Doctor: Teen pregnancy is nature's way

EDINBURGH, Scotland, June 18 (UPI) -- One of Britain's leading fertility doctors says teenage girls who get pregnant "behind the bike shed" are just obeying nature's law.

Dr. Laurence Shaw set off a controversy with his remarks Sunday night at the annual meeting of the European Society of Human Reproduction and Embryology in Prague, The Czech Republic, the Scotsman reported.

Shaw -- who is deputy medical director of London's Bridge Centre fertility clinic -- said teenage girls should not be automatically condemned when they get pregnant, because females have been programmed by 2 million years of evolution to have babies in their late teens and early 20s, when fertility is at its peak.

He said nature intended for women to bear children when they are young, and for their fertility to diminish while they raise their children.

http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?StoryID=20060618-094933-4519r

More here: http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=895962006

I feel that freepers and releigious zealots who try to stop or prevent people, of any age, from having sex are trying to undermine nature.

It's not natural for people to NOT have sex - sex is necessary for the propagation of the species. That's why God made it so pleasurable....so people will not stop having sex!

...no one else should, either.
...I doubt they've ever had a pleasurable experience.
....thus, they can't understand why others are reluctant ....or incapable -- of practicing "abstinance."
....abstinance remains a ludicrous proposition.

So what if they "can"? I "can" run down the street starkers singing "God save the Queen, she ain't a human being", doesn't mean I will or should. We are not merely animals who act solely on instinct or impulse. And people don't have a life expectancy of 40 anymore. We are advanced enough to understand that in this day and age teenagers have no business having babies. It can ruin both lives. Women in theory can have a baby every 18 months starting at puberty and ending at menopause, doesn't mean it's a good thing.

and shown affection ... they crave affection ... that special connection with another person ... it is an innate need ...

The kids simply need education and birth control ... condoms ... there is no stopping nature or being a teenager ...

WE may be advanced enough, as adults, THEY are experimenting with adulthood and all the freedoms that go with it ...

it didn't ruin her life. it didn't ruin my mother's life. and it wasn't that uncommon 70 years ago.

besides, i don't think the article said women *should* have babies in their teens, just that there is a very ingrained biological drive to do so. also that women shouldn't be *condemned* for getting pregnant.

What pregnant 16 year old is married these days?
(Okay, a Mormon one ...drum roll......:+ )

But seriously, "times have changed" dramatically over the past few decades, so that a pregnant teen is seriously troubled in our culture, just because she is a teenager. (edited for html mix-up)

Yes, there seems to be a very ingrained biological drive for human males to impregnate teen girls/women.

Do teenage girls/women have the same biological drive to be impregnated?

There is not nearly as much difference between girls and guys in this area as social conditioning leads people to imagine. Many young teenage guys are not wanting to actually have sex, even if their hormones are beginning to wake up. Sex is a scary thing at first to a lot of kids, both guys and girls. And there are some girls who are horny little root-rats, just like some guys are. It's just that the guys are more free to boast about it, as for them it's a badge of honour to be a "stud", and "stud" is not exactly the moniker our hypocritical society applies to girls in that situation.

A lack of love can affect things too, as a girl who does not feel loved and accepted is much more likely to have sex in an effort to make a boy love her, or to repay what she imagines is love.

No-one is saying that girls should get pregnant, any more than acknowledging the likelihood of road fatalities means that we want them to happen. But understanding the strength of the urges involved, and the inevitability that it will sometimes happen, is vital, if society is to find a way to cope with the problem.

This means that society needs to educate kids better about birth-control, provide easily accessible contraception, provide easily accessible "day after" pill and abortions, and, for the ones who get pregnant anyway, free child care so they can complete their studies and support their children. There is also a need for home-studies options and counseling for new mothers, as is already provided, (in Australia) to kids with long term illnesses.

The best investment a society can make is to bring up its children to be proud and well educated, able to support themselves and their dependants in the future, and thus able to contribute to the continuing improvement of society.

"We are not merely animals who act solely on instinct or impulse."

Yes, we are.

Denying this fact keeps the pharmaceutical companies rolling in the big money selling anti-depressants and such. People who are taught to disregard the fact that they are mammals get lost sometimes in a "society" that feels the view of academia somehow are above the laws of humanity.

"in this day and age teenagers have no business having babies"

Who are you to decide that?

I think one of the largest problems with our society is that we have unnaturally extended childhood well beyond what God and Nature intended...

We should not have created a society where everyone has to be a scholar to realize the American dream... a willingness to work hard used to be sufficient. Now we force young adults to sit in classrooms and earn "degrees" when they should be out apprenticing, earning, and starting their families the way young adults have throughout the ages.

Instead, we have this underclass of "drop-outs" that live a life of poverty and crime, knowing they will never be "good enough" to be accepted by our society, and we have millions of "illegal immigrants" doing the Jobs Americans Don't Want. When my grandmother was growing up in Arkansas, trainloads of 15-16 year olds would travel to Washington to pick apples to earn money. These same people married at 16-17, and went on to have happy lives and families. Has so much changed in this time, and is it really a better world now?

I know people pushing forty with small children that wish to the Goodness they would have had them twenty years ago...

Your way leads to human extinction.

Instead, we have this underclass of "drop-outs" that live a life of poverty and crime, knowing they will never be "good enough" to be accepted by our society, and we have millions of "illegal immigrants" doing the Jobs Americans Don't Want

Or we have a couple of generations who are not drop-outs who HAVE the degrees, but still have this attitude that they shouldn't have to work hard, that the certain amenities should just be handed to them by virtue of the fact that they are americans who have degrees. These are also the people who refuse jobs that they feel are "beneath them". Such entitlement!

> We are advanced enough to understand that in this day and age
> teenagers have no business having babies.

How do you actually *KNOW* teeenagers have no business *HAVING*
babies? Have you ever researched it? Has anyone?

Maybe (just to toss out one hypothesis) what we need is a society
where the teenagers *HAVE* the babies and the babies are then raised
communally by everyone including the 30-somethings, the middle-agers,
and the crones? Maybe that would produce physically-healthier babies
(by being born to optimally-fertile young women and men) as well as
*MENTALLY-HEALTHIER* kids (by being raised by a wide range of people,
not just their immediate parents). And then, maybe letting the kids
have sex when they start wanting it might contribute further to their
ultimate sanity? As compared to telling them to wait an arbitrary
number of years "until they're ready"?

Or to toss out another hypothesis: Maybe we should just assure that kids
have access to birth control and appropriate information about STDs?
After all, nowadays, having sex (the actual primal drive) doesn't
necessarily translate to having babies, except in the minds of
religious whackjobs.

Tesha

Over and over and over for the last 40 years. There are piles of statistics, studies and papers about teen-aged motherhood and none of it is good. Futhermore, no birth control is 100%. What that means in the real world is that out of a population of teen-agers using birth control, there WILL be unplanned pregnancies. Now when did anybody ever say THAT in sex ed class. NEVER. Yes, sex does translate to having babies and NOT telling teen-agers that one fact is one of the greatest failings of this generation of adults. If someone doesn't put any emotional value on sex, that's their right. But every human being should recognize that there is a possiblity of a baby, every single time they have sex, and being connected to that sex partner for the rest of their life is also a very real possibility. I think if people faced reality about sex and babies, they wouldn't be quite so flippant about it.

The suggestion I made was that we allow the teens to bear the
children and then we *ALL* raise them. That's a much different
scenario than the typical American "teen mom" disaster.

Tesha

recent history as law. Historically grandmothers have been the ones to "babysit" while the young mothers worked, but now social pressures leave no-one to baby-sit, and we wonder why kids are growing up confused and angry.

I would say that "teen sex is nature's way". There is no reason it should be unprotected sex or lead to pregnancy.

Remember, they used to stone unwed women who got pregnant. Sex is probably the most powerful drive humans have. I didn't read him as telling teens to get pregnant, I read it as him telling parents to get real and get their kids acquainted with birth control and safe sex instead of harping about morality.

animals and have higher brain functions and the capacity to sublimate our sexuality.

> We ... have ... the capacity to sublimate our sexuality.

That belief explains a lot about Republicanism. They're
a bunch of affection-starved people who think they can
sublimate their sexuality.

And they do, sublimating right into Hummers, guns,
torture, tanks, and intercontinental, nuclear-tipped
balistic missiles.

We'd all be a lot safer if they had their orgasms the
old-fashioned way.

Tesha

Teens should have sex if AND ONLY IF


--They are fully aware of all of the possible emotional and physical
consequences of having sex, and are mature enough to accept those
consequences without reliance upon any other persons to help them out;

AND

--They can financiallly afford, on their own to pay the costs of such
consequences without reliance on parental or governmental intervention
of any type.


My mother used to say that if one wants to dance to the music, then one must be
prepared to pay the piper. That adage applies in this case. Sex is not a form of
recreation--it is a serious business. It isn't something that a person should
undertake lightly because at least one other person is involved. If a teen thinks that
they are entitled to have sex, then one must fully accept all responsibility
for whatever happens as a result. Don't ask your parents to help you out with the
baby. Don't ask them for money for the abortion. Don't seek financial assistance
to help pay the doctor bills associated with the STD you got. Pay your own doctor
bills. Don't go to the Department of
Public Welfare (Public Assistance, Family Assistance or whatever) for financial
help. Don't seek or ask for any special help or assistance that you cannot afford to
pay for or get for yourself. Sex is the responsibility of the two parties involved.
It is entirely the couple's business, start to finish, and no one else.

This is what I was taught, and this is what I have taught my teenage daughter. I have
never told her not to have sex, but I have discussed all possible consequences. I have
also let her know that her father and I will not be "picking up the pieces for her" should
something go awry. She has been informed that it is up to her, but that she'd better
think hard before doing it.

This is true. My body 10 years ago would have been much better for having a baby. I'm 30 and am in no way ready to have a baby any time soon. My mother had me at 35 years old in 1975. She was considered a high-risk pregnancy due to her age. Thankfully, due to medical advances and a better understanding of the human body, women can healthily have babies in their 40s, but it is riskier than when a woman is 20.

However, that being said, our society frowns upon teen pregnancy due to education and emotional/financial support for the baby. Therefore, just because our bodies can do something doesn't mean it's the best decision. There are many women who have babies young and are wonderful mothers who raise wonderful children, but it just seems like it would be so much harder. I am a teacher. I have had many, many students with very young parents. The mothers always comment on how hard it was to be a young mother.

"Society may 'tut tut' about them, but their actions are part of an evolutionary process that goes back nearly two million years; while their behaviour may not fit with western society's expectations, it is perhaps useful to consider it in a wider context." I think the doctor makes perfect sense. He is taking an look at a situation that considers the biology of women and the evolutionary history of childbearing that really wasn't that long ago.

Kids may be growing up faster biologically (they're reaching adolescence at a younger age), but their emotional growth lags behind. By the time a girl is 12 or a boy is 14, a kid is capable of being a biological parent. Emotionally and mentally, they still have some growing up to do; thus, they're not ready to raise that kid because they're still kids themselves.

Teens are very unlikely to remain with their partners for life; teen love is very intense. Even the breakups are intense--you should hear the names kids call their exes after a breakup!

Brain scans show that teens' frontal lobes are not fully developed; therefore, the kids haven't formed the maturity and judgment needed to temper the intensity of sexual passion.

we were and my parents were. Many (not all, of course) children today spend many hours being entertained, not having to necessarily work to keep food on the table. I taught third grade for years. I was constantly stunned at the immaturity and silliness that goes on. My little experience with older teenagers terrifies me that this is the future. And now, I've heard stories of parents of college age kids calling the professors, angry that their child didn't get an "A." I can't imagine my parents calling my college professor when I didn't earn an "A" (and I didn't always earn an A. Sometimes we have to work harder or simply learn to accept that not all teachers or professors are fair and that is the reality of life.)

I still agree with the assessment of the biology and can't disagree with him since he wasn't advocating teenage pregnancy, merely stating the biological/evolutionary reasons of teen pregnancy. I think many people often forget about the biological reasoning for things (such as ADD/ADHD, for example), thereby avoiding the root cause and a real solution.

brains are undeveloped or are their brains undeveloped because they act like children? Or are both caused by something different?

I don't think anyone here would give a baby to an average 15 year old to take care of, but 100 or 200 years ago 15 year old women were running households by themselves with small children to boot. And I can promise you running a household in those days was no mean task.

So what has changed? Why are 15 year olds today a bunch of goof balls? I strongly suspect that it's because, for better or worse, they're allowed to be goof balls, and we should not make assumptions about cause and effect when looking at brain chemistry.

If you want to be a weight lifter, first you lift weights, and then you become strong.

If we want our children to be resposible, first we must give them responsibilities.

Look at any kid who is more resposible than their peers, and you will see a kid who has already has responsiblities.

1.) Many children in developed countries, and particularly in the U.S., are bombarded with various growth hormones via the food they eat (beef, dairy products, chicken, etc.). This affects their own biological maturity. A few generations ago, girls did not routinely reach puberty until 16 or even later; a sexually active and/or pregnant 12-year-old would have been unheard of.

2.) If "Nature" didn't intend teen-agers to get pregnant, they wouldn't get pregnant. Ovulation, copulation, fertilization, and gestation are natural functions of the female human body. When, however, nature is subverted, as with the growth hormones fed to cattle and chickens that are then consumed by humans, pregnancy becomes unnatural. The physical maturity of a 12-year-old girl's body isn't sufficient -- size, bone structure, circulatory capacity -- to gestate a fetus safely or adequately. The dangers to the immature mother and a potentially poorly developed fetus are higher than if the mother is physically mature.

3.) "Teen-agers have no business getting pregnant" is an observation on the culture they are having babies in, not their biology. If our culture provided social and economic support for teen-aged parents, none of this would be a problem. The problem is in how we treat young mothers and their children.

4.) We've actually made some strides in this direction in terms of allowing young mothers to remain in school, keep their babies, and have some chance of remaining fully within the social structure. When I was in high school, a girl who got pregnant was immediately removed from the premises and denied any chance of completing her education. She was usually forced/pressured into a marriage that might have been unwanted by her and/or her baby's father. If neither of them had good job prospects, the family was doomed to failure.


Sexuality is indeed natural, and when the social fabric wraps nature in a loving embrace, people tend to be naturally content and happy. When the social wars with the natural, problems can arise.


Tansy Gold, early morning philosopher

Two or three generations ago people didn't have the luxury of being "teenagers". They went straight from childhood into the working class; girls became mothers and that was that.

Biology has not changed, society has. The war against "teens having sex" ludicrous. It is natural...our job is to prepare and protect them if they do.

but it would be fun to watch if he did.

dp

they fell in love!:rofl:

but that doesn't mean that we can't modify it or shift its course as we see fit.

Plagues, cancer, influenza are all nature's way. That is not to compare those things with pregnancy but only to point out that through nature man evolved to a point where we can alter our environment and make choices.

A whole lot of nature's way isn't where we really want to go. Controlling fertility is just one of many things our 'evolved' intelligence has given us the power to do.

Mz Pip
:dem:

I think he would also admit what he said was poorly framed but his point is well taken. Perhaps if we explained to our young daughters exactly how much of a gigantic conflict this really is (nature vs nurture) then they wouldnt be so completely overwhelmed when the hormones and emotions kick in at 15 or 12. As evolved a womans adult life rarely had periods since they remained nearly continuously pregnant from 14 or younger until death which was usually due to childbirth.

abstinence only is a really dumb idea. Telling teens not to have sex without giving them any more than some moral platitudes is only going to end with more teen pregnancies.

I like my way better. I pretty much told my boys when they were teenagers that it would certainly be better if they didn't have sex until they were older, but if they did I just wanted to be sure they didn't make me a grandmother. And here is what they needed to know to prevent that from happening. Information is power.

It worked.

Mz Pip
:dem:

:yourock:

They are 29 ands 27 and seem to be pretty clear about what family planning is all about. :-)

Mz Pip
:dem:

Teens did marry all the time. Where they as mature physically as teens today? Have those growth hormones that are put into todays meat supply made our youth more fertile at an earlier age then our ancestors?

and that was in Peru many decades ago where there were no processed foods

http://www.snopes.com/pregnant/medina.asp

yep four

Abornomal puberty, it's highly unusual, very rare, but it can and does happen.

multiple wives because of it.

Just saying.

> In the covered wagon days, women died in childbirth regularly. Men had
> multiple wives because of it.

It's always interesting to walk around an old New England graveyard.
You see a *LOT* of gravestones where "Sarah, loving wife of Ebenezer
Smith died in the 23rd year of her age" and such like, often with a
second much smaller stone describing the baby who died at that same
time. Childbirth was a very big killer of women.

Tesha

:(

The British really are amazing.

It hasn't made the news in the UK anywhere other than the links cited in the OP. What do you mean by "the British really are amazing"?

...I watched the teenager go through a lot. Pregnant at 17 in this culture is difficult. Social stuff aside, I think 100 years ago there wasn't the expectation that a woman, say, complete high school.

Her baby came about two weeks after graduation. And it was nearly impossible for her to stay focused enough to pull off that diploma. A few weeks on either side would've been nearly impossible.

I would argue no one should be "automatically condemned." Sort of a silly statement. :)

Edited for sleepy fingers.

this doctor is a misogynist (woman hater). it's disheartening how many doctors are chauvinist.

they can have sex all they want if they take precautions.

stupidy gets them pregnant and if they keep the pregnancy - mostly leads to an unfulfilled life.

He said that girls who get preganant shouldn't be condemned out of hand- and he made several TRUE and objective statements about biology. How is that chauvinistic?

get pregnant. women are more then baby machines.

he should have leaned heavy on educating young girls to the facts of their bodies and the facts of life. not say a teenage girls body is meant to get pregnant.

male sperm goes through changes too

nobody is holding classes teaching men the facts of their bodies and women's bodies. lot of ignorance going round.

Teenagers' brains are simply NOT completely developed ... All that these very young women understand is that they want something of their very own ... a boyfriend, a baby, a life ... call it what you want ... they have the desire and little reason to control it ... They've had their parents telling them no to this and that since they could crawl and now that their hormones are running wild they finally have something that they "feel" in control of ... they're not, of course, and hard lessons usually follow their behavior, but I defy anyone to stop a horse running wild with this kind of desire ... education cannot stop passion or even begin to compete with it ...

there are many, many educated teen girls who have protected sex - don't get pregnant or get STDs/aids. because they have been educated.

purity rings is not education

the only thing purity rings do is raise the living standard of jewelers.

but if we had REAL public schools even the poor and disadvantaged would not be ignorant about sexual affairs.

who use birth control as long as it SUITS them and when, in their own dreamy little teenage mind, they decided they want to get pregnant ... even if the dream only lasts one night ... Guess what? ... they get pregnant ...

The moon was full, the music was right, he looked into her eyes just that way, and she just knew he had to be her's forever ...

Things always look different in the morning ... or directly after they fail the pregnancy test and REALITY starts to sink in ...

You are trying to apply logic to passionate teenagers ... good luck ... LOL!

Most of my girlfriends who were teenagers in the late 60's are NOW Grandmothers ... and we had abortion in California in 1972 and birth control pills before that ...

Passion still won the battle ...

Try as I have to educate the young ladies around me ... when they "fall in love" reason and logic flys out the window ... "on the wings of a snow white dove" ... ';-)

maybe because back then abortion wasn't legal. it cost a lot and mostly would kill you.

religious familes would put the pregnant girl out or into a 'girls home'

a few times my parents mentioned where I would be sent if I was 'bad'.

I agree that today's teenagers are brainwashed beyond repair by the TV and religion.

My Grandmother's youngest sister was the very first bride in our small town church, 1902, and she was pregnant (not by the man she married either hush, hush) ... The old saying goes, "The first baby comes whenever it wants ... The second baby takes NINE months" ...

A few years ago when my niece starting picking out baby names in them middle of her third year at The University I offered to send her ANYWHERE in the world for the sake of her "field studies" ... thankfully it worked, she graduated, married, and now at nearly 27 they are just beginning to discuss the possiblity of extending their family ... her mother gave birth to her when she was barely 19 (by the way) ... she is brilliant ... A MENSA mind didn't stop "love" ... gag ...

Passion is illogical ... fear does help ...

I tell the young ladies in my life, "When you have a baby you are giving your life to someone else ... your life as you know it now is OVER ... SECOND to their needs ... their's is FIRST" ...

Be honest with them ... it's all there is in the face of such insanity ... LOL!

here about the youngest (yet) teeenage mother - although she hasn't had the baby yet. But the story was all over one of the British tabloids. There was a thread on DU about it which had a lot of really vile comments about this girl - 'whore' was one of the nicer things she was called. I think the doctor is just saying girls should not be vilified if they do get pregaant - which I'm is a sentiment you'd agree with.

NT!

the boys (or maybe men?) doing the impregnating.

It's as if the girls got pregnant all by themselves!:think:

...that this statement is even controversial. Why do folks think humans evolved sexual maturation during the early part of their second decade? For moral torment? Our biology is the product of millions of years of adaptation. Our social constraints are MUCH more recent, change much more quickly than our biology, and are NEVER uniform anyway.

Humans are meant to start making babies in their teens. That doesn't mean that it's always a good idea to do so, or even necessary for folks who do want to reproduce anymore (the human lifespan has also nearly doubled due to social influences on medicine, risk management, etc). But in the evolutionary milieu that produced Homo sapians, beginning to have babies by fifteen or sixteen was the best way to ensure their survival to their own adulthood. It's silly to suggest otherwise. Why would we evolve maladaptive sexual maturation patterns?

Beginning in elementary school, with freely available condoms & contraceptives from middle school on. Keeping sexually mature children ignorant of their own biology causes teen pregnancies.

Constantly ... they should not be left alone together for much longer then it takes to watch a movie ... the key is safety in numbers and CHAPERONES ... constant parental supervision ... surveillance ...

actually know what goes on inside young girl's heads.:eyes:

I wonder why everyone is being so "cutesy" about this subject?
You are all assuming that all of these girls were willing partners!

Hmmmmm "Abortions among under-16s have reached record levels"......

I don't know of many horny 13 year-old girls out there, do you?
On the contrary women's sex drives get stronger when they get older then that,
like in their 40's.

I think this doctor is full of shit.
What a Chauvanist!

Why is he still focusing on girls anyway and not guys at all?
How OldSchool is that?

I think he should be thinking about the guys who are doing the impregnating.
Who are they, and how old are they?
I would bet that they're not all teenagers!

Inquiring minds would like to know!}(

at 14 ... some even younger ... I wish it weren't true, but I'm very close to my nieces and they, also, are shocked at how young it begins ... and these girls, that I know, are willing participants ...



"I don't know of many horny 13 year-old girls out there, do you?" Megahurtz' question ...


I do ... it's not as rare as you'd think ... I know 13 year old girls that are 5'6" with all the curves who are constantly mistaken for 16 year olds ... waist length hair, makeup, Juicy designer clothes ... and, baby, you've got trouble ... !!

Go to an amusement park ... Six Flags, Silverwood, any of them this summer ... and watch ... you'll be shocked how "active" they are at such young ages ...

and that's what you are not opening your eyes to.

:wtf: So I guess to you if a girl wears certain clothes that means that she's horny?

Wow, you sound OldSchool too.:(

I knew girls, I grew up with in them in the 70's, who had step-fathers or "uncles" who impregnated them and we'd pool our money to pay for their abortions ... I am not naive ... not by a long shot ... one kid hung herself ...

I am talking about girls I know ... today ... who are sexually active because they choose to be ... it's a sport for some of them ... like baseball is for boys .... chasing boys is a sport for young aggressive girls with no parental supervision ... they long for someone to love or just long for the attention ... but they have to be watched ...

One friend of mine warned her son to put his own condom on because some of these young girls will tear a tiny hole in the end of it if you let them do it ... danger, danger, danger ...

The mice will play while the cat's away ...

are all sexually active, you think because of the way they dress? That's ridiculous!

After all it's their fault because you "know 13 year old girls that are 5'6" with all the curves who are constantly mistaken for 16 year olds ... waist length hair, makeup, Juicy designer clothes ... and, baby, you've got trouble ... !!"

"Baby you've got trouble"???:wtf:

Maybe they should wear burkas. :sarcasm:

They are teenage girls and for many of them it's a game ... they are not adults ... they think it's "cool" to know how to give a BJ at 13 years old ... I think they have absent parents ...

And I'm a liberal lady who loves the young kids in her life ... I just want to protect them from diseases ... like cervical cancer ... and the burden of having children early ...

They wear string bikinis ... I doubt they'd buy your burka ... but enjoy your sarcasam ...

Kids are active younger and younger these days ... and need to be protected ... sex education begins at 10 years old now, because the schools are trying to stay ahead of them ... I was surprised too ... I went to have the conversation with my 10 year old niece and she told me "They already teach us that in school" ... ?

and I will also throw in family planning, but I think you're a little out in left field
about all young girls being so obsessed with sex like it's a game.
You talk about all these young girls being sexually "active" in your eyes
but all I am hearing from you is that you see it in the way they dress.
So do you also think that if they wear string bikinis that means they are sexually active?:wtf:

I guess you obviously didn't get my burka comment.:dunce:

When I asked you how you know they are all sexually active
you say they brag about it like it's a game but you never really answered my question.
Who are "they" and who are they bragging to?
To you?

I don't know where in the world you live, but whatever you imagine in your mind
is not all young girls.
I think young girls should be given a little more credit than the picture you paint
as I believe that their interests way go behond sex.
I live in a very liberal area and the majority of young girls here
don't act anywhere near to what you portray.

You tell me you are a "Liberal Lady" but you sound much more "Old Fashioned" to me.:P

It's bragging, there are no limits ... and yes, some of them trust me, and tell me what's going on with their friends at school and with themselves ... they are bragging and scared too ... they have questions ...

I tell them that this "hooking up" thing will pass ... they may want to not be involved and watch the mistakes other kids are making ... "hooking up" is dangerous ... IMHO ... maybe you dig it ... I don't think it's a wise decision ...

The string bikini comment was ONLY in response to your suggestion of a burka ... these young ladies dress themselves, some already MAKE their own clothes, and wouldn't be interested in your "burka suggestion" ...

AND I didn't say ALL young girls ... I said the ones with ABSENT parents are having sex younger and younger ...

I'm on the Central Coast in California ... a Native Californian ... I was 13 years old in 1969 and enjoyed that time and EVERYTHING that went with it ... still do ... CSNY are touring this year and I'll be there, again, yes even at Woodstock in August this year ...

Visit any beach or amusement park and you'll see love in full bloom ... earlier and earlier ...

Each to his own ... you raise your kids and I'll raise mine ... and yes ... I take them to CSN and CSNY concerts with me ... I go to Five For Fighting concerts with them ... csny.net for concerts in your area this summer!! ...

http://www.vh1.com/artists/az/five_for_fighting/artist.jhtml?popThis=popVideo(92014) The Riddle premiers tomorrow ...

you still didn't "get" what I meant by the burka comment!:dunce: Sheesh!

}(

I invited you to "enjoy your sarcasam" ... I got it ... maybe you missed subtle reply ...

Organized religion is the biggest lie ever perpetrated on mankind, IMHO ... I'd be the last to support ISLAM or any religion ... ever ... let alone ever tell these young ladies how to dress ...

The ones with NO parental supervision are SOMETIMES (not always) "working the room" and they're wardrobe can be (NOT ALWAYS) very provocative, in some cases, ... tattoos, navel rings, nose rings, amazing stuff for young teenagers ... they know what they are wearing, or not wearing, and the effects it has on boys ... one of my nephews calls them PT (prick teasers) ... maybe so ... at any rate ... my kids love hanging with me, sometimes, and going to concerts ... feel safe and loved ... even though I suggest they turn off the TV, the computer, and crank up classic rock from time to time ... we enjoy each other ... so maybe all of this has brought us closer together ....

the burka was used to cover up a female from a man's eyes so he wouldn't have sexual thoughts.

As if the woman is to blame for his own thoughts!

That kind of thinking is what let's a rapist off in a rape trial if the jury thinks
that the woman (or girl) "asked for it" by dressing provocatively.
That kind of thinking sadly still prevails today.:(

I go to Punk Rock concerts sometimes with my daughter although she sees
some underground Bands lately that are way over my head. :crazy::headbang:
:party: But the Green Day concert was a blast, with Blink 182 and Jimmy Eat World.:beer:

It's a good thing if you are close enough with your kids
that you can go to concerts and shows together!

And if the Mosh Pit doesn't bring you closer together I don't know what will!:crazy::silly:

doen't have MOSH PITS ... CSNY, CSN, Dave Matthews, BB King ... the longest lines are usually at the coffee shacks ... I like Shoreline Ampitheater in Mountain View and reserved seating ... these bones need to sit once in awhile ..

Bridge is my favorite concert of the year ... and it's a fundraiser for handicapped kids ...

http://www.bridgeschool.org/events/ev_stills.html

A couple weeks ago we took them to see Andre Bocelli in San Jose ... the blind tenor and an amazingly talented man ...

She and my grandfather, age 16, had already been married a year. They continued having children (3 more) until 1935, 27 years after the first.

It wasn't a rare occurrence at all at the time.

Plus ça change ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2344815&mesg_id=2345520


My Greatgrandparents had 13 kids and started at a young age also ...

>>>I don't know of many horny 13 year-old girls out there, do you?

There would seem to be alot of them

I would say you are about right. I think sometimes the girls can be worse than the boys!

Thank stars my kids are in their 20s now. Let's be realistic people, everybody's horny when they are teenagers!!! Don't you REMEMBER?? I do. :D

..shouldn't make any decisions about male psychology, as well? Or does the apparent ignorance of people to understand one gender only go one way? Nice bit of sexism you have there.

We may want to screw every good looking person walking down the street, but fortunately we have the smarts to prevent us from doing that.

lifespans were shorter in days gone by...and if a woman had children sequentially, at a young age, there was a possibility that some of THEM would survive childhood and procreate while Mum was still alive to show them how to raise their kids.

In recent years, we have "evolved" faster than our bodies could accommodate.. Teenagers have bodies that tell them to procreate, but society has changed and the nuclear family has changed too.. When people were small village dwellers, there were lots of women who had children, and were there in a helping capacity.. It DOES take a village to raise a child..

The seclusion that so many young mothers face, is the hardest task for them..They often have no partner to help, and sometimes their parents are less than helpful..

In agrarian societies, even small children can and DO help with daily life chores, but we don;t live that way anymore. No matter how you slice it, children are often an additional burden for a young person who's not ready to face adult life...and an impediment to finding that "perfect mate" they hope for. Step-families are common these days, but a 24 yr old woman who dropped out of high school at 15 to have a baby, and who may have added another one at 19 with a different father, is NOT likely to be attracting a "quality" Dad for her kids..

first, there's Sublimation or channeling the sexual energy that's opening up in teens into other activities.

This is why after school activities are so important to fund for our kids. Kids who're active in hobbies and sports tend to have less sex. They're busy using their Life Force in other ways.

It's not "Just Say No".. .it's providing outlets for our Energy to express itself.

We didn't just evolve bodies that menstruate and may get pregnant as teens... we've evolved our brains and consciousness to channel the hormones and energy where we CHOOSE.

Children must be taught to make a Conscious Choice about what and how they're going to use their Life Force. It's just like Gold. You can squander it on crap that lasts for a minute or you can invest in things that are really worth while.

On other words, VALUES. Teaching kids about VALUE and VALUES.

And Culture evolves along with our bodies. You can't seperate out these things. Although Reductionists and Materialists often try to.

of trouble. While teen sex is not necessarily bad, teen pregnancy is. It forces the parents to make career and life decisions that will most likely damage the lives of all involved. For example, if the couple that brings the child into this world stays together, that's a big if, they will have to take on part time jobs instead of staying in school and thus their ability to make enough money to adequately raise the child will be hampered. Don't bother giving me the exceptions, everyone here knows that this is true in the overwhelming majority of cases.

Does anyone seriously disagree with this part of his statement:

Shaw -- who is deputy medical director of London's Bridge Centre fertility clinic -- said teenage girls should not be automatically condemned when they get pregnant, because females have been programmed by 2 million years of evolution to have babies in their late teens and early 20s, when fertility is at its peak.

I don't know the full context of his remarks. But certainly this part makes eminent good sense. Of course teenage girls should not be automatically condemned when they get pregnant. They might be violating social and cultural taboos, but they are definitely following strong biological urges.

I don't believe they should be punished. But encouraged? What kind of future can most of these teenagers provide for these kids? times have changed. yes they prob are following biological urges, but back in the passt, eeducation and a job wasn't a must for raising a child. It's expensive these days. Each baby deserves a good secure future. come on the maturity level in most teenagers these days is not apt to have or raise a child. Have they heard of birth control.... cause they are screwing up their life and the babies..

It was more important than it is today, at least for one of the parents. Today we have a welfare state to support girls who become mothers. Back in the day the choices were underground abortion, adoption, or dire poverty.

People have no business condemning or approving of someone else's pregnancy any more than they have any business judging a woman's choice to terminate it or carry it to term.

That said, I strongly feel that parents have a responsibility to educate their children...to teach them the reality of teenage pregnancy and single parenthood, which they need to be willing to face. And they need to be taught from an early age...before they start hearing bullshit from their peers.

What do you expect. You don't see dogs waiting until a couple of years before menopause to have puppies.

It's nature...roll with it. We're animals. Deal with it.

he acknowledges that sexuality is programmed, that nature doesn't sometimes mix with current culture and that the girls shouldn't be condemned..

it is cultural condemnation that has made young pregnant girls lives miserable.

if anything I would have liked to have had him add more ...like more sex education for these kids would be a good idea and passing out birth control...

and uncomfortable with the concept of their own sexuality they deliberately mis-characterize Dr. Shaw's words.

~~~~~~~~~~

Shona Robison, the SNP's health spokeswoman, whose constituency in Dundee has rates of teenage pregnancy far exceeding the national average, called the remarks "flippant".

"Maybe he should reflect on the effects of teenage pregnancy," she said. "In representing Dundee, I am well aware of the problems teenage pregnancy can cause girls. For many it leads to a life of poverty and a loss of opportunity. I doubt these are the things he would want for his own daughters."

Teresa Smith, chair of the Scottish Christian People's Alliance, said the comments were "completely outrageous".

"Many things are an occurrence within nature but it does not mean they are the right thing to do," she said. "Girls of that age are not mature enough to bring up a baby. If they choose to have an abortion, there are long-term effects.

"Teenagers having sexual activity risk catching chlamydia and causing fertility problems. We should be promoting abstinence, not telling young people this is natural."

~~~~~~~~~~

He was merely voicing a consensus opinion regarding biology and evolution. The foolish moralizing by some plays no part in the process of natural selection. Reproducing at 15 or 16 when a female human is at the peak of health and strength offers advantages for survival and thus benefits the species as a whole. Is such simple logic truly beyond the ken of so many?

that the nature of the parent's repro cells are exactly copied to thier offspring, which is to say that teen pregnancy is indeed nature's way because it ensures that offspring will have a much higher likelihood of producing their own offspring - it's survival 101.

not advocating teen pregnancy or anything, just saying that it's residual instinctual survival behavior from our primate ancestors - survival of the fittest at work. Have children young and your children will have a better chance of having children, and so on and so forth.

(I'm not a biologist, but I understand the process to work something like this. Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

edit: parents' repro cells

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2006/jun/25/learning_be_mothers/?local_news

I must admit I found this article very disturbing. I got the feeling that Our Mother's Home was almost praising, and certainly encouraging, these teenagers to BE mothers. Did they counsel them on birth control? No. How many repeats will they get? The girl in this article seemed to me to be in desperate need of love and was looking for a baby to supply that love.

So many adults are failing these kids.

live longer.

Just saying. He's right, but we need to try to shift away from that.

immediatly upon reading this headline?