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Eugene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 09:55 AM
Original message
High Court Backs Police No-Knock Searches
High Court Backs Police No-Knock Searches


Thursday June 15, 2006 3:46 PM

By GINA HOLLAND

Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) - The Supreme Court ruled Thursday that police can use evidence collected
with a warrant even if officers fail to knock before rushing into a home.

Justice Samuel Alito broke a 4-4 tie in siding with Detroit police, who called out their
presence at a man's door then went inside three seconds to five seconds later.

The case had tested previous court rulings that police armed with warrants generally must knock
and announce themselves or they run afoul of the Constitution's Fourth Amendment ban on
unreasonable searches.

Justice Antonin Scalia, writing for the majority, said "whether that preliminary misstep
had occurred or not, the police would have executed the warrant they had obtained, and
would have discovered the gun and drugs inside the house."
<snip>

Full article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-5888517,00.html
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
1. Police State (nt)
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Greylyn58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #1
16. Absolutely!!!
And that is scary as hell!!!



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OrangeCountyDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
2. Now There's A Shock!
Oh well, we didn't need that right anyways.

Tick, Tick, Tick....liberties vanishing on a daily basis. Move along.
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
3. When you put this in with the 'shoot first to defend your home' laws..
Edited on Thu Jun-15-06 10:05 AM by htuttle
...isn't that sort of a recipe for a lot of dead cops?

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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. shoot first? who ever does will be dead
along with everyone in the line of fire. there`s no difference between those innocents the us marines murdered and the up coming murders in the cities and villages in our once great nation.
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. I'm speaking in particular about laws like the 'Stand your Ground' law...
...in Florida.

Here's a quote from one analysis of the law on findlaw. How is this going to work with 'No knock/kick the door in' police actions?:


Under the old law, a person who killed someone in their home had the burden of proof to show that they were in fear for their safety. Now, all a person has to do is establish that the person they killed was "unlawfully" and "forcibly" entering their home when they shot the victim.

That is because the new creates a presumption that anyone who forcibly and illegally enters a home is intent on threatening the lives of the people within. And, at least according to a report written for the Judiciary Committee of the Florida Senate, that presumption is conclusive; it cannot be rebutted with contrary evidence.

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/sebok/20050502.html


If the police do not announce they are entering first, how is someone inside supposed to know whether they are entering illegally or not? I think most people would presume that anyone barging into your home unannounced at 3am would be doing it illegally. But would somebody be able to shoot a cop making a no-knock entry and get away with it?

:shrug:

Either way you cut it, it sounds like a violent mess in the making...

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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. agreed
a mess that unfortunately will favor the police.
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Tempest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. It won't favor the police who are killed when they break in
Time to re-visit the shotgun tied to the doorknob home security measure.
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BreweryYardRat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #11
62. That is illegal anyway you care to slice it.
There's a provision somewhere in the legal code that says you can't set traps for intruders. Get the Magistrate or one of our other DU lawyers to go into the details for you.

It's also a good way to ensure you have an "accident."
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #7
18. If someone just bursts into my door
my first instinct is going to be to attack and incapacitate them as quickly as possible and by any means necessary. i don't think my adrenaline would even give me time to notice they were wearing a uniform.
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #18
28. They would outnumber you
by at least four to one and have weapons drawn at the ready. They won't be rousting from a slumber. Their adrenaline will be pumping full speed, it won't have to wake up. They will contain you as quickly as possible. I don't see that they are in any great danger from oop-sies.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #28
44. I didn't say I'd survive it
Just that it was likely what I would do.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
41. This is true even without castle doctrine laws...
since if you are a law-abiding person who doesn't deal drugs or hang out with people who do, you are more likely to get your door kicked in by criminals pretending to be police than you are to be raided by the police. Which creates just the sort of scary, ambiguous situation that would best be avoided, for the safety of all concerned.

No-knock warrants should be STRICTLY limited to those situations in which a known, imminent threat requires their use. AND, the Exclusionary Rule should apply to any evidence siezed on a no-knock raid later shown to be unjustified.
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noonwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. It is in Detroit, where cops are target practice for the punks out there
The case is a Detroit one. Detroit cops get killed in large numbers, every year. Cop killings are not rare here, and these are the types of circumstances where they happen most-standoffs when enforcing arrest warrants or other similar situations dealing with armed people in their homes.

I don't know if all DPD officers have access to kevlar in these kind of circumstances-at one point, the police were soliciting citizens for donations to buy kevlar vests. The DPD has been run by idiots for some time. Benny Napolean was good, but his cops shot a lot of people, so he took a lot of heat for that.
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Orion The Hunter Donating Member (322 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #3
15. Yeah bad idea to just go charging in...
I tend to agree with htuttle - in many states (particularly in the South), there are laws like "Stand Your Ground", where people are entirely within their rights to shoot first and ask questions later if someone is attempting to force their way into their homes. If the Police want to risk getting blasted, well I suppose then can go charging in, but for their own safety, it's probably more advisable for the Police to identify themselves as law enforcement before just charging right in.
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madville Donating Member (743 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 03:37 AM
Response to Reply #15
63. Doesn't matter if they make a mistake
Doesn't matter if they make a mistake. It wouldn't be beyond individual law officers to plant something to justify their actions, especially in the event a mistake is made in order to cover their own ass.
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lyonn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
25. Exactly, this is a lose, lose situation
When the cops get the wrong address and go blasting into someone's home they could easily get blown away. My gawd, who wins in this? Certainly not the police. Not the potention innocent resident. This is one more Unbelievable action by this New Government we now have. They ain't got no sense.
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Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
30. A lot of dead people on both sides of the door frame.
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MikeNearMcChord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
43. Check This Out!
A case in Mississppi, that can be repeated all over the land.
http://www.mayeisinnocent.com/
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
4. the war on drugs was always about the destruction of our rights
we have been in a police state and very few cared because it was always someone else. oh well it was a great idea and maybe someday we will wake up...but i`m not holding my breath
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. Agreed! n/t
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
6. Alito broke the 4-4 tie? I'm sooooooooo surprised.
:sarcasm:
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CityDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #6
21. Big Surprise
Sandra Day O'Connor would have ruled differently so the arguments were heard again and Alito voted in favor of a police state. We can only hope that Stevens, Souter and Ginsberg will hold on until a Democrat is sitting in the oval office.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
8. How long will it be until this fascist SCOTUS votes that police
do not need warrants to search our homes?

At the rate that republicans are taking away our rights and liberty, it probably won't be too long.
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ugarte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
12. More like "Don't knock, don't tell"
I'm sure cops are going to be diligent about announcing themselves, now that they have the right to kick the door down without bothering to knock.

:sarcasm:


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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
14. Kennedy is a MAJOR disappointment on this issue.
And Scalia should be impeached!
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leftyladyfrommo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
17. Why don't we just open our front doors and let everyone in?
Police, dog catcher, the clean house detectives?
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eagler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
19. This should only serve to energize the base for the next
election.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
20. This is so dangerous for everyone involved.
Even apart from the erosion of civil liberties, it's just FREAKING STUPID.
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winter999 Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
22. 90 years of precedence overturned!
So much for Stare Decisis (Latin for "to stand by things decided"). How long does RvW have?
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #22
32. They'll Probably Overturn Roe This Summer
We headed them off in SD with a referendum,
so now they have passed a law in Louisiana banning all abortions
even when the mother would certainly die delivering the baby.

That will be used to overturn Roe v. Wade. They will probably do
it before the elections to energize their wingnut base.
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obreaslan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
23. Phil Ochs song: Knock on the Door...

Knock on the Door


By Phil Ochs

In many a time, in many a land,
With many a gun in many a hand,
They came by the night, they came by the day,
Came with their guns to take us away

With a knock on the door, knock on the door.
Here they come to take one more,
One more.

Back in the days of the Roman Empire,
They died by the cross and they died by the fire.
In the stone coliseum, the crowd gave a roar,
And it all began with that knock on the door

Just a knock on the door, knock on the door.
Here they come to take one more,
One more.

The years have all passed, we've reached modern times,
The Nazis have come with their Nazi war crimes.
Yes the power was there, the power was found,
Six million people have heard that same sound

That old knock on the door, knock on the door.
Here they come to take one more,
One more.

Now there's many new words and many new names,
The banners have changed but the knock is the same.
On the Soviet shores with right on their side,
I wonder who knows how many have died

With their knock on the door, knock on the door.
Here they come to take one more,
One more.

Look over the oceans, look over the lands,
Look over the leaders with the blood on their hands.
And open your eyes and see what they do,
When they knock over their friend they're knocking for you

With their knock on the door, knock on the door.
Here they come to take one more,
With their knock on the door, knock on the door.
Here they come to take one more,
One more.

NOW HEY DON'T EVEN NEED TO KNOCK!!!!

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pinniped Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
24. I guess this is why the gun-nuts were so excited about....
the goon's judge picks being installed.

They can finally test out their firearms on those pesky intruders in the night.

I bet the dumbasses didn't see this one coming, they never do with their hero.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. WTF are you talking about?
Gun owners were standing with the ACLU on the 4th Amendment before it was popular to do so...most of them have long realized that gun owners are one of the groups most endangered by violations of the Fourth Amendment.

Just because I'm not OK with trashing the 2nd Amendment doesn't mean I'm OK with trashing the 4th...

I just came here from a thread on the High Road, and nearly everyone there is as incensed as we are.
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pinniped Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Mostly all were all exited he got his judges installed.
I don't recall seeing many or any gun-nuts on gun-nut sites go against his judge picks.

They were more than happy * was given the power to shift the court.

They are probably just as mad as when the * cabal wanted to sell the ports to that foreign country.

Maybe now they can see the error of their ways, but it's a little late.

Vote for * and get fucked one way or another.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Were you hanging out on the gun boards at the time?
I was. And most of his court picks have always worried gunnies on the 4thA, even when Alito gave lip service to the 2ndA. They were more afraid of a Gonzales USSC appointment, though (his appointment to AG was bad enough...)

And you should have seen the threads about the Kelo decision...

FWIW, around a third of gunnies are Dems, plus quite a few indies. But even the repubs on THR are mad as %#@! about this decision. (Not many 29 percenters over there.)
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pinniped Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. I've been reading g-nut boards for years.
Edited on Thu Jun-15-06 01:53 PM by pinniped
The ones I read are filled with hardcore * lovers. They can't get enough. Though now, a few proclaim to be disappointed with him. I have no doubt many would vote for him again.

Sometimes these gun-nuts are so fixated on their guns they don't see the bigger picture. Many vote based solely on the candidate's 2A ideology. Real or imagined.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #39
45. You might try the High Road...
there's a sizeable contingent of pro-gun Dems and indies over there, including the guy who runs Pro-Gun Progressive. It's a pretty broad mix. (Note to non-gunnies--no trolling please! I don't want to start any forum wars...)
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lyonn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
26. This need s one more recommend!
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #26
35. Done. (n/t)
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
27. Freedom® is such a messy thing.
I'm so ashamed for my country.

And Alito.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
29. That's distressing...
...and what happens when they get the wrong house?

If I read this correctly, the court just turned ALL search warrants into no-knock warrants, if the police executing the warrant choose not to knock. It used to be that no-knock warrants required a special procedure, and the warrant had to explicitly BE a no-knock warrant. In this case, it appears that this was NOT a no-knock warrant, and the court said it's OK if the police pretend it is.

I can see a place for no-knock warrants, but they should only be allowed in extreme cases. Now the court has said that any warrant is a no-knock warrant, at whim... :(
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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. You are right. Police DID already have the ability to get a special
"no-knock" warrant from a judge. Now police have the authority to break down doors with every warrant issued.

This is a recipe for disaster.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #36
47. And police sometimes get the address wrong -
recipe for disaster for a whole lot of innocent people

We're are all Iraqis now.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #47
54. One of the reasons for waiting for compliance is to avoid those types
of tragedies, as is pointed out by the following FBI report on the way things USED to be:

http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/1997/may976.htm

UNDERLYING RATIONALE FOR KNOCK AND ANNOUNCE

(snip)

The rule serves to protect both the individual citizen and the police from the risk of harm and the potential for violence that may occur as a result of an unannounced entry.20 Announcement protects officers by ensuring that they are not "mistaken for prowlers and shot down by a fearful householder."21 Innocent citizens also are protected from law enforcement officers who mistakenly might shoot armed occupants who merely are trying to defend themselves from who they preceive to be armed intruders.


Now that all warrants are de facto no-knock warrants, the situation is indeed scarier for everybody.
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genieroze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
37. Thanks SCOTUS fascists, I can see this being abused by the cops.
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
38. Remember what G. Gordon Liddy said of ATF agents breaking in?
On September 15, 1994, for example, Liddy told his listeners: "If the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms insists upon a firefight, give them a firefight. Just remember, they're wearing flak jackets and you're better off shooting for the head." The theme was repeated so often that Liddy's callers began to exclaim "head shots!" to express their agreement with the host, the way Rush Limbaugh's callers say "megadittos."

After Liddy's talk of shooting federal agents received media attention, in the wake of the Oklahoma City bombing (London Independent, 4/24/95), some stations dropped Liddy's program. In a press conference responding to the controversy (Associated Press, 4/25/95), Liddy clarified his advice by noting that shooting a federal agent in the head might not be the ideal plan: "So you shoot twice to the body, center of mass, and if that does not work, then shoot to the groin area."

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2505

I bet there are a lot of Conservative Repubs that are fuming at this. Wonder what Liddy and the NRA have to say?
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
40. Now, if we could just extend this for encyclopedia sales...
No longer would we have to knock and show a business card to some wishy-washy prospect who "forgot" they entered a drawing a month earlier at a shopping mall for a free dictionary, only to have their entry turn up as a lead for some hapless sales rep.

Now we could simply kick in the door and yell something like, "FREEZE, PUNK! HERE'S A SET OF BRITANNICAS! BUY 'EM, YOU SCUMBAG!!!"
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
42. Welcome to the United Police States of America!!!
Well, this is a great reason to keep your bong shiny clean with fresh daisies in it.

:blush:

I mean, er, if I had a bong that's what I would do with it. :blush: I mean, er, what are bongs for anyway? :shrug:

Dang. Gotta love triple deadbolt steel reinforced vault lock front doors. Keeps the field mice and other critters out.

BASICALLY, they don't have to even show or prove that they have a warrant. That's what I love about America.

And I want to personally thank Joe Dumbfuck Lieberman and the other idiot Democrats who thought a filibuster on the SCOTUS nominees wasn't a good idea. Each and every one of you. Thank you. With Democrats like you, who needs republicans?
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lyonn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. Ahhh, like your friendly reminder about those that did
Edited on Thu Jun-15-06 02:54 PM by lyonn
not vote to have a filibuster on bobble head Alito. If Ever a filibuster was called for this was it. Oh the pain of it all.

While watching the debate in the House today I heard a bunch of Dems that are telling truth to power. They need media time with their views and ideas on how to get out of Iraq. They are setting out real ideas and the repubs continue to say, see, they have no plan.

p.s. With summer recess coming up I thoroughly expect bush to make those recess appointments for judges as I heard the religious right is getting angry about this Roe issue and gays. They even mentioned how bush needs to quickly fill those judgeships, probably before the Congress might change hands soon.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
48. This reverses a 1976 Supreme Court precedent
Edited on Thu Jun-15-06 05:27 PM by benEzra
that stated that no-knocks could ONLY be used in certain circumstances, on Fourth Amendment grounds.

http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/1997/may976.htm

Knock and Anounce Legislation

Despite this common law background, 34 states, the District of Columbia, and the federal government have enacted statutes requiring that law enforcement officers knock and announce their presence prior to making forced entry to premises.4 A typical example of a statutory enactment is the federal knock and announce statute, which provides: The officer may break open any outer or inner door or window of a house, or any part of a house, or anything therein, to execute a search warrant, if, after notice of his authority and purpose, he is refused admittance or when necessary to liberate himself or a person aiding him in the execution of the warrant.5

Some jurisdictions enacted legislation providing for so-called no-knock warrants. However, controversy precipitated by no-knock warrants resulted in Congress' repealing the federal no-knock statute in 1974. Only a few states currently have statutes authorizing no-knock warrants.

(snip)


UNDERLYING RATIONALE FOR KNOCK AND ANNOUNCE

The Supreme Court has determined that "every householder, the good and the bad, the guilty and the innocent, is entitled to the protection designed to secure the common interest against unlawful invasion of the house."19 The knock and announce rule provides citizens with psychological security, knowing that one need not fear an unexpected intrusion. Privacy interests also are protected, avoiding unnecessary embarrassment, shock, or property damage resulting from an unannounced entry.

The rule serves to protect both the individual citizen and the police from the risk of harm and the potential for violence that may occur as a result of an unannounced entry.20 Announcement protects officers by ensuring that they are not "mistaken for prowlers and shot down by a fearful householder."21 Innocent citizens also are protected from law enforcement officers who mistakenly might shoot armed occupants who merely are trying to defend themselves from who they preceive to be armed intruders.

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DerBeppo Donating Member (452 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. but...
the ruling doesn't seem to do away with officers announcing their presence and intention. The police in this case absolutely announced themselves, they just didn't wait long (3 to 5 seconds) afterwards to serve the warrant. This ruling isn't an invitation to go sneaking through airvents or jumping out of closets to serve.

Something like:

"This is the Police! Open up, we have a warrant!"
1...
2...
3...
4...
5...
Break door down.

instead of:

Knock Knock Knock
"This is the Police! Open up, we have a warrant!"
1...
2...
3...


30...?

Is this hide and seek? Does there really need to be a Supreme Court ruling on the number of seconds officers must wait until entering?

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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. Under the prior ruling, the police were supposed to wait
Edited on Thu Jun-15-06 07:54 PM by benEzra
until it was clear that compliance wasn't forthcoming, before making a forcible entry. Later courts tried to chip away at that, but the initial idea was to actually give the subject of the search warrant an opportunity to comply before breaking the door down and making a forcible entry.

Prior to this ruling, the police COULD get a no-knock warrant that allowed them to make a forcible entry without asking/waiting for compliance, if there were legitimate officer safety issues (i.e., known violent criminal), an actual destruction-of-evidence threat (though this exception was often overused), or if the subject of the warrant already knew the police were there and was obviously not going to let them serve the warrant. But the police actually had to JUSTIFY forcible entries, and get permission from a magistrate to stage paramilitary raids as the first resort.

The new ruling turns any warrant into a break-your-door-down-without-waiting-for-an-answer warrant. Can YOU get to your door and open it in 3 seconds? I sure as heck can't. What this ruling says is that even for routine search warrants, police no longer have to give you the opportunity to comply, and they now have blanket authorization to use force (even dynamic entry) as a FIRST resort, not as a last resort.

There used to be this concept in American law of "innocent until proven guilty." The police would have to justify searches ahead of time to a magistrate, and the subject of the search would be treated as a citizen, with rights (not automatically assumed to be a violent criminal to be subjugated) unless there was reasonable cause to believe otherwise. Under this ruling, as I read it, that is no longer the case.
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DerBeppo Donating Member (452 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #53
59. I'm still not sure
why that would negate the relavance or legality of the evidence collected.

do we know if there were any of the issues during the serving of the warrant that would call for an abrupt entry? This article doesn't say, is there any other information about this case? I can't seem to find much other than this same story.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. No-knock warrants existed prior to this ruling...
the difference was that police actually had to JUSTIFY them to a magistrate and obtain permission. Wasn't hard to get if it was actually necessary.

The problem with the new ruling is that it essentially does away with the traditional search warrant, which requires that the subject be given an opportunity to comply before violence is used. Now, violence can be the first option for EVERY warrant, with no need to justify it before a magistrate, if I read the ruling correctly.
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #48
61. And that's what, unfortunately, makes this significant...
...for it establishes that the current SCOTUS has no compunctions about overturning precedents.

Most prior Courts have taken the cautious (and, dare I say it, conservative) position that a matter once decided at the Supreme Court level should not be revisited.

Obviously, this radical Court believes it has the right to throw out precedent whenever it feels like it. What's next? The obvious target would be Roe, but I could also imagine Miranda getting the axe, and even (and this is what really scares me) the recent pre-Alito and pre-Roberts Court's ruling against Bush on the matter of "enemy combatants" (essentially, requiring that their cases be subject to judicial review). If they reverse it, the maladministration could throw anyone into prison for life without any grounds.

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cosmicdot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
49. where would 'no-knock'/'rushing into home' occur ...
if one is living on an estate with private drive behind its own security gate?









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DerBeppo Donating Member (452 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
50. legal buffs may be able to help with this...
obviously there was already evidence of a crime committed or about to be seeing as how the police already had a warrant. Now, was there a way to decide that the evidence seized in the serving of this warrant wouldn't be thrown out over something as inane as the police not waiting--what 20 seconds--before going in the house which they had the legal standing to search?

I see the snowball argument that now that police only have to announce themselves before they enter there may be room for abuse, but in this specific case--which is what was being argued--it sounds like the right call in order to serve justice.

The article is light on facts. What was the crime being investigated and should the case be thrown out on a matter of seconds waited even with the warrant, with an announcement of who they were (sort of eliminating the "what if they think it's an intruder" argument), and with the knowledge that there was critical evidence in the home? Are we really asking for a "time out" or a prescribed amount of time for those being served to hide or destroy evidence? If so, what's reasonable? 10 seconds? A minute? Was there a agreed upon time limit before police would normally serve a warrant?

A lot of questions that I need to go over before I decide whether or not I agree with this or not.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #50
58. If the case is so flimsy that "flushing the evidence"
Edited on Thu Jun-15-06 09:08 PM by benEzra
would let the perpetrator off the hook, then the police have NO business staging a paramilitary raid, which could result in somebody being KILLED.

There are quite a few police officers on the High Road, a board I frequent, and one experienced officer pointed this out in a thread on no-knocks. Destruction of evidence is almost NEVER a legitimate concern, and it was probably the most overused justification for paramilitary raids prior to the new ruling.

Now, of course, the police need no such justification. Under this ruling, EVERY search warrant is a no-knock.

As far as the legal background, please see posts #48 and #53.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
52. Thank the coward "Democrats" who refused to filibuster.
Edited on Thu Jun-15-06 07:08 PM by Dr Fate
Anyone still care to defend the fact that they sided with Bush instead of with us?
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
55. Home invaders or cops? You have a split second to decide.
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laylah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
56. Alito...the one the SPINELESS
Dems wouldn't filibuster, cast the deciding vote. Have I said lately how much I HATE THESE FREAKIN' FACIST PIGS...GAWWWWWWWWWWWWWD!

Jenn
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superconnected Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
57. Well the alitobot is doing it's job.
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