Turkish PM says wants to lift headscarf ban

Source: Reuters

Turkish PM says wants to lift headscarf ban
Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:12am EDT

ANKARA (Reuters) - Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip
Erdogan was quoted in the Financial Times on
Wednesday as saying he wanted to lift the ban on
the Islamic headscarf in universities as part of
a planned constitutional overhaul.

The remarks by Erdogan, whose Islamist-rooted AK
Party won a new five-year mandate in July elections,
could reignite tensions with Turkey's powerful
secular elite, including army generals, which suspects
him of wanting to boost the role of religion.

-snip-

The secularists regard the headscarf as a symbolic
threat to Turkey's separation of state and religion.
They also fear any lifting of the ban would put social
pressure on uncovered women to start wearing the
headscarf in overwhelmingly Muslim Turkey.

But the AK Party says it is a question of freedom
of expression and notes that the garment was only
banned from university campuses in 1982 after a
military coup.

-snip-

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL1918897820070919

n/t

of a freedom people in the U.S. have?

People in Turkey, if they have a beard or a headscarf can't go on a university campus. That is discrimination any way you look at it.

That doesn't change the fact this guy LIED about wanting a secular government - I doubt he would have gotten elected otherwise. Hopefully the military is keeping a close eye.

Wanting to lift a discriminatory ban means he wants an Islamic government?

That's one hell of a stretch of the imagination you have there.

He worked awful hard to convince people he didn't want an Islamic government. I'm suspicious. But I'm sure the Turks can handle it.

And it was just your opinion.

Thanks for clearing that up.

word secular there different than we do.

To them secular means upholding Kamalism and a complex set of social/cultural items. The Turkish government is completely Islamic. They are the ones who send out the literature for Mosque's to cover in their lectures on Friday's (khutba's). The Turkish government funds Islamic cultural centers all over the world where Turks now live. I live within fifteen minutes of 3 of them here in the United States, and have attended each one of them at different times (as a Muslim not a Turk :-).

Anyway, in as much as I know about their system, he is merely moving towards a few reforms, like the crazy can't where a head scarf, can't have a beard laws, and this is supported by the people. Hence his big election win. Note the minority religious groups and ethnic groups in Turkey also support him because they are gaining much more freedom than before. Freedom in areas like being able to speak and teach their ethnic languages and perform their own ethnic and religious practices.

All of this is part of popular reform. It doesn't have anything to do with it being an Islamic state because Turkey is already very much an Islamic state with Islam supported by the government.

The military isn't going to do anything, their worry right now is what may possibly become a war with Northern Iraq.

He never hid the fact that he's for an Islamic government. Any and all platitudes aside, if it quacks....

is anyone really surprised?

Religious government bad. Thankfully the generals seem to have their eye on him.

Muslim headscarfs are banned, but crosses and other Christian ornaments are not.

That's discrimination.

And you're showing support for it.

Separation of state and mosque is the relevant issue for the Turks.

One of those "all Muslims are terrorists" kind.

It's discrimination.


Turkey's biggest problem are from the Kurds who are NOT Muslims.

I'm talking about the attitude of Turkish secularists. They see Islam as a threat to the secular nature of their state. They do not have any reason to see Christianity in that light.

Don't make silly assumptions about me, and perhaps you'll be able to understand my post.

Why is everyone yelling fire in a crowded theatre?

What happened to rational thought when it comes to Muslims?

the separation of church/mosque and state very seriously. Anything smacking of a state sponsored religion is viewed (rightly, in my opinion) with suspicion.

It doesn't make sense.

Come back and yell fire when he tries to ban crosses and other Christian related ornaments.

Islam isn't that way.

That being said, Turkey does already sponsor Islam. Nice try, go read a book.

And the Kurds are not Muslims.

I guess you and I have different definitions of what constitutes a threat.

Kurds are one of the most religious is Turkey.

But they are not Islamic Muslims.

especially the ones in Turkey. Many kurds are members of sufi orders in Turkey. While western Turkey is modern where women dress open like the europeans the kurds in eastern Turkey are closed. Many women there also wear burqas.

what a shame

"freedom of expression" my ass, bigots who want women marked out as inferior have every freedom of expression as it is

1. Banning head scarves just makes observant Muslims more eager to wear them. If the authorities don't make a fuss, it won't be so important to rebel by wearing them.
(cf. The way Oregon handled the Old Believers who didn't want to send their children to high school versus the way Iowa handled the Amish who didn't want to send their children to high school.)

2. For those who support banning head scarves, would you also support banning the wearing of yarmulkes by observant Jewish men or the wearing of head scarves by observant Jewish married women?

Funny how no one who supports the ban responded to your question.

I knew Erdogan was going to be trouble.

all their lives.


Mustafa Kemal's mother

n/t

buildings NOT on street!

How many boxes are left before the army tosses him?

Here is a Commie site talking about Turkey, Islam and Secularism, basically the people yelling "Secularisms" supported Islam as long as Islam supported they control of the Country. Once Islam was tied in with reforms in Turkey (i.e. Land reforms, stripping large land holders of their land and giving it to peasants) the Leadership came to oppose Islam: Please note this is from Communist radical site and as such very much Marxist in attitude, but a good source of information on the relationship between the Ruling elite of Turkey and Islam:
http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/oct1999/turk-o06.shtml

The problems with Turkey is that since the War Greek-Turkish was of 1920-1923 Turkey has made an effort to be a "Turkish" nation. The ruling elite, tied in with the Army, wants to preserve its status and does not care who it hurts as it does so. Here are some examples form the Past:

The pogrom against the Greeks of Istanbul, most of who hard lived in the City since BEFORE the Turkish taking of the City in 1453:

The Istanbul anti-Greek Pogrom of 1955 (Which was against the Greeks still living in Istanbul). This was part of the movement of over 200,000 Greeks in Istanbul to less then 5000 today:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul_Pogrom

The Greek-Turkish war of 1919-1922, The Turks won the War when Britain and France changed from Supporting the Greeks, their allies during WWI, to supporting the Turks when the Greeks voted to keep as their King Constantine I, who had pro-German attitude during WWI:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Turkish_War_%281919-1922%29

As to Religion, it is still the law in Turkey that the Patriarch of Constantinople (His proper title, even through the City was re-Named Istanbul in 1923) be a Turkish Citizen, but he must reside in Istanbul. The Turks keep the Patriarch in position for technically he is head of ALL Orthodox NOT under an independent Bishops. Thus that part of Greece that became independent in 1830 is under the Religious leadership of the bishop of Athens, but those parts of Greece added afterward are still under the Patriarch. Greek Orthodox in the US are also under the Patriarch (Which is probably why the Patriarch has been forced to stay in Constantinople since 1923). For more on the Patriarch see:.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_of_Constantinople

My point is that this is NOT religious in nature, but one of Control. The people claiming "Secularism" are the same people who advocated the Anti Greek Riots and pro-Islamic movement in the past. Once the Communist threat was removed in the 1970s, reformers migrated to the Radical Islams who have since embraced the need for Radical reforms in Turkey, reform the leadership of Turkey oppose (Including land reform and a better distribution of the wealth of the Nation).

The first link is from a radical communist site it should not be taken serious.
The greek army had no business in Turkey in 1922, the greeks invaded Turkey killing thousands the greek army devastated hundreds of villages. Men were killed, women raped the greek army paid a huge price for that. The greeks have no business in Turkey, they should leave Turkey alone!