Muslim women alienated by U.S. values push

because I've had the advantage of talking to a lot of women from that part of the world. We simply can't judge them by our standards.

Saudi women have told me that they've felt horribly cold and unprotected in the west, even though they sported Oxford or Ivy League educations and were quite sophisticated. The one thing they do focus on is the ability to drive, something they would consider a great convenience. They fully accept what we see as terrible restrictions on their personal liberty as part of life and a guarantee of safety.

We can't force these women to think as we do. It's unkind to try and it won't work. I turned down a job there because it would have been maddening to me as a single woman to have to bribe a male to escort me to the market to stock up on vegetables, for example. They seem to be grateful for the protection as well as the company.

Maybe listening to them would serve us better than preaching would.

"I turned down a job there because it would have been maddening to me as a single woman to have to bribe a male to escort me to the market to stock up on vegetables, for example."

I've had to coerce men into escorting me places for my safety within the US, there are places I wanted to go but didn't because I didn't feel safe alone (parks after dark), I was cautioned by fellow soldiers in Wisconsin once not to go to the NCO club, or if I did, go with a group and make sure there was someone walking with me through the crowd if I had to use the restroom.

Not having a problem at all with what you said, but the irony of the typical American view of Muslim oppression of women - while the same people refuse to acknowledge oppression of women in our own country, is emphasized by your statement.

Well color me shocked

/sarcasm

Sorry for any painful visual imagery that Subject line caused...

:rofl:

I think she was expecting a very submissive, non-questioning audience of Egyptian women. Maybe she was briefed from the 1919 State Department edition of The Aspiring Colonialist's Guide To Those Annoying But Easily Exploited Wog Countries.

The Egyptians literally hooted and jeered during the Bush Brown-Nosing part of her lecture. And according to the accounts I read, including some by female Egyptian journalists, it WAS a lecture. She was her usual arrogant, consdescending, talking-down-to-everyone self.

But she completely lost her audience when she ordered them to help in the War On Terriers by always co-operating with their brave, trustworthy intelligence services.

In this part of the world, "intelligence service" translates as "secret police"--those nice folks who come and disappear your family members in the middle of the night.

e.g., my Egyptian co-workers use exactly that phrase when we're joking about getting arrested. Just the other day, one of them said something to me like: "I will enjoy watching you explain that to the intelligence services."

This survey does make you wonder, though, doesn't it?

Peace.

political corruption fosters extremism. And make no mistake-the extremists have no problem persecuting moderate and progressive Muslims.

That's a new one.

I would prefer if we educated. Even in the united states we have groups that abuse their women in a fashion similar to the way Muslim women are abused. They face a life time of brainwashing and abuse at the hands of male relatives. In america it is illegal to slap women around and yet it still happens all the time and no doubt it is worse in a part of the world where abuse is sanctioned.

We should send all of these women scissors courtesy of Uncle Sam after a few hundred assholes get their dicks cut off in their sleep after beating their wives maybe they will modify their behavior.

like that and it earned her rounds of raspberrys here...

Women are abused here the same as they are in EVERY patricarchal society.

The women here will navigate the mindfield of feminism on their own. Frankly, they are doing a damn good job of it so far...

Facile arguments like 'women can't drive in Saudi Arabia' are on their face true... the reality is that most DON'T want to. Driving here is tedious and often dangerous. Why drive when your chauffeur can do it for you? Even in Saudi, those ladies who want to drive do so regardless. They take their cars to secret tracks and race. Also, they will take their land cruisers to the desert and cut loose.

To understand the status of feminism here, you have to understand the culture first.

practices are toxic. I have met Rahmatullah Hashemi in person and although I despise the taliban I was facinated by him. He was very open about what he thinks about women. I do not for a monent doubt that plenty if not the vast majority of women in islamic countries think life is fine. Guess what I know better and if they were educated they would too. Education (as Aaron Sorkin is fond of saying) is the silver bullet.

Well it looks like these 90 women agree with me. Why don't you try spinning the same tale to them.

PRAGUE, May 14, 2006 (RFE/RL) -- During the days of the Taliban, women were not allowed to study medicine at Kabul Medical University, not even under the cover of the all-encompassing burqas.

More than four years after the fall of the Taliban, however, the radiant faces of 90 women could be seen in the university's auditorium, speaking happily about their graduation. Some of them are now mothers, having had to interrupt their medical studies during the five years the Taliban held power in the capital.

Committed To Helping

Abeda Fahim says she now feels free and prosperous. Despite a lack of modern medical equipment throughout the country and the poor state of education, Fahim says she has a firm commitment to serve her patients. http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/05/DB0747A0-BF44-4592-94FE-361784019297.html

They are the exception, not the rule in the Muslim world: a term which is also a bit bogus...

Women are advancing quickly in those places that are secure and have economic opportunity. Women struggle when there is lack of opportunity and poverty... That pretty much sums the situation for women in the entire world not just the Middle East.

"Toxic" policies are created by "toxic" people like the Taliban. The reactionaries to patriarchy are in place of course, but is that not the case around the world?

Most of this part of the world is still 'developing'... Even those parts which have advanced highly economically have developed so quikly their social structures are still straining to cope.

Than their sisters in some other countries. In Lebanon & Turkey, a relatively small number is concerned about sexual inequality. Women are more concerned about "extremism"--which could make things worse for them.

Islam is a relatively young faith & may well evolve as time passes. There are Islamic feminists who wish to improve the lot of women while remaining Muslim.

Muslim women do NOT need to be preached at by representatives of a country that illegally invaded a Muslim country & has continued the occupation. They do NOT need to be told that their religion & their culture are worthless.

and it doesn't belong to the western tradition.

This place is full of contradictions.

I have had radical feminist students who wear FULL COVER and I have girls from conservative families dressing like Brittany Spears...

Go figure...


Your comments are quite on the the mark...

She is deceased, but was in her 70s when she ran the school, during the 1980s. She had a great deal of hope for women in Turkey, in the long run.

We shouldn't ignore the muslim women's criticisms of the safety and treatment on women in this country. We have freedom, we can go and do what we want, but we take a risk. If I go to the mall alone, I am at risk of being attacked in the parking lot. Over 50% of all american women have been sexually assualted or abused at some point in their lives. I don't know what type of statistics they have in muslim countries (and whether women are pressured not to report violence toward them), but if those women watch our news or see our movies, I can see where they think women are at terrible risk in the USA. All they need to see are a couple of those made-for-Lifetime tv movies, you know, the women's channel?

here...

It is the safest place I have ever lived. That's something they don't tell you in the U.S.

...where I've spent about 9 months so far.

I get an interesting perspective because I stay in the most liberal city in Egypt, Alexandria. But my job is way out in the Nile Delta, which is about as rural and conservative as you can get.

"Liberal" is a relative term, of course, and even here in Alexandria groups of loutish young men will sometimes harass women they consider too "uncovered."

If the woman is a foreigner, such behavior might just get the louts a firm clout in the head from an older Egyptian man, along with a lecture on the proper behavior towards guests in their country.

The loutish behavior is stupid for more than the obvious reasons, since the woman might very well be a Muslim who just doesn't wear the head covering (hijab). Not all do.

Even women who wear the hijab here often put a...twist on it that I never saw in Saudi Arabia, where I spent about 2 years. Younger women usually have their heads covered, but wear very tight tops and skin-tight blue jeans.

That's so common that it even affected sales of the Fulla doll. i.e., the "Muslim Barbie," originally sold with her own prayer rug and a black head-to-toe covering. Fulla didn't sell in Egypt until she was marketed with accessories more attractive to the local girls--tight tops, jeans and colorful, elaborate head-scarves. (Egyptians joke that Fulla does not have a Ken doll, but her accessories do include "several angry brothers...")

Anyway, it's not unusual here to see, say, three female college students walking arm-in-arm and chattering away: one wearing the hijab, one uncovered and wearing the Coptic Xian cross around her neck, and one of no obvious religious affiliation with streaked hair and Western-type make-up. I see that all the time.

As an atheist, it always tickles me to see a woman swathed in a Seventh-Century religious garb, while yakking on a cell-phone and driving her own car...probably to the local Internet Cafe.

"Extremism" here in Egypt often refers to the Muslim Brotherhood, which claims it has convinced 70 per cent of Egyptian women to wear niqab--the full black head-to-toe cover with veil/gloves and only the eyes showing.

My own eyes tell me that is BS of the purest ray serene. Even out in the farm villages it is rare to see niqab. Most women cover their heads, but these are farm women who often work brutally hard right alongside their husbands in the fields. I don't know how on earth they could work in that get-up.

In the last election, the "banned-but-tolerated" Muslim Brotherhood went from 15 seats in the Egyptian Parliament to 88. Liberal/working Egyptian women were horrified, but the inevitable crackdown on the Brothers is in full swing right now.

Cynics suspect that the (perpetually) ruling party used them mainly to get the attention of Dubya Bush: If you want "democracy" in the Middle East, bud, THIS is what you're going to get--democratically elected theocrats.

are the norm for local ladies in the UAE. However, locals here are a minority of the population. Muslim ladies from all over the world bring their own brand of modesty, or immodesty with them as they will.

My campus has 72 different nationalities and you can find everything right here...

Most Qatari women wear the full abaya and more often than not hijab, despite the fact that Qatari law allows them to dress however they wish.

It is quite cultural

She said it was wonderful not to have to worry about her hair.

temporarily, even though she's not Muslim, simply to avoid getting hassled for her blond hair.

and as an American one of things you would find disconcerting is the Asian lack of the 'personal space' concept. It simple doesn't exist here. Cover for Mulsim women (in my theory) was created to help resolve this issue.

Anyone can cut, move, stand, touch, etc. right next to you is a manner that would earn a scream or a shout in the US.

The Muslim world also loves kids. And I don't mean in the bullshit American "I'm PROFAMILY" kinda way. One thing I hate about coming home is how much AMERICA HATES KIDS. They REALLY love kids. People (strangers) all the time would touch my daughters' hair and say hello. In a traditional market they could literally walk through (pulling the blondie trick as we called it) and walk away with lots of free stuff.

women crazy here...

Ask my wife CYLRC

She was ticked off recently because I had to give her a permission letter to get her driving license... So somethings are a bit slower to change.

I do have to say I had to take a permission letter from my employer... that was a little annoying too... but there you go.

in different places. As does "women's issues".

In the developing world, "women's issues" tend to be things like clean drinking water for their families, schools for their kids, health care for their babies. "Human rights" is a pretty airy-fairy thing to be thinking about when you're worried about those kinds of basic needs.

And when you're worried about basic personal security, not specifically as a woman, but as a member of a population terrorized by armed thugs, whether government or anti-government, warring among themselves. Women are targeted for specific abuses, like systematic sexual assault, but quite reasonably don't perceive themselves as being "discriminated against" as much as they perceive themselves as victims of a broader problem.

Ditto for Muslim women in some of the situations mentioned in this thread, I'd say. When you see your entire family, community, society, being victimized in numerous and horrible ways, you probably don't focus too much on your own problems. Women are like that ...

Just a note on that corruption biz -- it really is important for people in the developed world to understand this. Government corruption is the number one concern of people world-wide. People in many places commonly really don't care whether their government is an hereditary chief or a sophisticated parliamentary apparatus. They do not want to be exploited by the people they rely on to keep their society functioning in the people's interests, and if their government is not corrupt, they don't care what it's called.

It is also important to realize that most people world-wide do not look at "government" the way most USAmericans appear to. Government is not something to be kept as far away and as powerless as possible; government is something that has a large role to play in maintaining and improving the people's quality of life, whether that be by organizing schools and health care or by protecting them from economic exploitation or physical harm at the hands of other segments of their societies.

So it is not hard to understand why women in some places have different priorities from "us". A whole lot of their pressing problems will be solved by development, and so in fact will the problems we perceive them as having in terms of sexual equality and human rights abuses.

And development depends heavily on honesty and transparency in government. Government corruption is the biggest enemy of development, and these people understand that very well.

There's nothing wrong with our message. We just need to catapult the propaganda more accurately. :sarcasm:

<snip>
<snip>
<snip>

Full article: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/politics/3946209.html

Propaganda, propaganda, propaganda...

the United States has begun an effort to make its diplomats more visible
in the world's media, particularly those that can spread U.S. views in Arab
countries.


Why is it we never make any effort to listen to other peoples views... Could it be that Muslim Women don't give a damn what the West has to say..!

I have never come across a majority of Muslim women complaining about their treatment in Muslim countries. I find it very very unlikely that they would keep so quiet.

pointed you to the first comment I posted below on the thread, but your post deserves special comment. No offense, but that is quite a naive statement. You've never come across a majority of women complaining? Where do you live? What studies or articles have you read? What forums or activist groups have you attended. Have you ever thought for a second that people do not complain because they either fear to do so, or have been socialized into belieivng that their disenfranchisment and treatment is ulimately for their benefit, akin to how women viewed their own condition hundreds of years ago, if not decades ago in the West. I find it very likely that they would keep quiet. I see it in my family and in my country of origin. You sit in a comfortable Western country, benefiting from the pain and suffering of what countless women have done before you to give you your rights and allow you to speak, and your response - what you give back is: "Could it be that Muslim Women don't give a damn what the West has to say..!".

shame.

I have rarely found Arab women to be shrinking violets about ANYTHING.

comments here. Where the hell is this moral relativism coming from. As an Egyptian with a feminist partner, the notion that some muslim women are happy with their inequality or that inequality is not an important issue or is expressed differently is odious and disgusting. Women's rights are women's rights. The right to freedom from violence and abuse; the right to make choices about their own bodies, the right to choose whom to marry, the right to participate economically and equally in society, the right to make decisions about their own childern, to choose whom they speak to, or where to travel etc. Yes, many women in the middle east do not consider equality an issue (including women among my own family and friends) precisely because they've been socialized to believe that that's the way it should be - no questioning the status quo, no protesting - no nothing. I wonder if posters here would give as much leeway and deference to evangelical women in the US who would argue that inequality is not an issue. Would you say...c'est la vie! Despite Bush's distorted, silly politics and method of communication, I do believe in Universal rights. I do beleive in the Universal rights that the UN has put forth. I do believe that stoning a woman for family honor is a pure evil - no relativism about it.

"Facile arguments like 'women can't drive in Saudi Arabia' are on their face true... the reality is that most DON'T want to."

Ahh...amazing rationalization by an Arab male...how many of you do I have in my own family...

"Crime in general and violent crime against women are virtually unknown"

that doesn't pass the laugh test and is indicative of a society that chooses to ignore, rather than confront.

"A Greek friend visiting Egypt adopted the head covering while there. She said it was wonderful not to have to worry about her hair."

of course...the bird gets used to its cage, and is taught that it is not in fact a cage, but freedom.


Disgusting. Some people have truly forgotten what it means to be liberal and progressive. You sound more like males from the 50's explaining to women why having less rights is in fact a good thing.

I would say the same thing about anyone trying to foist "freedom of speech" onto a bunch of people who don't have clean drinking water or schools or health care or personal security. Especially when the ones doing the foisting were contributing to the others' basic human needs not being met.

Women in Afghanistan, for instance, are showing both how it is done and what the effect is. Social stability and access to education are sine qua nons for development and the recognition / exercise of women's rights.

There is no point in using formal means like the law to address what are quite correctly called violations of human rights if individuals' ability to exercise those rights is non-existent. Women who don't have access to employment (and social services, and all the rest) simply can't enforce their right not to be physically abused by their husbands, for instance.

But I really do think that the main point here is that we have the US violating human rights in Iraq on a massive and daily basis, for example ... and the US govt and various elements of US society telling Iraqi society that women should be able to exercise rights. And if I were an Iraqi woman, I think I'd be saying that the first right I'd like to exercise is the collective right of my society to self-determination, followed by the right of myself, my family and all of my fellow Iraqis to be secure against torture and extra-judicial execution maybe.

That being said, I think you make excellent points in respect of some of the other matters, and I am glad you spoke up to refute some of the things said.

I don't hold with "cultural relativism" on matters of fundamental human rights; I just think that the interests and priorities of members of other societies may sometimes be different for good reasons, but in any event that they certainly may have a better idea of how to address and ultimately eliminate the rights violations in their societies than I do.



(btw, kudos for your efforts to counter the nonsense circulating about the wannabe fertilizer bombers up here. Sheesh, eh?)

when it comes to human rights...processes will probably be different from country to country, but the end goal will or should be the same.

Egypt.

It is virtually non-existent here (in the UAE, and other parts of the Gulf). That is fact.

What I tell you about driving comes from Saudi women I know... You might also ask my DU wife about fear of driving here... If you have ever driven in Cairo, I am sure you could share some stories.

My point was that things that people like Karen Hughes zero-in on are not the real issues. The real issues are much more complex than that.

Women ARE advancing here as long as there is economic and social opportunity for women in the place we are talking about. If the country isn't developing in other ways it's the same old story of patriarchy.

The picture, however, is not all that different from the picture you find around the world in relation to women's rights.

Now, do you really think they want "American Values"?

with images of women wearing the clothes they choose and acting the ways they choose (a woman in a bathing costume- the horror!!!), as if they're somehow equally offensive.

But any Muslim (or anyone else) who believes such images alone represent American values is as much of an ignorant, narrow minded bigot as any American who believes Islamic values are best represented by images of people jumping out the twin towers on 9/11, or embassies being torched over a cartoon.

You can't have it both ways.

Not depicting so much the freedom to wear what one wished as much as the sexual exploitation of American Women.

And yes, to me the exploitation of women is as equally offensive as violence.

I agree as an American Muslim, that those images alone don't do Justice to the American ideal... But please do consider the image that America is exporting to the rest of the world, particularly to the Muslim world, right now.

Peace.