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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 01:38 PM
Original message
U.S. Seeks to Block Exits for Iraq Insurgents
Edited on Wed Jun-20-07 01:39 PM by Barrett808
Source: New York Times



United States soldiers in Baquba searched Iraqi men by flashlight early yesterday morning as part of a sweep of the western part of the city. (Scott Nelson/World Picture Network, for The New York Times)


U.S. Seeks to Block Exits for Iraq Insurgents

By MICHAEL R. GORDON
Published: June 20, 2007

BAQUBA, Iraq, June 19 — In more than four years in Iraq, American forces have been confounded by insurgents who have often slipped away only to fight another day. The war in Iraq has been likened to the arcade game of whack-a-mole, where as soon as you knock down one mole another pops up.

Taking the fight to insurgents from Al Qaeda did not so much destroy them in Anbar Province as dislodge them, prompting the fighters to build up their strength elsewhere, including Baquba, the capital of Diyala Province.

So the planners of this latest operation are attempting to plug the holes that have allowed the insurgents to escape in the past. The goal is not merely to reclaim western Baquba from insurgent control, but to capture or kill the estimated 300 fighters to 500 fighters who are believed to be based in that part of the city.

...

By the time dawn broke on Tuesday, the insurgent sanctuary in western Baquba had been cordoned off. Then, the American forces established footholds on the periphery of the section and slowly pressed in. “Rather than let the problem export to some other place and then have to fight them again, my goal is to isolate this thing and cordon it off,” said Col. Steve Townsend, the commander of the Third Stryker Brigade Combat Team, Second Infantry Division.

...

American helicopters dropped leaflets last night urging the residents to stay in their homes. The hope was to keep civilians off the streets while American forces began to close in on the insurgents. The appeal appeared to have little effect, though, as large groups of civilians mingled on the streets Tuesday and some students even sought to go to the local university.




Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/20/world/middleeast/20military.html?em&ex=1182484800&en=5b6e1f7e0d84fb1d&ei=5087%0A



In the photo, those look like some pretty threatening Iraqi "men" the soldiers are searching.
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pwb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. insurgents are not looking to leave.
they live there, they just want the united states out of their country.
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billyoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
2. Sign them up for the U.S. Army.
Then they'll *never* leave...
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killermedic Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. you're right
I think we need a chronological pullout of all our troops from around the world starting with our WWII "liberations." We need to pull out of Germany, Japan, Korea, Bosnia, Kosovo etc.etc. Then we can start the pullout of Iraq.
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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Welcome to DU, km!
:hi:
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killermedic Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. What up Barrett808
Good to be here. Are you or have you been affiliated with the armed services?B-)
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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Well, back in the day, I was commissioned a 2LT in USAF, after 4 years of ROTC
But I never did any active duty time. Thereby lies a tale. :)

So I wouldn't really say I "served" in any significant sense.

Sounds like you're active duty. Glad to have you here.

:toast:
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killermedic Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I can neither confirm nor deny......
I am just glad to be in a place where thought is accepted as the norm.
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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. You'll find plenty of knee-jerk reactions here, but still...
Edited on Wed Jun-20-07 03:58 PM by Barrett808
...I'd say the level of discourse is higher than the average board. And much higher than a certain other board with the initials F.R.
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killermedic Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. I had a question for you!!!
Being left-leaning where right wingers are a dime a dozen you may be able to offer insight as that I have only found anger and resentment from my thoughts here at DU. I hate the idea of an eternal occupation of Iraq but not because of the president who invaded. I find it unnecessary and divisive to the country. I am also not ok with the practice of occupying Kososvo or Bosnia. Why do we not hold our own elected officials(I am not a big fan of either of the Clintons) to a higher standard than we do the "culture of corruption?" Being a person who knows about the military how do you approach those types of arguments whith those who disagree with your ideology. I am being 100% serious!
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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. I think you're asking how to take a principled stance in the face of party loyalty
I'll suggest that there are quite a few folks here at DU who do adhere to principles, even if their opinions are unpopular. You'll certainly find plenty of people here who are not enamored of the Clintons as well.

There are also people who place a higher value on party loyalty, and will tolerate a certain amount of hypocrisy or outright corruption in the interest of furthering the party's power.

My suggestion for debating folks on this board is to take the high road and keep to the issues and policies at hand. Don't do ad hominem attacks. Avoid propping up straw men. If you make a claim, be sure you have well-documented facts at hand. Don't post when angry. If somebody's making a good argument, consider that they may have a better understanding than you. Keep in mind the Buddhist saying, "We must cease to cherish opinions."

You may get some anger and resentment when you take a controversial stance, but we'll all be stronger if you can capably defend your position.

Does that get at the meat of your question?
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killermedic Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Thanks
I have been struggling with that since a comrade asked me a very good question that rattled my cage a little. He asked "why is it ok for us to be in Bosnia and Kosovo(FYI-I have served in both) but not in Iraq(been there too!)? You will never see the Code-Pink ladies or Veterans Against the War protesting the Kosovo occupation or our Bosnian invasion." He also asked if it was all related to a "D" or an "R" next to the Candidtates name. I couldn't answer and thus made us all look uninformed. I have since gathered my facts but I can't seem to "unring the bell."
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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. This gets into the whole intervention versus containment debate
Which, to my mind, remains unresolved. If any situation cries out for intervention, it's the failed state/genocide scenario. For example, it's hard to argue that the world should not have intervened in Rwanda, but the tiny UN force there was driven out, and the disastrous Somalia intervention prevented any US moves. The genocide continued uninterrupted.

Similarly, the Balkans war was clearly another genocidal situation. Should we have intervened -- and using Bin Laden's jihadis as a proxy army, no less? I don't know. Some argue that it was a European problem which should have been handled by Europe, but that sidesteps the question of the UN's role in such matters.

Iraq was a very different situation. It had a functioning state, albeit one that was quite brutal. Genocidal conditions did not pertain, except back in '91, when Bush 42 caused the Shi'a uprising and then abandoned them to Saddam's vengeance. I argue that the only morally defensible policy in such situations is containment.

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killermedic Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. again...
thanks. that was just the answer I needed. being the "bullet-stopping" type, my only real mental weapon is logic and clear logic comes from understanding the whole picture. keep in touch bro!
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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. My pleasure. You stay safe. n/t
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. !
No kidding...

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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-21-07 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
16. Who do they think they're fooling?
If you live in even a moderately-sized town or city (I'll posit a population of 50,000), how many troops or police officers or what-have-you would it take to "cordon off" an insurgent sanctuary? By that, I'm guessing an area of at least 25 blocks (five by five blocks), but probably larger. How many people would it take to make absolutely sure that no one's getting in or out? And how many people would it take to ascertain that everyone inside that area belonged there or was an "insurgent"?

The language is so facile, so blithe, as if securing an urban area were no more complicated than putting the cap back on the ketchup bottle. But then you sit down and start thinking about not just the houses and the driveways and the sidewalks, but the yards and the trees, the spaces between the houses, the fences and the walls, and pretty soon you realize that your adversary -- who is intimately knowledgeable about his own neighborhood, far more familiar with it than you'll ever be -- could be moving a whole lot of people all around you, and you'd never know it.
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