the actual 9-11 attack.

"How many are terrified of the ISLAMOFASCIST JIHAD??"

Terrified? No. Responsible enough to realize they do pose and threat and we should make every effort to root it out and stop it? Yes.

Congrats go to the Canadian authorities on this one.

Along with your other post upthread, too.

It confounds me that progressives don't want to condemn the fundamentalist fringe of Islam that wishes to blow people up. What possible reason is there for not calling this what it is: murder of innocents in the name of religious intolerance?

What could be less progressive than fundies with bombs?

Peace.

ignoring the fact that these are fundamentalist extremists. They also ignore the fact that Muslims as well as Christian fundamentalists have strenuously opposed same sex marriage in Canada and they have successfully lobbied Harper to reopen the debate in Canada.

TImothy McVeigh was a white boy. I don't care about what religion or color someone is, I do care about their fundamentatlist extremismness.

no matter who expouses it.

"Usually" religious, not always.

From dictionary.com:
un·da·men·tal·ism Audio pronunciation of "fundamentalist" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fnd-mntl-zm)
n.

1. A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.
2.
1. often Fundamentalism An organized, militant Evangelical movement originating in the United States in the late 19th and early 20th century in opposition to Protestant Liberalism and secularism, insisting on the inerrancy of Scripture.
2. Adherence to the theology of this movement.

Which rules out 'atheist', and I don't think you can say a definite statement of "I do believe in a God" makes him agnostic either. But you might say he's not a member of a particular religion, though he did see a Catholic priest before his execution:

In an article by United Kingdom’s “The Guardian” about McVeigh’s execution:

“In his letter, McVeigh said he was an agnostic but that he would "improvise, adapt and overcome", if it turned out there was an afterlife. "If I'm going to hell," he wrote, "I'm gonna have a lot of company." His body is to be cremated and his ashes scattered in a secret location.”

In an statement by Lou Michel during a cyber interview with CNN. Lou Michel spent hours interviewing McVeigh in writing a book titled, “American Terrorist: Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing”.

Lou Michel: McVeigh is agnostic. He doesn't believe in God, but he won't rule out the possibility. I asked him, ‘What if there is a heaven and hell?’

He said that once he crosses over the line from life to death, if there is something on the other side, he will -- and this is using his military jargon – ‘adapt, improvise, and overcome.’ Death to him is all part of the adventure.”

"What possible reason is there for not calling this what it is: murder of innocents in the name of religious intolerance?"

There actually are a distubing number people who call themselves progressives whom actually believe that NO Western person (white western people in particular) is really ever innocent. For most Americans, someone like Ward "little Eichman's" Churchill is a clown, but there are some people who have carved out a home on the left who do infact believe that every Westerner is guilty of oppressing "brown" people - therefore all minorities (including Muslims) should reflexively be excused for virtually any barbarous action or plot.

It is sad, but there really are people that sympathize with such views.

What a flurry of straw. Choking, I am.

It confounds me that progressives don't want to condemn the fundamentalist fringe of Islam that wishes to blow people up. What possible reason is there for not calling this what it is: murder of innocents in the name of religious intolerance?

Reasons that are also behind our choice not to execute teenagers convicted of murder ... that sort of thing.

Quite a few of the individuals arrested in this incident are KIDS. (And by the way, it's not that their names have not been released yet -- their names will not be released, unless something very unusual happens, e.g. they may be of an age where their charges could be transferred to adult court if the criteria, which are more stringent in Canada than in the US, although recently weakened, were met. The names of young offenders, or of anyone associated with them whose name would identify them, e.g. parents, are NOT released in Canada.)

With respect to the young people in this case, in particular, I would guess that their "fundamentalism" and "intolerance" derives just as much from factors like marginalization in Canadian society as it does from any genuine religious impulse, or even genuine political analysis. I would guess that they have been manipulated from many sides, and were ripe for the picking for many reasons.

Rather than "murder of innocents in the name of religious intolerance", in the case of the underage individuals, I wouldn't be surprised to find a case of exploitation of children for gain, whether the gain is ideological or anything else. Anybody remember the Khadr family?

The use of children to further adult objectives, even where those objectives are supposedly in children's interests, is reprehensible.

As to whether any of this ever really happened, and why it did if it did, I have formed no particular opinion at present. I don't know enough, quite simply. So I won't be yammering about either right-wing conspiracies to intimidate the population or righteous indignation at Canadian involvement in Afghanistan / hatred of us for our freedoms. I tend to think that individuals have complex and multiple reasons of their own for what they do, and that there are often complex and multiple loci of responsibility for things that happen.

Bullshit.

1. Islamofascism is way overplayed. And our so-called war is simply the excuse to create the corporatist fascist empire. The best way to address fanatical islam is not by trying to invade and control the middle east. So you can achieve global hegemony. So you can deride with your little jokes but you are pointing your finger exactly where the corporatists want you to. You are soo easy. And I never said you don't protect yourselves. But you don't do it by becoming fascists yourselves.

2. And to say... 'Oh, all governments lie...." simply a demeaning, and meaningless reply. Some lie substantially more than others and our government is right up at the top. If you think otherwise... Well you have been in a cave, haven't you. Or are you simply gullible?

3. And your knowledge about 911 .... well, naive is hardly sufficient to describe your reply. Many, many of us now know differently. From Michael Ruppert to Dr. David Griffin. So you simply haven't a clue here as far as I - and many many others - are concerned. You wanna go on and believe 'islamofascism' caused 9/11 go ahead and believe the myth preprogrammed for you. Your belief does make a statement, however.

4. The Islamic fanatics pose a small threat compared to what our clandestine services and government have posed and continue to pose around the world. I'll wait and see if the investigation become sufficiently transparent to made an informed decision about these 'so-called' terrorists. Reasonable precautions are always in order but not the draconian, fascist responses the US government has used 911 as an excuse to implement.

So, no, I'm not terribly impressed with your reply. And I am not giving any kudos to the Canadians until the truth/facts come out... should they -ever- come out.

The people of the middle east including their more radical fringe (the ones the repukes like to call islamofascists) have very good reasons to hate the colonial powers from the west - and most especially the US and GB at this point in time. We created the bulk of that anger. If I were a Muslim - Persian or Arab, I would be fighting the US any way I could. Anywhere I could. And not because of our 'Freedoms' - as the repukes say. But because we have subjugated and murdered them one way or another for 80+ years - for their oil. And because the US intends to continue to do so up to and including nuking them. Yes, I would fight. Anyway I thought would work. And yes, I see terrorism as a threat. But it is trivial compared to what my country has done and intends to do. But because I am an American I feel the need to work towards cleaning my own house. I prefer to work, anyway I can think of, against the much greater terrorists. Those currently in the White House and Downing Street. And those who pull their strings.

drduffy, I applaud you. You as an American and I as a Canadian see our respective governments in much the same way. I am enraged by how our governments and their shadow governments (corporate internationalists who know only the $flag) manage to manipulate the public to think as they want it to think. I really do believe that by using plain common sense (that deep inner voice which we have allowed the whorish media to silence) we could readily sort through the lies and untruths. We can all read and follow leads and site chapter and verse of whatever source we want to shore up our arguments, but you can never read enough to get at the truth. Paying attention to one's inner voice and trying to look at things from the perspective of another human being in another land and for a moment (as drduffy suggests) "being" that person will do more to help us gain perspective than in reading all the literature available in the world today. Instead, we take the easy route and allow others to do our thinking for us--and that's why news is such a major industry--mega mega bucks are spent telling us how we shall think collectively. And hot damn, don't it work! And I say, in no way. In no way am I taking the Toronto Star article as fact. My instincts tell me that there is something fishy going on and I'll need time to sort it out.

P.S. For any Americans out there, keep an eye peeled for our next election. Will it be Harper and HIS neocons or will it be the liberal Liberals?? That's a joke. The Liberals now have one Dr. Michael Ignatieff in their court (talk is he will win the Liberal leadershipo). Well, if he does, we'll have a very well spoken, highly educated NEOCON leading the way. This is the same guy who is on record as favouring the invasion of Iraq, thinks it's a wonderful idea that the Canuck government is now going on the offensive in Afghanistan--and oh, just one more little tidbit--thinks that torture is a necessary evil. As someone else noted his written explanation is highly nuanced, but still the bottom line is that he's for it.

Now I wonder just how the Bush administration managed to make Canada see the world as he sees it. Or does anyone really believe that Harper and Ignatieff just coincidentally happened along at a time when their happening is soooo good for Bushco.

The fix is in

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Look at it this way, CSIS (Canada's CIA) once had a breifcase of top secret document stolen from the back seat of an un-locked car on young street in Toronto... not exactly the type capable of the kind of deception of which you speak.

AND WE CAN WORK OUT THE DELIVERY IMMEDIATELY!!

and we can send the directions for wrapping your homes...free!!

fly

Barrick Gold

do start by going to GREG PALASTS..GLOBALIZATION...START THERE..THEN COME BACK WE HAVE LOTS MORE FOR YOU!!

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=9832

snip:

Some people have lauded great progress in the exposure of illegal mining in DRC, particularly by the group Human Rights Watch (HRW), whose 2005 report “The Curse of Gold” exposed Ugandan officials and multi-national corporations smuggling gold through local rebel militias. The cited rebel groups were the Nationalist and Integrationist Front (FNI) and the People’s Armed Forces of Congo (FAPC). The western companies targeted by HRW were Anglo-Ashanti Gold, a company headquartered in South Africa, and Metalor, a Swedish firm. The HRW report failed to mention that Anglo-Ashanti is partnered with Anglo-American, owned by the Oppenheimer family and partnered with Canada-based Barrick Gold described below (3). London-based Anglo-American Plc. owns a 45% share in DeBeers, another Oppenheimer company that is infamous for its near monopoly of the international diamond industry (4). Sir Mark Moody-Stuart, a director of Anglo-American, is a director of Royal Dutch/Shell and a member of U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan’s Advisory Board (5). The report also suppressed the most damning evidence discovered by HRW researchers—that Anglo-Ashanti sent its top lawyers into eastern DRC to aid rebel militia leaders arrested there.

Several multi-national mining companies have rarely if ever been mentioned in any human rights report. One is Barrick Gold, who operates in the town of Watsa, northwest of the town of Bunia, located in the most violent corner of the Congo. The Ugandan People’s Defense Force (UPDF) controlled the mines intermittently during the war. Officials in Bunia claim that Barrick executives flew into the region, with UPDF and RPF (Rwanda Patriotic Front) escorts, to survey and inspect their mining interests (6).

George H.W. Bush served as a paid advisor for Barrick Gold. Barrick directors include: Brian Mulroney, former PM of Canada; Edward Neys, former U.S. ambassador to Canada and chairman of the private PR firm Burston-Marsteller; former U.S. Senator Howard Baker; J. Trevor Eyton, a member of the Canadian Senate; and Vernon Jordan, one of Bill Clinton’s lawyers (7).

Barrick Gold is one of the client companies of Andrew Young’s Goodworks International lobbying firm. Andrew Young is the former Mayor of Atlanta, and a key organizer of the U.S.-Uganda Friendship Council. Young was chosen by President Clinton to chair the Southern Africa Enterprise Development Fund in October 1994. Goodworks’ clients—or business partners in some cases—include Coke, Chevron-Texaco, Monsanto, and the governments of Angola and Nigeria (note weapons transfers from Nigeria cited below). Young is a director of Cox Communications and Archers Daniels Midland—the “supermarket to the world” and National Public Radio sponsor whose directors include Brian Mulroney (Barrick) and G. Allen Andreas, a member of the European Advisory Board of The Carlyle Group.

(sarcasm)

Quite the corporatist, isn't he?
Or is "sell-out" a more appropriate description?

One of the biggest scandals ever to happen here involved them.

they have the most despised neighbor in the world and they can't move!!!

<rant>
Right now, we're in the grip of some very powerful leaders and influential pundits who are claiming the ONLY way to deal with terrorism is through bombardment, invasion, and occupation. Furthermore, they maintain that the proper way to deal with suspects is warrantless arrest followed by indefinite and anonymous detainment. That way lies disaster.

We need credible and warranted arrests followed by fair and impartial trials to show that terrorism is indeed a crime that can be dealt with through the police, the courts, and the ordinary penal system. Without this, we will stretch the fabric of nominally-democratic societies to the point where it tears into a patchwork of naked tyranny and exported violence. These arrests, and, indeed, any terrorism arrests should be dealt with in the utmost seriousness -- not necessarily in the sense of harshness or secrecy, but rather as a grave and difficult test of our legal capacity to handle such crimes in a way that doesn't tear us apart.

The urge to instantly reverse the alleged conspiracy onto the accusers should be resisted as much as the urge to prematurely condemn the accused and theorize generally about their associates or beliefs. Both approaches minimize the importance of a process that we must rely upon as the best possible alternative to worse possible outcomes. Let us hope that the truth of events will be brought forth by what follows, rather than obscured and ignored.
</rant>

Why is it that these things always happen just when Bush is in real trouble with his 'war on terror'? Just when the world is learning about the massacres in Iraq, all of a sudden Britain and Canada raid terror houses. Much later on we will learn they have the wrong people etc. Look at what happened in Lodi CA.

It just bothers me that the police supplied them with the 3 tons of ammonia fertilizer if they really thought they were a danger. The electronic equipment is what any electronics tech or electrician has at home. Glad I have an Irish name.

There's been some sort of awful shit going on in his presidency every day since the election in 2000. I tire of this line of reasoning.

Ok so many here distrust government. That doesnt mean we let people blow up civilians or property when we have credible intel. The government has many jobs and one of the main ones is to protect its citizens. If these guys got the fertilizer and blew up a building and the media finds out we knew about it most of the same idiots would be screaming.

To the poster that said that the government gave them fertilizer as a trap. BS they ordered it and the Canadian authorties swapped the nitrate with an inert powder then nabbed them at the delivery.

People need to get a grip!