Air Traffic Controllers Lose - Bush Administration Wins.

H.R. 5449 just failed to gain a 2/3 majority in the House.

The FAA will now be able to unilaterally impose a contract on the nation's air traffic controllers.

More info: www.fairfaa.com

You guys do such a great job, but what will happen when the current controllers retire and new people don't even want to do the job any more because of the lousy pay and work rules? Can't rely on TCAS for everything!

25% of the workforce is eligible to retire within the next 12 months (25 years after Reagan fired the PATCO controllers). The contract they're imposing actually COSTS controllers who decide to stay money.

Add to that the FAAs decision to pay new controllers less than $18k per year, and you have a recipe for disaster.

It's SO frustrating to be part of a system that works and have to watch bureaucrats actively dismantle it...and make no mistake, that's exactly what's happening. The ONLY reason we have the safest air traffic control system in the world is our huge experience base. After today, that base no longer exists...our legislators actively chose to eliminate it.

Are you still safe when you fly? Yes. We're professionals and we have a personal commitment to, above all (regardless of how management sets its priorities), safety. I don't care what I'm told to do, I will never allow safety to take a back seat when I'm working. However, we ARE losing a lot of our most experienced controllers and the FAA certainly isn't offering financial incentives to hire the best people as their replacements.

Our mission is still the same...the "safe, orderly and expeditious flow of traffic" (by the way, that's the FAA's OLD mission...they've changed it over the last few years.....regardless, that's the mission most of us still personally work under).

They're cutting our pay.

They've ended their partnership with us in the development of new systems and procedures.

They've encouraged our most experienced people to leave and offered little incentive for exceptional people to replace them.

We'll still keep you safe. We always have...we always will.

was the tipping point on the long slide towards union busting leaving us with the results we have today. Certainly there were many other contributing factors and the unions themselves share part of the blame for not really paying attention to reality, but Reagan and Patco were really when things started the long road downhill.

in the NFL....if you piss off the linemen, you know, the guys doing all the real work and getting bashed and bruised, you're quite likely to get a "look out" block....the lineman steps aside, lets the linebacker through and tells the quarterback, "LOOK OUT!" Generally the quarterback gets the message quickly.....

in the case of ATC, it's too dangerous to do a "LOOK OUT" separation....

Why was it a 'suspend the rules' vote? There was no debate.

(the ability of the FAA to unilaterally impose a contract in the event of an impasse in negotiations)

I didn't know it required a 2/3 majority vote.

My partner hasn't finished getting checked out at CLT (just finshed getting checked out in the tower--still has radar to go). Now she's wondering if the FAA's plan is to spit facilities towers and radar. Hell I guess they can do whatever they fucking well please now.

Re: dress code, I think you should go thrift shopping and choose a really loud, tacky powder-blue tux, and wear that to work. That would meet code right?

Take 470 people that were specifically selected for their creative problem-solving skills and assertiveness and give them some silly dress code? We have it covered.

Golf pants and 70's tuxedo shirts in various pastel colors.

Kilts (for the men)

Dresses (for the men). Of course, they'd have to be business-appropriate...hemlines below the knee...but that's fine. I'm no slut. :)

My favorite: Pirate garb. Pirate boots, pants, and shirts. No bandannas or eye patches (and no parrots). If your partner's interested, the site to shop at is www.dresslikeapirate.com ...real clothing, not costume stuff.

One of the area union reps told me he found the BEST orange suit...I can't wait to see it.

Unfortunately, if your partner's not fully certified she may be screwed...developmentals may go to the "new employees'" pay scale.

If I recall correctly, she's a NATCA member. As she's aware, we have national elections coming up. I know Pat Forrey personally and feel he'd be a great replacement for John Carr. Carr was great with some issues, but his decision to get personally aggressive with Blakey hurt us, in my estimation. Forrey's got a LOT of experience and I think he'd be a great choice for NATCA President...just my .02 if you choose to mention it to her.

I'm involved in my local...if she thinks any sort of dialog would be productive, have her let me know. We're all family.

This will affect my brother and his family. He works ATC at Hartsfield International.

My wife was ready to punch one out during the election of 2000. While we were waiting in line to vote he was going on about liberals, and Gore, and basically electioneering in line to vote, which is illegal in this state.

Also how many of the current controllers are SCABS who came to work after Reagan hit the union hard?

While I hate to see any union lose power there's a bit of consolation knowing the ones I know.

She's no Repug. She's a NATCA member. Neither is my uncle. He's a hard core Dem--a controller for over 30 years.

A Scab? What's the statute of limitations on being a SCAB? My partner joined the agency in '87. What was she supposed to do right out of the Navy ATC program, wrap burritos at Taco Bell?

The government would like nothing better than a job action. It would give them the right to disband NATCA permanently.

Am I a "scab"?

I've been there for 15 years.

We need to be cognizant of the time frame here. Controllers are eligible to retire after 25 years. Reagan fired the PATCO controllers 25 years ago. The OLDEST controllers now were hired before the strike. More that 80% of them were hired afterwords.

We're not "scabs".

the FAA to bargain in good faith. You have no rights under the Wagoner act and now you cannot force the issues to an arbitrator.

As employees you have no rights to collectively bargain. What Raygun did in busting PATCO, and now it's Bu$h and his accomplices in Congress doing the same thing.

In the end, the workers have only one power and that is to deny the employer their work. In your case, if you go out, the military steps in and mans the boards then the FAA fires everyone striking. Then hires new employees. That's just what the mines did and the meat packers and the steel companies and the railroads and the automobile plants and...well you get the idea. Will you welcome the Dixiecrats back into the party now, since they are trying to bail on the republican party and return to the Dem camp since the repubs are getting a bad name?

How do you feel about the DLC now? Still think the left is a bunch of wack jobs and CT's?

The only thing you could hope for would be the other Unions to go out also. But they won't. Nobody supports anybody else's union anymore. That's so...socialist.

I hope all this sinks in. Either everyone stands together, or everyone falls one at a time. That's the only way workers have ever gotten a fair deal with 'negotiating' with employers. You can bet employers, no matter what the company, stand together when it comes to unions, and breaking the workers power.

This Congress doesn't represent the people, it represents the employers. There is nothing you can do at his time except hope people come to their senses about what the Dem party is supposed to be about and who it is this party is supposed to work for.

I'll probably get tombstoned for saying all these things because the party is trying to flush anybody to the left of what is a moderate. And thus welcome with open arms the turncoat republicans. It's a kinder "gentler party" that somehow thinks it's right to get power at any expense rather than doing what's right, for the people.

I'm not optimistic that 2006 will bring any changes to how this government operates, even if the Dems sweep the polls, because in the end it does matter who, and not just the letter behind the name.

nt

The ONLY issue I took with your post was "How do you feel about the DLC now? Still think the left is a bunch of whack jobs and CT's?"

I'm disappointed that I'm taking a $25k/year pay cut. I'm disappointed that, as an employee that works in a big building with no windows, a fence around it, and armed guards to keep people out, I'll now be required to wear dress shoes, slacks, and a collared shirt to work. I'm disappointed that The FAA Administrator can now unilaterally reclassify my facility and change my pay scale. I'm disappointed that the FAA's plan actually makes it financially disadvantageous for our most experienced controllers to stay. I'm disappointed that the FAA proposes a starting salary of less that $18k/year for the people who are going to replace them.

Those are disappointments.

I'm ANGRY
that the FAA has chosen to take the busiest (we work 50% of the planet's air traffic) and safest air traffic system and kill the ONLY thing that makes it work...the ability to attract and keep the BEST people. Yesterday, I was a part of the busiest and safest ATC system on the planet, and I took pride in that. Today, I'm just part of another broken and declining government agency.


I may have issues with the DLC for other reasons, but the DLC had nothing to do with this situation...other than the fact that they haven't been competent or representative enough to garner enough support for an increased Democratic presence in the House.

Yeah...I'm disappointed about some things and I'm angry about others. However, I don't see how loving the DLC would have changed that.

No doubt you speak for many here.

My grandad was a union organizer for Textile Workers of America in the 30's. He was nearly killed twice by company thugs while he was organizing in the south. It pains me to see the mindset that 25 plus years of "every man for himself" has gotten us. The "ownership society" means you are owned by the company.

My grandad grew up dirt poor wore his sisters shoes to school as a kid. Thanks to the union he was able to make good money and bring the next generation up higher. It seems like now even in occupations where people COULD put pressure on the company to increase wages they are too stupid or self centered to realize the power they have. Like you say a nationwide strike might bring them to their senses.

In the 80's when the economy sucked many employees gave concessions to protect their jobs. They were willing to give to keep their employer in business. However now many companies are making record profits and they feel no obligation to reward their employees to get them thru the hard times.

Our country is morally bankrupt. Babylon the Great. All mighty dollar is God.

These repubs sure know how to screw over air traffic controllers lives.

:yoiks:

like to fly. I use to love flying, but no more.

There may be fewer of us, but we'll still keep you safe.

Yes,this situation has crippled us, but I don't want anybody to feel that we're not still doing our jobs.

Regardless of the FAAs priorities, OUR first priority (always) is to get you where you're going safely. That won't change.

but don't you think that what you ATC people 'do' should be compensated a "bit more" than what the bag boy/girl at the local gocery store gets paid???? C'mon.....

...and that's one of my big concerns.

Yes, the FAA has made the decision to cripple its greatest (and, really, ONLY) asset...the quality of its workforce. Yes, that concerns me greatly.

I don't want to minimize that concern. I do, however, want people to know that those of us who chose this profession are personally committed to keeping you safe. Congress has decided to allow the FAA to violate every basic principle of collective bargaining, and that's going to have an immense impact on the integrity of the system. That's a policy decision. It harms the system. Overall, they've engineered an immediate decline in the quality of air traffic services.

Those of us left will do what we're committed to do. Regardless of the pay cut and the bullshit conditions under which we work, we'll get you where you're going safely...because that's what we do.

I don't mean to minimize the damage the FAA has done to the air traffic system. I just want to reassure people that, for those of us left, their safety is our first priority...even though it's no longer the FAAs first priority.

"We guide you home" It's not just NATCA's tagline...it's the personal commitment of all of us.

I feel better. ;-)

Our job just got a LOT more difficult, but we're still the safest system in the world. We're professionals with a personal comittment to your safety. The FAA has set other priorities for us, but our personal comittment demands nothing less than a completely uneventful flight from takeoff to landing.

I didn't start this thread to scare people. I posted it because I think you have a right to know that something most of you have taken for granted (air safety) is being actively undermined by the very agency that was tasked to protect it (the FAA).

I hired on in 1991. I'm elegible to leave in 2016 (a little less than 10 years from now). I'm an instructor (OJTI). On 9/11, I was at the FAA Tech Center building computer models for RVSM (Reduced Vertical Separation Minima). I was my area lead for RVSM implementation. I'm not atypical. Many of us have gone beyond the requirements of our jobs to do what we can to make the system safer and more efficient.

That degree of comittment is a thing of the past. Yeah, I'll still be there (for the next 9 years), but the FAA is creating a culture of "do your job, get your paycheck". Where we used to have people who were encoureged to contribute their skills, we now have a starting salary of less than $18k (that's $8.65 an hour).

The complete controller workforce is less then 15,000. Almost 4,000 controllers are eligible to retire in the next year. Under this imposed contract, the people that you're counting on to make certain your airplane doesn't collide with another airplane will have a starting salary of less than $18k/year.


We experienced controllers will keep you safe. You'd make our mission one hell of a lot easier if you'd demand that the FAA do two things:

1) agree to practices that remotely resemble fair bargaining with their employees, and

2) stop putting political gain ahead of safety and start representing your constituents.


I want the same thing you do.

making the same wages as a person at mcdonalds, or as a housekeeper. The skills and the pressure is immense. A lot of my husbands family is in the business... its not easy... at least with good pay and benefits it is worthwhile. You would be crazy to go into the field starting out that low. You could probably qualify for medicade at that point like walmart workers.

They make stupid decisions.

25% of our workforce is eligible to retire in the next 12 months and the FAA has effectively cut off our supply of competent replacements.

One theory (though it's a little :tinfoilhat: for me) is that the government is trying to irreparably break ATC so they can privatize it (something Republicans have already tried, unsuccessfully).

Here is what I would say.

You are going to have to shut the industry down, all at once. And gather all the parties together and say we are going to resolve a lot of issues before the industry can start back up.

Now to shut it down, all the unions in the industry have to agree to support each other completely. That means all the pilots unions, stews, mechanics, ground handling personel, ATC, the whole enchalada.

When all the civilian planes are grounded and none of the companies are making money and all the tourists and business people are taking cars, trains and buses to get where they want to go, then you can bet there will be negotiation in good faith.

The only way the companies (FAA) gets away with what they are doing is because everyone is separated from each other. Now there are laws that are supposed to kick-in to prevent massive strikes. And those law are in place to prevent people from telling the power people to take a hike. But in the end, if everyone sticks together, the laws don't mean squat.

Solidarity is a real word with real meaning. You can bet, the fat cats hate it when people stick together. Why do you think we in the Dem party have so many hot-buttons, it's to keep people from supporting each other.

But I myself don't have enough influence to convince people what they need to do to stop what's going on.

It can be done though, because that is how the unions finally got a say in how the working conditions would be. Ford didn't out of the goodness of his heart give in. He was forced to give-in by Walter Reuther and a bunch of guys on a bridge over the Rouge River in a bloody fight.

We hear today, ah Ghandi this and Ghandi that. Give peace a chance. There are a thousand ways to say I give-up. But if the opponent only understands force and will not listen to a peaceful solution, there is only one way. It takes 2 sides to come-up with peace. If one is unwilling and becomes a wall, then rolling over that wall is about all that can be done.

If people keep giving-up and cannot form into power blocks using solidarity, then in the end it will come down to force. Now to stop that from happening there has to be a point where people say NO, you cannot do this, we will not allow you to do this thing. When that happens then the politicians fall in line to get in front of the people. Politicians are not leaders, they are followers. Always have been. But they love it when they can think they are leaders. Act like big shots.

...and pay your replacement a LOT less than they paid you...

That's how old I was when Reagan fired the PATCO controllers. Many of the rookies at work hadn't even been born.

How, exactly, were we supposed to have "supported PATCO"?

Clearly, a large set of scabs made it possible for
Reagan to dismantle PATCO and, in doing so, cripple
the union movement in America.

Tesha

too busy in high school spanish class to support PATCO? She didn't join the agency until 1987.

Yours wins the dumb post of the day award.

She's a NATCA member btw, so stifle yourself on the "scab" remarks.

Maybe you should stop laying blame on people who had nothing to do with it.

It's beginning to sound like a meme from a few select posters.

I don't know Tesha's background, but the local papers here have been publishing op/eds from old PATCO employees calling us "scabs" and saying that they, the "real controllers" are ready to return to work any time.

:eyes:

I can just see the suits from McDonnell Douglass getting their powerpoint presentations ready.

Discussion in our house this AM has been about the FAAs plan to split the facilities (Miami, and Charlotte and a few others) and making controllers bid on work in either tower or tracon. So instead of CLT being a level 12 as one facility, it would split to a level 11 tower and 11 tracon. My partner just got to CLT from GSO--thought she was playing it smart by moving up. She anticipated the lower levels getting fucked over first. Now come to find out the plan all along was to split CLT. She's wondering if she can hang on in the tower for the next 6 years (since she's checked out there)....if she's even given that option. What if they make everybody bid for positions b/t tower and tracon?

Now won't THAT be extra crappy.

Take 40 people at a level 12 facility, split them into two groups of 20, claim that they're now not as busy (even though the facility still works the same number of airplanes), and cut their pay. There's been talk that the FAA is planning to split the Centers by area and downgrade the areas.

9 years, 9 months, 23 days...

...it can't come soon enough.

I have/had nothing to do with PATCO.

I simply know that if union workers had STOOD UP AT
THAT MOMEN, IN UNISION, AND FAUGHT BACK, the damage
Reagan directly did to PATCO and the much vaster damage
he indirectly did by teaching corporations how to bust
unions WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN DONE.

The day he fired the PATCO workers and no one struck
back was a day that did just as much damage to Americans
as 12/12/2000 or 9/11/2001.

Reagan's smashing of PATCO *WAS* enabled by scabs and
unions and Democrats who were busy "keeping their powder
dry" and there's no denying it.

Tesha

If you have, then you're an enabler and a scab yourself, dearie.

> Have you been on an airplane since 1981?
>
> If you have, then you're an enabler and a scab yourself, dearie.

As I said, if the shoe fits... ;-)

But at least I'm not making my money on Massa Reagan's plantation.

Tesha

??

Ask yourself the question: Could Reagan have done this
if there were no replacement workers to step right in
and fill the void?

Ask yourself the question: If Reagan hadn't smashed PATCO,
would you be in as weak a bargaining position as you are
today with NATCA?

Tesha

I understand your point, but most current controllers were either kids when Reagan fired the PATCO controllers or they hadn't been born yet. How are they responsible?

The fact is this: ATC is a safety-sensitive government function. By contract (also under PATCO's contract) it's illegal for air traffic controllers to strike. PATCO knew that when it voted to strike. While I don't agree with Reagan's actions, PATCO knew it was breaking the law and setting up its membership for termination...they just thought there'd be enough support from other unions to force the issue. There wasn't. They gambled and lost.

How are people who hired in 10 or 20 (or 25) years later to blame for PATCO's bad judgement?

I'm not going to say what I feel like saying to you because I don't want to get tombstoned.

I'll let your ignorance speak for itself. If the shoe fits and all that jazz...;)

don't go there.

have you ever been on strike for anything?

> have you ever been on strike for anything?

No, I've never been unionized.

Have you ever been on strike? Crossed a picket line?

Tesha

But I know where to lay the blame for things. Unlike some people.

Please check the other posts...

"Where we used to have people who were encoureged to contribute their skills, we now have a starting salary of less than $18k (that's $8.65 an hour)."

Isn't that wage about the Federal guideline for poverty level for a family of 4? That is a job that NEEDS to start out at twice, or even 3 times that amount at least b/c of it's importance and the fact that it's relatively high-stress. A damn cashier at Home Depot makes as much as that ($8.65).

(Oh of course only those that were born here.):sarcasm:

Can we leave yet?

...which is why we stand where we do.

Actually, had HR 5449 passed, we'd still be going before a Bush-appointed arbitrator. We'd be screwed either way.

At least, though, it would have seemed a little fairer.

(The Federal Union thing)

Brutal!:hurts:

They know the majority of working people put their customers, projects, art, patients, accuracy, safety, quality, coworkers, personal performance etc etc etc ahead of the "company". People will take a ton of shit from management before they will retaliate by doing a crappy job because it hurts--sometimes literally--too many people who don't deserve it.

at the same time he was making a big deal about Lek Walensea (sp?) and the Solidarity worker's movement in Poland.

I was working on my private pilot's license about that same time. Later, during the stand-up comic part of my life I did a bit about ATC & Reagan. Something like this:

Some airlines let you listen to the tower communications on the headsets. I like that because I feel like I know what's happening--I'm in control. But lately control towers have started using those phone menus...that's a little disturbing. The pilot calls in and I hear...Hello! You have reached the Ronald Reagan Control tower. Your aircraft **is** important to us. If you’d like to land, press 1; if you would like to take off, press 2; if any of your seat cushions have **become** approved flotation devices, and you to speak with a controller, please stay on the line.

"Press one if you want to land...Press two if you see a mountain..." etc. when the government was trying to privatize us.

Great concept.